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Ventus Tatshima

[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

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anyone made a guide/tutorial on sin? would love to check it out and up my gameplay.

Yeah, check the Wiki. There's a lot of great info; I've definitely lost track of time reading all the stuff there:)

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I have a question regarding Sin's combo options.  (the videos I'm using as examples are 1.1 Xrd)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdVG-ZnlSms&feature=youtu.be&t=7m55s

Here, after 6H, the player does 623+S in the middle of the combo

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdVG-ZnlSms&feature=youtu.be&t=8m14s

In this portion, after 6H the player goes for a jump cancel > j.S

 

My question is, when is it appropriate to do 623+S and when is it appropriate to do a jump cancel combo?  Does it depend on how high in the air the opponent is?  Thanks!

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It depends mainly on how close the opponent is, in order to get the clean hit of the 623S. In the second instance, Zadi anti-aired with a 6P before the 5S>5H>6H increasing the pushback, whereas in the first, it was just 5S>5H>6H.

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What do you fellow Sin players do when an opponent guesses right the rising JHS in the VD set up? I'm trying to add the delayed airdash JS>J6HS to my game, from there I can either try a cross up (but I'm still working on that since I don't want to spend 50 meter after the 50 meter VD :| I find doing J214S really fast works even better than iad JHS since it's also visually misleading, the only problem is if it's done fast enough to be misleading you won't get a combo 'cause the opponent tech before you land on the ground and jump again) or do 2K>2HS and go for high/low ecc

 

The matter is, are there even better routes after blocked JHS? also, has anyone found some iad/jump crossup corner starter that lead to any kind of meterless combo>knockdown not in CH? 

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Ehe don't worry I've got that covered in the wiki as well ! I'll elaborate a bit though.

If you're talking about corner VD setups, you have a lot of options

Best is always the low option for easy damage and knockdown (2K for speed, 2D into 623S(crit) for damage) after rising jH, just going for either a deep falling overhead or a low  is already hard to block. There is also another layer you get by replacing the low by a jD under the cover of Voltic and from there go for 214S>5H routes.you can also go for IAD routes : It's generally better to go for jK>jS>jK  and stick a low/j.D after any of the air hits. Even though VD blockstun should have ended by then you can also attempt a high/low after the last j.K. If you have meter to spare at that moment, you can blow it on rising jH for the kill : somebody who has blocked all those overheads will reasonably go back to crouching !

 

Cross-ups are generally not recommended for the corner VD setups, simply because you lose positioning, damage, meterless confirms and overall combo stability compared to non-crossup mixups that are as hard to block while being more damaging and keeping them in the corner. you do have cross-up  IAD options after j6HS  but since the opponent isn't in VD blockstun, he doesn't have to respect you anymore !

 

You should save cross-up/non cross-up for midscreen VD setups though, they really shine here !

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Ok, thanks for the detailed explanation, there is no point into exploring that if I think about pros and cons on crossups in the corner when you really have enough options to do something more useful to Sin's game already. I'll practice with Midscreen VD once more, even if I really don't use it outside of training mode yet (it's more like a habit that anything else xD). 

 

Thanks for the effort on the wiki anyway, It's really resourceful  :)

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 If you're beginning with the character, I've written a basic guide for Sin on the wiki. If you want to upgrade your combos you also  have this ( 1.0 combos but most of them are still valid) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0gsL4ynXWY

 

still hoping for a recent gameplay tutorial !

what can sin pretty much do after counter hit j.d ? (since it bounces 1.1) is there a new combo route and is it better than the old combos?

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Coming from playing Elphelt... Is there typical movies to get someone into an air combo with Sin, so far 2H or 2D/6H(with RC)? And basic air combo that I should go for when popping them into the air?

Also an air dust combo 8D? I looked through the wiki but don't think I found it

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What you mean like a launcher? Sin has 2h but it's only good in pressure so you'll only use it as a launcher if they try to jump out or something. Counter hit elk hunt or elk hunt rc launches and if you're in the corner 2d into hawk baker also launches. But most of the time ground combos stay on the ground and antiair combos are in the air.

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Ah ok, yeah like a launcher to start an air combo. So Elk hunt RC I guess is like Elphelts Bridal Express RC then pretty much c.S is always her air combo starter, or 2H into her few basic or advance combos.

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Just something I want to bring up that I want to remind those new to sin. Calorie management is real. Easy after each combo and don't do too many specials in a block string only to leave yourself hungry. 236k is +2 on block so use it for pressure. And always try to have some bar to cut the eating animation short or to score a hard knock down to eat afterwords. I played a few Sins online and its easy to see who is new and who isn't, mostly dew to calorie management.

Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk

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why would you ever do slide rc when you can get slide>rtl 3 ht>pickup anywhere on the screen

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why would you ever do slide rc when you can get slide>rtl 3 ht>pickup anywhere on the screen

 

Well, Dosu seems to be learning Sin, and using R.T.L*3  correctly according to weights and getting the link might be hard when you're not familiar with the char : Slide RC combos are a lot easier to implement in your game, because something like 236K>RC>6H>623S is easier to do. But I agree that once you're used to the char, R.T.L confirms are overall better so if you have time to spare in the lab once you've mastered the former combos, learn them !

 

Coming from playing Elphelt... Is there typical movies to get someone into an air combo with Sin, so far 2H or 2D/6H(with RC)? And basic air combo that I should go for when popping them into the air?

Also an air dust combo 8D? I looked through the wiki but don't think I found it

Sin is really different from Elphelt in the way you build your combos : so you should try to change your mindset when it comes to combos :Sin is not really into air combos and launching, because you have specials canceling into other specials : to keep things simple,   He has roughly three types of combos you need to learn  :

 

-Basic ground confirms (those you get really often) where your goal is often to score a knockdown into eat after you did a  a ground string on a grounded opponent , typically with 236K or 236K>236H.

-"Counter confirms" When you either anti-air an opponent (6P, j.P/j.S) and end with an air chain or hit them with a counter move that will juggle them for you to start a ground chain followed by an air chain (236K CH, 214S CH,6H and others)

- RC/punish confirms : It's the combos with 236S(crit) >214S, typically when you have meter to spare or when you want to punish a DP.

 

After you've learned those and understood how the characters' combos work you can  learn harder confirms to get optimized knockdown/damage and adapt your combo sections to your needs, Ultimately, learning to optimize your combos by reliably doing the 623S routes in every situation it is possible to do so is a must !

 

Also  there are dust confirms on the wiki, they are listed as 5D> Homing Jump : simple meterless variant is the midscreen one, and you have a bit harder  and costly but efficient variation in the midscreen to corner version

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Thanks for the info, I've just been going through all the wiki combos, pretty overwhelming not sure which ones are BnB's but I'll just try and keep my combos simple for now and always eat on an knock down.

But it gives me an idea what I should be doing in an actual fight, Sin is pretty fun so far.

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Thanks for the info, I've just been going through all the wiki combos, pretty overwhelming not sure which ones are BnB's but I'll just try and keep my combos simple for now and always eat on an knock down.

But it gives me an idea what I should be doing in an actual fight, Sin is pretty fun so far.

 This is some useful feedback, I also thought the combo section was somewhat jumbled , so I made a simple difficulty notation to make it cuter and hopefully easier to navigate ! : You can get by  with the Easy and Moderate combos, they cover all of the classic situations, and you can learn the Hard and Very Hard confirms later !

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Something that I didn't see in the Wiki which I actually need to practice are RTL combos. I can get the timing down maybe 1 out of 5 attempts. What I think I need to do is after the first hit, I delay as long as possible on the second hit (about when Sin puts his hand on his face), then the third hit comes out as soon as it will hit them while falling, the sooner the better. It seems that third hit, if it hits early, pops them up high enough that when you recover you have enough time to fit in a 2p>5k>5H>6H>236H. I did notice some variations on it though in recent videos online, I saw one after the RTL 2p>623s>214k>j.k>5h>6h>236h. 

Is anyone really using these combos? if so any tips on the timing or even optimized combos? Seems like a great way to get some extra damage when they are almost dead and you have more meter than calories to burn. 

 

Also Thanks to Zeph for the crazy detailed Wiki, I just went through all of the other character Wiki's and no one has as much information as Sin. 

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 This is some useful feedback, I also thought the combo section was somewhat jumbled , so I made a simple difficulty notation to make it cuter and hopefully easier to navigate ! : You can get by  with the Easy and Moderate combos, they cover all of the classic situations, and you can learn the Hard and Very Hard confirms later !

 

Thanks, that makes it a lot easier to find the beginner combos.

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I used to be able to hit the link for RTL pretty easily in patch 1.0 but can't anymore, and I'm not sure why. Either it doesn't pop the opponent up as high or the hitstun is prorated more heavily. In any case, if you add RTL in a combo, you can link 2p 5s 5h eat. I wouldn't go much past that because the hitstun proration would be too unpredictable past that. The last thing you want is a whiffed 6h as they tech into a punish. A raw RTL you might be able to do more but it's a really risky move to just throw out. I see Japanese sins combo off of RTL it sometimes on the floatier characters but I haven't explored the limitations.

Edited for clarity

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I used to be able to hit the link for RTL pretty easily in patch 1.0 but can't anymore, and I'm not sure why. Either it doesn't pop the opponent up as high or the hitstun is prorated more heavily. In any case, if you add RTL in a combo, you can link 2p 5s 5h eat. I wouldn't go much past that because the hitstun proration would be too unpredictable past that. The last thing you want is a whiffed 6h as they tech into a punish. A raw RTL you might be able to do more but it's a really risky move to just throw out. I see Japanese sins combo off of RTL it sometimes on the floatier characters but I haven't explored the limitations.

Edited for clarity

 

This is simply due to the proration nerf Sin received on most of his starters : as a consequence, combos scale faster, and the gravity comes into play sooner : fast confirms like f.S>236K>R.T.L are still the same but putting any move before or after the 236K will often make it tighter.

As for combos, on lighter chars Dogura did 623S>214S>236(H), but settles for 6P>623S> 214S  on mid weight chars (which is extremely tight)  so I guess that's mostly what we can do for new combos, I'll wait to see more Sin incorporate this into their gameplan and see if they optimize this further before updating anything ! they deal a lot more damage but Ww need to check whether they are consistent or not first !

 

Also saw this nice mixup from Sasashima Freeplay's mysterious and cool Sin :

 

blockstring into jump cancellable move> IAD>j.H cross-up/non cross-up>j.D> RC during the first frames of J.D startup to get the fastfall>(j.S)>j.6H>2H> usual critical combo routes

This can deal over  200 damage on perfect confirms (this is a lot harder to do than it looks) and seems to be a really good mixup when unexpected. It's one of his few mixups which is legit hard to block, which is a blessing for Sin, even if this is somewhat expensive to do !

 

EDIT : after testing, you need to delay your airdash and get j.S>j.6H on Chipp and Millia . You can't confirm this mixup properly on May and Faust so don't use it against them. works fine on the rest of the cast

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I accidentally found out an interesting throw setup, it requires voltic dein. Basically, you throw it out and run behind it as they block it, preferably before they have started blocking it you will already be running, then, you keep running to push them out of it after they have blocked one or two hits. You run faster than it moves so it's possible to push them out of its range and grab them as the blockstun runs out but it still will be there so if they try to do anything other than backdash or dp it will hit them out of it (and it should trade with most DPs).

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Then what if they throw you back. That kind of setup is really risky, i'd rather do a jump-in mixup, easier to hit, safer, more damage if successful

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Then what if they throw you back. That kind of setup is really risky, i'd rather do a jump-in mixup, easier to hit, safer, more damage if successful

The issue is they won't know the timing to this setup and it looks like they're actually in the fireball so nobody's first go to thing would be to press buttons while in the process of blocking voltic dein. You would have to show someone that setup a bunch of times for them to start adapting to it and even if they do you get to then do other stuff off of it such as push them out of the dein but then do rising jD to counter their grab attempt (which you can do while they still are in blockstun so there's no risk of being grabbed) etc.

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