[P4AU] Ken Amada vs Shadow Labrys

[VR-Raiden]

• Use this thread to discuss the Shadow Labrys matchup.
• Please focus more heavily on discussing how to play the matchup properly as Ken rather than who is at advantage/disadvantage.
• This post will be updated as info arises.

Round Start:

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Neutral:

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Offense:

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Defense:

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Punishes:

On Block:

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On Reaction:

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Character Specific Notes:

Combos:

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Mixups:

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[mixedmethods]

This one is going to be tricky. I played against Ken as Shabrys, and after doing some testing in the lab, here's the good news/bad news, with the bad news first:

* Her sandwich oki beats your sandwich oki, her meterless damage beats your damage, your j.Bs and j.2Bs have the same startup, her 2B Fatal Counters, she can destroy Koromaru faster than you can break her persona, and there's still more -- her airdash beats your airdash and her DP will go straight through your AoA due to the fact that it has guardpoint for the full duration, and if she's in Awakening and has the meter, she can end the match by super-canceling her DP into Brutal Impact.

* For reference, all of the following will damage Koromaru: Flame of Hades (lasers!); 5C/Knuckle Train; 2A, 5A(AA); Guillotine Axe and Guillotine Aerial; sweep; 2C (Hammer Uppercut, formerly 8C); 8C (Terra's Eruption, formerly 2C); Buffalo Hammer; Challenge Authority super; Titanomachia (inputs and finisher). If Koromaru is idle at your feet, her ground command grab will only catch Ken (cold comfort); her new anti-air grab will whiff if only Koromaru is airborne and inside its hitbox. (It will catch Ken, of course.)

* As Ken, you need to manage both puppets -- Asterius and Koromaru -- if you want to survive. That statement probably deserves a sub-list of its own...

* You need to know the bull's animations to win this one. (Ground grab: bull is almost completely underground, save its horns; 2C: bull is completely underground, etc.) 2C is not something you want to get hit with, but it's also how Shabrys will force you to make a play and begin her offence. Be very aware of what the Shabrys herself likes doing after 2C -- and remember to move, but not into the corner. Because of Ken's reach on normals, you may be able to successfully hit her after the 2C command, lulling you into a false sense of security as the bull reappears from underground and punches you for not walking forward or jumping. Make sure that Koromaru is put into motion as well; 2C will catch Koromaru in his idle state.

* At close to mid-range, you can often snipe Shabrys out of Asterius startup with 5C and 2C, particularly if you've sent Koromaru out ahead of you with repeated 5C/2Cs to keep him from returning to you. At match start, you may want to risk Koromaru's health by sending him out right away: your puppet normals are faster than hers, particularly once Koromaru is point-blank, so abuse this to keep her from starting her game. If she takes to the air, 214CD (i.e., the SB version) will hit her during jump startup or force her to block -- this is going to be one of your best ways of disabling her abuse of certain persona moves as well as trying to keep her grounded. (Once Shabrys blocks, Asterius stops performing commands unless already underground or if Titanomachia is active. If Shabrys is hit while the bull has been given a command, you take a card.)

* Returning to 214C/D: 214 (particularly the SB version) is good for discouraging jumping and for covering your approach but it can be punished if you become predictable and/or don't space it properly. You can catch Shabrys jumping (and take away a card if she went for 8C) with Ken's [dash] 5B, Charge Thrust, or j.B, depending on your position, which gives you more options on hit because Koromaru isn't committed. Koromaru's 2C, 5C, and 236C/D are also options but require Koromaru to be close enough to land the attack before Shabrys is off the ground and out of range. Long story short, 214C/D is a vital tool that allows you to stop some of her more obnoxious tricks and to force her to play the ground game, as well as compensate for your lack of a reliable anti-air, but remember that it isn't your only one or you'll eat 8C into a combo for your mistake.

* Titanomachia: first, don't burst. Secondly, watch the input counter above her meter. The minimum is one, the max is four, as the counter includes the full-screen finisher in its count. If you can't hit Shabrys (or force her to tech a throw) to end Titano, you must get Koromaru out of there before the counter drops to one. The flames will take out his health bar even if you block the entire Titano sequence, leaving you with weaker options after Titano ends. Titanomachia is much faster now, allowing the bull to hit you into the finish without a Fatal.

* Watch her meter during Titano: if she spent 50 on Titano and another 50 disappears, it means Brutal Impact is coming. If you burst Titano, you will most likely land right into Brutal Impact. 5D/2D to keep Koromaru safe, block the axe. Brutal Impact is incredibly punishable on block or, if you feel brave/Shabrys times it poorly, whiff, so hit her with your best Fatal combo to end the round.

* If Shabrys activates Titano in the air, she has landing recovery and cannot block during her descent. You can punish her any way you like for bad activations -- if you're close, use your best starter into damage or oki; at further ranges, 236AB into whatever your meter and position allows is your best bet. If you see an Awakened Shabrys trying to create space in order to start Titano, harass her -- Ken can make two-thirds of the screen uninhabitable, and pressing that advantage is crucial. If you can't convert into a combo, hitting her with 2C and 5C (even while Ken is across screen) may be silly but it's valid. She cannot activate Titano (or burst) if the bull is committed, so keep pestering her whenever you see she has her burst or if the bull is idle. Ken and Koromaru are capable of taking away one of her strongest tools -- always press that advantage.

* For Ken, midscreen is the most favourable position, in my opinion. Your goal is to close in on Shabrys and quickly put her into your own left-right game, leaving her unable to block (removing the threat of the bull), DP, or mash out. Safe-jump and bait her DP, particularly by crossing it up, then put her right back in your left-right game. If you do put her in the corner, watch what she's doing as best you can while Koromaru is between you. If she attempts to jump out of corner pressure or switches to standing block, make sure you can see the bull; it's possible for her to activate her [2]8C/D anti-air grab, so don't jump. (It whiffs if you remain grounded and does not hit Koromaru, either airborne or grounded.) If she reads your jump, she may be able to land the grab -- I'm testing this further -- so be aware of her options when pressuring her in the corner, as all it takes is one hit from Asterius to reverse the situation.

* If she's the one pressuring you: once her pressure game begins, you have poor escape options. 5D/2D Koromaru to keep him safe, as she and Asterius can pummel him while you block. Her pressure is as relentless as yours -- she may have slower start-up on bull commands, but she can cancel bull specials into bull specials on whiff or block for as long as she pleases. Be very careful about when to burst; if you try for a defensive burst, she can step back or block to force a whiffed burst, then punish. Don't burst if the bull is blocking, as it's likely she's baiting in those cases. You can take a card if you burst the bull while its active, however. If you whiff a gold burst, her DP will armor through your invuln to catch you as you recover.

* You can DP her DP if she's throwing it out recklessly, as you'll get an easy cross-up, but you need the correct read and a burst in case of failure, but that's needlessly risky; block it or roll it for an easy, damaging punish.

* Your j.A is two frames faster than her j.A, and your hitbox is much bigger. She can use j.A to cross up or confirm into big damage, so don't be afraid to poke her air-to-air or meet her jump with one of your own. As with Labrys, be wary of her j.B and j.BB/j.2B -- hers are faster than Labrys's; in fact, you have the same start up. j.A is good for keeping distance while also meeting her jump, allowing you to poke her and force her back down to the ground.

* Do not attempt Mediarama unless Shabrys is knocked down. Her new Chain Knuckle will either hit you out of the move or get her a counter starter, and she can do even more damage via Asterius, so stay calm and don't risk anything.

* She can use her non-Awakening super Challenge Authority (the TV punch) in the air at the risk of landing recovery. It has an enormous hitbox, so when in doubt, assume you're not in the clear. It starts from the bull's position, not hers, so you can force it to whiff if the Shabrys isn't paying attention to Asterius's position... or she can use that fact to punish you if you're the one not paying attention and she has the meter. The C version is punishable if you block it or she uses it point blank; the D and SB versions are not. You can hit the bull with a super, but Shabrys herself is invuln through the start-up and active frames.

* Like Ken, she doesn't have many ways to keep you blocking low. However, you won't be able to punish her B and SB Guillotines unless you IB the hit and she isn't being covered by the bull. Her fastest normals are 7f (5A and 2A), so with IB, Ken's 8f 5A becomes 5f, but you expose yourself to a huge amount of risk if you hit a button and whiff.

* Her 5A is punishable if she doesn't jump-cancel it and her 5AAA is suicide if you block it and she doesn't special cancel. It's unlikely to happen, but it's worth knowing.

* Any time you hit the bull while it's blocking, it counts as a blocked hit, meaning your cancel options are the same as if you hit a blocking opponent. Since Ken can't cancel 2A into itself or into 5A, don't be reckless with your button presses.

* If Shabrys knocks you down, expect to be placed in the Shabrys Guessing Game: if she sets up Flame of Hades/lasers, it will be difficult to tell if she's going to go for a cross-up or opt to fake the cross-up, leading straight into high-low in any number of ways (airdash, roll, dash, all of which can lead into an empty low, Guillotine, etc.). Flame of Hades will also deny you the ability to close in on her if you're at distance and fail to react quickly; either move forward (away from the pillar at the end of lasers) ASAP or walk back to avoid the pillar entirely -- the pillar does the most hitstun/blockstun. (You can roll the lasers at some spacings, but Koromaru will be hit by them if he's on the field, and you'll probably roll into Shab's axe.)

* If Shabrys is near or at Awakening, kill her as fast as you can. (And if she has a burst, expect to see her use it to enter Awakening with as much health as possible.) At this point, it's crucial you avoid being hit by her DP, as if she cancels it into Brutal Impact, you'll either die or be at magic pixel status, GG, etc. If you're also in Awakening, Ultimate Cross is your best friend, particularly the SB version, as Asterius is vulnerable to supers while in Titano and Ultimate Cross is incredibly fast, allowing you to hit Shabrys out of an attempted jump-in or mix-up, in or out of Titano.

* Her ground command grab is capable of adding status effects. You can use Koromaru to try to get them off, but poison is the biggest threat as it adds another 1k to her damage and she can combo off the grab into oki. (Thanks, bananaken.)

* Fire Breath and Thunder Reign are both projectiles and, except for the C version of Fire Breath, multi-hit moves, so be wary of using supers against the bull. If Asterius blocks, projectiles are free meter for Shabrys, and you do not want to give that to her. Air Fire Breath is potentially useful for halting her approach or punishing, but because C is a single hit, Shabrys herself can roll the projectile and punish if you don't have the extra meter to OMC. Fire Breath is essentially your answer to Flame of Hades, but it costs 50 meter while hers is free (or she can use the SB version for 25). However, it's an option if there's space between you and you need to deny that part of the stage to her. You may be able to halt her momentum with the D or SB versions, since they're multi-hit, but that requires more testing.

* While she can't burst while persona broken, she can still hit hard, and a good Shabrys player will know persona-break combos, both in and out of Awakening. If she has meter and is in Awakening, she can still use Brutal Impact, so don't get impatient (and slaughtered) just because Asterius is gone.

Because many people are unfamiliar with Shabrys, you will be at a heavy disadvantage if you don't know the MU, hence the notes. (Of course, Ken is new as well, so exploit that fact if the player doesn't know how to fight you.) It can feel like a boss-mode mirror match at times, as Shabrys has the ability to have her puppet block without losing momentum, nevermind her ridiculous damage and corner pressure. Just like Ken, she's a bully, so your goal is to win the playground war, take her lunch money, and send her home crying. Until she hits Awakening, it's a relatively straightforward fight if you're able to lock her out of her game and keep her trapped midscreen. Be more cautious if you put her in the corner, as she can use multiple persona moves to blow up your pressure, and you really don't want to be hit by that anti-air grab. Once she's in Awakening, you'll need to adjust as the situation demands: if she has full meter and you feel lucky, let her burn some of it on Titano, then interrupt it. If you have her pinned and she's without burst when she enters Awakening, then the MU is much easier, as you can focus on killing her off ASAP, preferably before she returns to neutral and enters Awakening. Both of you have relatively low health, so one Titano or a single Brutal Impact can erase all your hard work -- be very mindful of her meter. Don't be wary of spending yours, either: EX moves are a godsend in this MU, particularly if you can Shock her with Gigantic Impact SB or Thunder Reign SB, and EX Koromaru specials allow you to keep your pressure safer and faster.

I feel like the MU is slightly in Shabrys's favour, as she has more options while being pressured in the corner and Titano, while less "scammy," is still able to turn a round around suddenly. However, your pressure game is more flexible than hers in some respects, and Ken is more than capable of stopping her from dominating by harassing her at range or up-close (or doing both simultaneously). It's a fight that can go to either side very quickly, then just as easily flip once she enters Awakening.

[mixedmethods]

• When pressuring Shabrys while the bull is blocking, you are unsafe after Asterius guards 5C.
• Her DP has 15f start-up, autoguard for the duration -- but the more problematic issue is that the hitbox is large enough to easily tag you out of pressure.