Blade Report post Posted July 14, 2009 Regarding matchups, though it's said Haku's low tier, it seems like he's given advantages the others don't have, so some matchups seem easy comparatively. I've had moments I thought I was going to lose, but one good hit netted me a win, which surprised me. I played Nu once against a really good Haku player and it was like he dictated the pace of the whole match even though it's 7-3 in Nu's favor...I'm not sure how to understand that aspect of him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4r5 Report post Posted July 14, 2009 I guess you don't play a very good Nu... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 14, 2009 I guess you don't play a very good Nu... cosigned lol. Zone with swords, anti air Hakumen's response... rinse... repeat. Most my wins vs Nu are because I caught her making a mistake twice, and almost always this comes after she was dominating the whole first half of the match. One thing that's nice though is that her standard drive crap is easy to block. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetvids Report post Posted July 14, 2009 I guess you don't play a very good Nu... QFT. :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reaVer Report post Posted July 14, 2009 cosigned lol. Zone with swords, anti air Hakumen's response... rinse... repeat. Most my wins vs Nu are because I caught her making a mistake twice, and almost always this comes after she was dominating the whole first half of the match. One thing that's nice though is that her standard drive crap is easy to block. Actually, Hakumen doesn't really have a whole lot of problems circumventing V-13's play. It's a lot easier than it's made out to be really. Apart from that the fact that Hakumen can come back from anything makes any mistakes on Hakumen side a lot more bareable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qwerty Report post Posted July 14, 2009 Actually, Hakumen doesn't really have a whole lot of problems circumventing V-13's play. It's a lot easier than it's made out to be really. Apart from that the fact that Hakumen can come back from anything makes any mistakes on Hakumen side a lot more bareable. play a good nu. no, really, i mean someone really fucking good with nu, then come back and try to read what you said with a straight face. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faultydefense Report post Posted July 14, 2009 ANY character can come back from anything, the ones with high damaging combos just do it easier...but who has damage that can compete with hakumen? rachel anything into frog/super, ragna anything into 5D is gonna hurt if they can hit links, tager being tager, noel C loops...like...everyone cept bang cuz he only gets to hurt in special circumstances just because hakumen can do 214B (1) to 41236 C for like 30% life on ragna people think his damage output is insane when in reality he just gets big damage when the other player isn't patience and his big combos only do about as much as his little special chain, they're just more worthwhile as they build more/use less bar. That's all it boils down to, hakumen is like the crane in a crane game, except all the toys are shooting shit at him in this match up. If you finally get on v-13 its a lot easier for her to wait out hakumen's less than stellar mix-up for her own chance to escape. Now who's better at running away v-13 or hakumen? and who's better at making someone eat pressure, v-13 or hakumen? The comebacks are nothing more than momentum, happens to everybody in every game, scrubs just get a hakumen on them after zoning for half a match and freak out that its the end of the world...and if they do then they're right. /frametraps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reaVer Report post Posted July 14, 2009 play a good nu. no, really, i mean someone really fucking good with nu, then come back and try to read what you said with a straight face. If the Nu would beat me he/she would simply be a better player than me. It has nothing to do with what I just said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 14, 2009 I'm not drinking the "Nu's not that bad" kool aid. I think she's a terrible match up for Haku-men and I agree with faultydefense that Haku's mixup game isn't really that great. It's either 2a, 214b, or 663214c. 41236c is really slow and easy to block on reaction, plus it can be jabbed out of if you're close enough. And 623a, throw isn't really good mixup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reaVer Report post Posted July 14, 2009 It's really not that bad compared to what I had to deal with when playing OS back in /. You just need to be patient enough to look for openings, use your invincibility, use your jumps. If she's using D she'll be in recovery for some time which you can capitalize on if you evaded the swords. If you didn't, you're stuck in waiting game. This is the same against Arakune and Rachel. Though once you see a pattern on whether they go high or low you can figure out a gap and get close. From 623A you got plenty of other options to keep your opponent guessing. If he's option selecting your throw you can get a high low mixup if you're luck. Or you can give him jabs and then grab his ass. There's also some holes to play with, 2A-A sets up a CH 5C for example. Some other less important stuff, 5B can work as a great AA! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 14, 2009 But why use it instead of 6a, 5c, or 2c? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kumlekar Report post Posted July 15, 2009 Because 5B is 10 frame startup, 6A is 11 frames, 2C is 13 frames, and 5C is 14 frames. not entirely sure, but it might also have a slight range advantage over 6A. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faultydefense Report post Posted July 15, 2009 6A gets invuln starting at frame 3 though, counts for a lot more Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reaVer Report post Posted July 15, 2009 5B has range advantage, prorates less and on counter it can get about the same followups that 6A can get. 5B is also a tad harder to hit for the opponent because it stops them so early. And I also think Hakumen moving back a bit helps with the defensive part of that move. You'd use 6A when your opponent is already on top of you, but before that 5B has its uses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kumlekar Report post Posted July 15, 2009 Faulty, it doesn't "count for alot more" it just means that both moves excel in different situations. Where does it list proration on the move data? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reaVer Report post Posted July 15, 2009 P1 for the first hit and P2 for mid combo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faultydefense Report post Posted July 15, 2009 Faulty, it doesn't "count for alot more" it just means that both moves excel in different situations. Where does it list proration on the move data? it counts for a lot more Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Question: Because hakumen's jab is +3 frames on block, is it good to tick throw with? Is tick throwing as effect in this game as it is in other games? I ask because obviously you can't throw until they are out of block stun, so where as most chars with even frames or negative frames can throw as soon as they finish their jab, Hakumen has to wait longer. Or do those positive frames give them even less time to react to the throw? What characters can and can not duck Hakumen's standing A? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackG Report post Posted July 17, 2009 The thing about throwing in GG and BB (maybe other fighters too) is that your opponent has some amount of time (not entire sure, I think maybe around 7 frames) after they leave blockstun that they are throw immune. Or in the case of BB, if you throw within 7 frames of them leaving blockstun, it's considered a purple throw. So +frame moves are good for tick throwing sure, but not as good as you'd think. Also tick throws are great (especially since Hakumen gets big damage off of forward throw) but his is slightly telegraphed due to his dash being a hop. Also, pretty much everyone ducks his standing A except tager. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4r5 Report post Posted July 17, 2009 More like +frame moves are about the only way to land a throw. There are attacks that come out faster then throws, so you need the +frames to even get your throw out there. GG's 0f throws meant that you only had to weasel your way in to your character's throw range, and you force a throw situation on your opponent. But BB's throws are 7f's. (6f if your tager) Alot of character's jabs are faster then this. Meaning it's not good enough to be in your throw range. You have to be in your throw range AND you need frame advantage. But since, in BB, you commit to throws (unlike GG's option-select bullshittery), if you feel your opponent is going to try and tech your throw, you can turn your tick-throw into a tick-tick and CH their tech (which has turned into a throw attempt), Or in Hakumen's case, instead of tick-tick, it's tick-C. edit: wait, I think BB does have some OS trickery. Damnit ArcSys! :shakesfist: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 17, 2009 More like +frame moves are about the only way to land a throw. There are attacks that come out faster then throws, so you need the +frames to even get your throw out there. GG's 0f throws meant that you only had to weasel your way in to your character's throw range, and you force a throw situation on your opponent. But BB's throws are 7f's. (6f if your tager) Alot of character's jabs are faster then this. Meaning it's not good enough to be in your throw range. You have to be in your throw range AND you need frame advantage. But since, in BB, you commit to throws (unlike GG's option-select bullshittery), if you feel your opponent is going to try and tech your throw, you can turn your tick-throw into a tick-tick and CH their tech (which has turned into a throw attempt), Or in Hakumen's case, instead of tick-tick, it's tick-C. edit: wait, I think BB does have some OS trickery. Damnit ArcSys! :shakesfist: Can you explain the option select? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4r5 Report post Posted July 17, 2009 well, with Haku-men, you can do D+B+C to 'install' a throw escape into your drive-counters I think you can do 4A+B+C add a throw escape to your barrier. And I think you just add B+C to whatever attack to do an attack with a throw escape. So like, adding a throw escape to Hakumen's 5C would be like: C~B+C. I guess I'll try these out right now. Atleast it's only OSing with a throw escape. In GG you could OS with a throw attempt, and create a situation where your opponent's only option was to 1f jump into an air FD-block. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blade Report post Posted July 17, 2009 I'm still having trouble with Counter followups, mostly because I either don't have enough stars to do what I usually do, or know of anything that works best given the situation and counter. If someone could list some counter followups and organize them by star (Magatama) count and spacing, I'd appreciate it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted July 17, 2009 you only need 1 magatama to do a counter follow up. Use more if you want but all you need is one to start out. 6d > move forward slightly then jump forward > jc > 5c > gurren > 6c 2d > move slightly forward > 5c > gurren > 6c That's the most basic ones. If you have additional magatamas, I'd suggest to just use them to push your opponent into a corner then work from there. As long you have 3 magatamas you have a pretty good chance creating an opportunity for j2c loop. Edit: by the way, if you have them in the corner already, just replace 6c with 2c and go into either j2c loop of lock them back into the corner with 1 more magatama. Simple. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whitevoid Report post Posted July 17, 2009 Question: Because hakumen's jab is +3 frames on block, is it good to tick throw with? Is tick throwing as effect in this game as it is in other games? I ask because obviously you can't throw until they are out of block stun, so where as most chars with even frames or negative frames can throw as soon as they finish their jab, Hakumen has to wait longer. Or do those positive frames give them even less time to react to the throw? What characters can and can not duck Hakumen's standing A? You can throw in block (or hit) stun. It's just a wider escape window. In any case the throw executes same speed regardless, so it's always the same reaction time to see the throw. I usually use the frames to walk forward a little bit. Unless if they are mashing on jab, you're own jab (usually use 2A) should be able to beat them out. And if they are mashing on jab you have the frames to get a CH throw which is inescapable. Wish Hakumen had a good karathrow... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites