[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[xlolxlolx]

real question is why bother giving them an option to do anything if you've got them blocking for a guaranteed mixup that actually nets damage 

[edollarports]

Anything that connects is A-ok

[Dreiko]

You do that when a grab is enough to kill. It's a really good mixup with less reward. Even if they're blocking it it's not like Sin's mixup is all that strong. It's for those cases when you prefer a guarantee hit to a highly damaging confirm that's harder to connect with. Also you can throw them INTO the moving dein if spaced right which actually does decent damage.

[NagorbMan]

So... has anyone tried to do rising j.H rc confirms into combos like that mystery sin did in that last batch of videos? I sometimes can combo in the j.S but thats about it.

[Flick]

The issue is they won't know the timing to this setup and it looks like they're actually in the fireball so nobody's first go to thing would be to press buttons while in the process of blocking voltic dein. You would have to show someone that setup a bunch of times for them to start adapting to it and even if they do you get to then do other stuff off of it such as push them out of the dein but then do rising jD to counter their grab attempt (which you can do while they still are in blockstun so there's no risk of being grabbed) etc.

they can just mash throw when blocking voltic dein, and don't forget about 6P which can CH your jD attempt. Setups like this have always been a thing since XX, but it's kinda gimmicky and maybe just can catch someone too sleepy

[Dreiko]

Even if they 6P me they'll get hit by the voltic dein which will be a net gain. Also I really don't know anyone who would mash 4H during the time where they're blocking voltic dein, at most they'd be trying to IB it and gain meter or they'd be worried more about the incoming mixup and thus try to see how to block rather than mash.

 

 

Look, I'm not saying it's the best thing ever or anything of the sort, it's just a nice little tidbit I accidentally did and was surprised by how effective it was lol.

 

 

 

 

So... has anyone tried to do rising j.H rc confirms into combos like that mystery sin did in that last batch of videos? I sometimes can combo in the j.S but thats about it.

jS into j214S into stuff works from that.

[Zephyrion22]

So... has anyone tried to do rising j.H rc confirms into combos like that mystery sin did in that last batch of videos? I sometimes can combo in the j.S but thats about it.

 

if you mean rising j.H into j.S, as Dreiko said, it's just j.S into j.214S, you just need to be very quick on the RC and mind the character you're facing ; characters like May are harder/impossible to hit with the j.S

 

more importantly, yeah the Voltic Dein throw setup Dreiko mentionned is kinda gimmicky, but then what ? people shouldn't underestimate gimmicks : having a few tricks up your sleeves can win you some matches, and even if they only work once or twice they're there and they work ! and honestly when you do your VD setups right, nobody expect the throw at first, being focused at blocking the stuff that is coming at them, so securing a match with it every once in a while isn't  bad idea. Nice finding Dreiko !

[NagorbMan]

Well considering I only tryed to combo in j6h, that makes a lot of sense.

[KentoHardRok]

more importantly, yeah the Voltic Dein throw setup Dreiko mentionned is kinda gimmicky, but then what ? people shouldn't underestimate gimmicks : having a few tricks up your sleeves can win you some matches, and even if they only work once or twice they're there and they work !

 

Couldn't agree more! not everything needs to be extremely practical and throwing in something unexpected in an otherwise well paced fight can break the tempo up. Personally after a block chain I do the same thing I do in SF and after 236k I'll run up and go for a throw. Sounds crazy but it works a lot, people freeze after a block chain and are sometimes slow to react, I know I am. same can be said if a big red electric bird is slowly flying across the screen. 

[edollarports]

Rising j.H midscreen is kind of finicky.

In the corner, the overhead itself works on everyone except Faust. You may not combo off of j.H RC on: May, Faust, Leo, and maybe some others, but I haven't tested and they seemed to be the main culprits.
For everyone else, falling j.S 214S or j.S j.K is stable. On certain characters, depending on whether or not the j.H or j.S counterhit (??? hitstop being wonky), you can j.S j.6H for a really good confirm. 

That being said, the sasashima sin could be doing something else entirely because I haven't taken the time to watch the vids yet.

[NagorbMan]

That sasashima sin was basically how to go ham 101.

https://youtu.be/iDRmErq87qg?t=14m5s

Here is where he does the mixup into a conversion if you're curious. I was surprised to find out in training mode last night that faust does get hit by a rising j.h from a low blocked 2H (I set up faust to low block, and then did 2h jump cancel j.h. I was awfully close though) If the j.h was a counter hit the rc j.s would hit consistently, but without the counter hit the timing is at the very least tighter if not straight up impossible. Which means its just another combo/setup that is completely unreliable against faust because he's a balanced character.

[edollarports]

It's ok, faust gets hit by corner crossup j.214S kappa

[KentoHardRok]

This was news to me, but incase you didn't catch it 

 

http://shoryuken.com/2015/06/24/proximity-guard-option-selects-appear-in-guilty-gear-xrd-sign/

 

Its talking about an option select that gives you either a special move or block depending on how the opponent reacts. I don't know if i'll be able to use it but if you could, it could save a lot of calories. Think about the effect of only throwing out specials that were going to hit for sure, but if they blocked, you just went into FD and could switch to a different attack almost immediately.  

[NagorbMan]

I thought it was only if the special ended in 4 or 1. In Sins case, he can use the os to 214k I guess. Not like you'd want to bull bash if the opponent pressed a button.

[RentalBlackout]

There is a video showing that it works with Potemkin's forward megafist though (236P, inputted as 2361P+K)
I suppose it could be done with anything, as long as you can input it fast enough. Nothing as ridiculous as doing it with Elphelt's shotgun roll however.

I could see it being useful for Beak Driver and Elk Hunt somewhat. If it's practical doing it with RTL, that does sound strong.

I wonder if specials that only move a character(no hitboxes) trigger the proximity block or not. In that case you could OS Beak Driver and if a Slayer dandy steps or not, you'd barrier instead, and punish it.

EDIT: Oddly enough, according to the main thread about this OS in the general discussion section, Dandy Step does trigger the proximity block, even though it has no hitbox. In this particular situation, if you do Beak Driver OS when Slayer does Dandy Step, you get a counter hit. Fastest P Dandy>Pilebunker also loses to this, but if you do it slightly late you'd trade/lose to it.

[Giggles454]

Don't forget OSing DP with 6231KS or 6234KS. Since it's sin's DP though, it's pretty tricky to confirm that you've hit the DP and input the follow ups after (as you don't want the specials to come out if they don't trigger the OS).

 

Ironically, this means that the OS that reduces the need for hit confirming now requires a hit confirm if the DP hits.

[Zephyrion22]

From what I've seen and tested, proximity OS  doesn't bring as much to the table for Sin as it does for other characters, but still allows for pretty neat stuff . It's too early to tell how it'll impact Sin's game but here are some early impressions.

 

-OSed Beak Driver (2361H+P/KS) on neutral is the first only real nice use I found for it : you get the FD if they try to preemptively IAD punish and can 6P them for free. otherwise, if they hit a button, it's BD CH in most cases. (if you spaced it correctly) Don't forget to mind all the low profile moves, so use it more sparingly in some MUs. Only issue with this is what actually makes this OS flawed if used incorrectly : Nothing comes out if they don't hit buttons, meaning that you won't get your anti-jump out/backdash, so you can't use it to impair their mobility and start your offense : OSed Beak is strictly only used to fish for counter hits safely !

 

-Osed Hawk Baker(6231S+P/K/H) is hilariously bad for neutral and defense (range is so poor that attacks will trigger it but it won't hit in many cases). Not nearly as reliable as the other DPs, on top of being hard to do consistently. Only use I found or it is for people who like to hit buttons after 6H or Elk Hunt, and even then, it's not great.

 

-OSed Elk Hunt (2361K+P/S/H) is situationally good, Thing is Elk Hunt is already a relatively safe move, OSing it just adds a layer of safety for the times you think they could call it out. You'll mainly use it against monster pokers like Faust.

 

-OSed R.T.L(63214641H+P/K/S) is the biggest disappointment for me : Aside from being  invul from frame 4 only, making it a no-go as a defensive option, its uses as a beefy whiff punisher are limited. It could have been more useful but OSed Beak Driver exists and does almost everything better than R.T.L. That being said, OSing R.T.L is still vastly useful as it makes R.T.L a much smaller commitment than it normally is

 

-Leap ( 214P+K/S/H or 214K+P/S/H): is one of the better Osed moves as it is incredibly easy to execute and to incorporate in your game. It basically allows you to whiff punish a crazy amount of stuff at the right distances, without taking the risk of being blown out if they did something else. Unfortunately it doesn't solve the other weaknesses of the move : if they don't commit to something with lenghty recovery, they can still airthrow, or at least block in time. On top of that, BECAUSE you OSed it, if they chose to preemptively backdash or jump, you can't use it to chase them or airthrow them since you will get your FD to come out. Also you'll have to be quick on your punish since you can't buffer anything until Leap actually comes out

 

 

Even if I don't like this OS, It still vastly improves Sin's passive neutral even if it doesn't bring anything for him in terms of actual defensive options and rushing capabilities (remember you can't do this OS if you're not in a neutral state, so running forward will negate the OS). We'll just wait and see how this will be fleshed out, but this should give you some food for thought if this OS makes its way to change Xrd's metagame !

[Chewie891]

Anybody understand how to do ths Sin Safe jump setups. Also I have a another burst grab off 6H https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5bS3M0to10

[Chewie891]

sorry wrong video here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIYzuS6XGY

[Zephyrion22]

Anybody understand how to do ths Sin Safe jump setups. Also I have a another burst grab off 6H https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5bS3M0to10

 

This is not called a safe jump setup but a burst bait. You just need to jump cancel your move and grab them : Bursts are invincible to anything but throws, so you can airthrow all the bursts : you have to input the jump and throw very fast and be sure you're close enough !

 

I wouldn't recommend airthrowing bursts though, especially when you're Sin : just jumping forward and blocking will beat their burst, and you get a free c.S  while they are still in the air, so you can do beefy stuff on them !

[Giggles454]

Let's discuss options after Leap (214P/K) in blockstrings and what they beat:

 

If they block:

- You can just run your general jumping mixup. (High / Empty Jump Low / Late Airdash)

- Be mindful that they might try and throw after you land, in which case you can chuck in some late j.Ds just before you land and get that tasty counter hit.

 

If they use a ground anti-air normal:

- You can FD, just be careful to actually have enough meter to block their anti-air strings.

- You can use j.214S to attempt to beat the anti-air. Sometimes the two moves will just clash so investigate your clash options after that. This option is quite risky if they just block, however, as they can sometimes punish your landing recovery.

- You can use 214P[4] instead to make the anti-air whiff and then whiff punish with j.6H.

- You can Blitz Shield.

 

If they DP:

- Yeah, you know this one, just FD and kill them after.

- You could Blitz Shield it, if you're feeling good and are unsure if they will DP or use a ground anti-air normal.

 

If they jump up with an air-to-air normal:

- An early j.P from you can work well to beat out their move. I sometimes do a rising couple of j.Ps when I leap just to prevent this and if they don't come up to meet me, I haven't really lost anything and can then choose one of the aforementioned options to beat out whatever I think they will do.

 

If they try to low profile your jump in: (Looking at you, Sol 2D!)

- j.214S reaches low enough that it will catch them, but carries its risks if blocked as previously stated (which can happen when trying to catch low-recovery moves like Axl or Millia 2K).

- If you delay your j.S or j.H, you should hit low enough. This is obviously only when following your normal Leap arc; if you airdash, you won't be able to reach low enough with j.S.

 

If they try to Blitz Shield:

- Bait it like you would a DP.

- Even if they successfully BS you, don't lose hope yet! If you have 25 meter, and have the read on when they'll punish you, go for your own counter BS. I know it's saved me in a ton of matches.

 

If they jump up and Air Throw you: (This is the option I have the most difficulty consistently beating)

- Early j.Ps may work

- 214P[4] to make them whiff their j.H *might* work but they can often just react to which leap you use and choose to air throw or not.

- Deviating a bit, but you could try and cancel a special into 214S instead of Leap in the first place to catch them jumping up. Although, this has the same faults as the previous option; they just won't jump up and air throw you unless they see you get close enough with a Leap.

- You could try and do an early j.D when you think they'll jump up to delay your momentum a bit and nab a counter hit if you're lucky. I'm not sure how well this works and it's not great if they just end up blocking your j.D that high up.

 

Those are all the situations I can think of that I've faced when Leaping in. If anyone, has better ideas on beating the Air Throw option, tell me!

[shadow_nobody]

One situation I've been thinking about which can beat air throws and aa's is Leap into j.214S YRC. 

-They try to AA you as you go in the air and J.214S whiffs. YRC punish the AA. 

-They go for the air throw and get CH from the early J.214S into big combos

-They backdash and either reset the neutral or you can continue pressure. 

 

Still just ideas and it doesn't really work on everyone or its hard to time due to height differences. However ignoring that Leap YRC is still good to mess up their timings. 

[KentoHardRok]

I have been trying to tone done my leaps to be honest. It was a bad habit of following up combos with it but once you play someone good they can punish the hell out of it if its done out of a block string. One thing that shadow nobody mentioned is backdashing. I use this to bait anti-airs and it does work against anti-air happy characters like leo and sol. 

 

If you can get a leap in after a hard knockdown and feel brace a low airdash followed by a string with strange timing like jS>jK>jD works sometimes too, landing a counter hit with the jD. 

[Eshi]

This isn't really a gameplay question but I figure it's more or less appropriate here. In the same spirit of the general site-wide feedback that staff has been collecting to help improve Dustloop: Are there any changes that y'all want to see in the Sin board that I can work on? I'm keeping the video thread OP decently updated but some people have noted that it's not super useful for new players and other things, as an example, but I also haven't made many changes to other threads. Any feedback would be appreciated as this seems like one of the more active boards here and I want it to be as useful of a resource as possible!

[edollarports]

I don't think you can cure dustlupus, but besides that, I think the board is just dandy. It's nice as is.