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Ventus Tatshima

[Xrd] Elphelt Gameplay Discussion "The True Best Girl"

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Hm if blitz has no vulnerable recovery only way out is to blitz grenade and backdash the shot. All very tight and assuming they know when you shoot.

 

well, thats if they delay it. if i was doing the setup, i'd try to get it during IB blockstun, so an 18f window (hitstop + blockstun). A bit difficult to see/react to (you can look for the rejected prompt, but if they IB the "just" prompt comes up so ;_; ).

 

If they blitz, their invuln lasts from the time the grenade hits meaty to past where their blockstun would be, even if you were to meaty the blitz recovery with the last active frame of the unblockable. So, you could delay the shot, but they could just block and backdash.

 

yeah...to make it a bit easier, dabble with yrc stuff during their wakeup and use the slowdown to react to blitz shield easily (hit and blockstun both end the slowdown, but blitz shield wont). timing for blockstun UB is tight though, so when you yrc is super important, since the yrc resets the cursor position. if they blitz, they have the option of blitzing again, or backdashing the shot (ideally, the yrc is so that you don't preemptively shoot) but, you can keep them there a bit longer and at least preserve position while the grenade goes off instead of missing the shot while they peace out (if the grenade goes off too close to the initial hit, they can just double blitz while the grenade catches the tail end of the blitz parry window (12f)

 

jp says blitz shield reversal window is 2f! but either way im just splitting hairs over 1/2f frame tight escapes, lmao

Edited by not_lunaris

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After running some tests, it does seem like the easiest and safest way to deal with it universally is Blitzshield>delay blitzshield which is actually much easier to do than Blitzshield>backdash which doesn't work for everyone. It didn't for Chipp because of his backdash being one of the slowest and it resulted in him getting hit by the explosion during his recovery (invul 1-9f, 21f total duration).
Would also like to point out that Blitzshield>Blitzshield actually only costs 25 tension. If it's triggered, it gives back 12,5 tension. The minimum amount of tension you would need is technically 37,5 but because it will give half back everytime, only 25 tension is actually being spent.

I also started testing character specific options to see what they could do with it.
Tested so far with Chipp, Ky and Potemkin.

Chipp's backdash is too slow to be used with Blitz>backdash. All his supers also don't have invul starting from frame 1. However, if he uses his DP, he avoids the toss and the unblockable shot (the delay doesn't matter for the shot, he's just too far when his invul ends) and will always recover in time to block the berry explosion.
Only way I found to punish it is with a YRC.

With Ky, wake up Ride the Lightning beats you clean and hits you before you have the time to do unblockable shot YRC. Even if you YRC on his wake up, and he activates it, it doesn't seem like you have the time to leave sniper stance before getting hit by the super at all. He can't however avoid it like Chipp because his DP will make him fall almost where he was resulting in him getting hit by the unblockable shot.

With Potemkin, it's actually much easier than the two characters above.
Wake up Hammerfall result in Potemkin super armoring the toss and avoiding the unblockable shot. He will then hit you leading to a knockdown. He then gets punished by the berry explosion during his recovery which knocks him down giving you the advantage. Can't do unblockable anymore though. Gets beaten by YRC.

Wake up Hammerfall break is hard to punish even with YRC. If you were waiting to see what he would do with a YRC on his wake up instead of doing unblockable shot YRC, he will punish you with Pot Buster.

Wake up Hammerfall YRC result in you getting punished with Pot Buster instead. Doesn't seem possible to react in time, leave sniper stance and jump out while you're slowed down.

Finally, another option that will probably never be used is blue burst right after getting knocked down resulting in the toss punishing the burst. If you do that, the game consider that you're still in OTG state when you get hit allowing you to front tech right away and avoid the whole setup. If you didn't use YRC, you will get punished. If you tried to YRC during wake up, chances are that it will be a Red RC but the opponent will still air tech whatever you try to do.

Reason why I said it's probably never going to be used will be because the chances that the opponent burst when he will recognize the air combo leading to the loop are much higher.
This is by far the easiest universal option and it requires specfic timing but it costs you a burst.
Wake up Gold burst can allow to avoid the unblockable shot but you get hit by the explosion leading to much higher damage so it's a bad idea. Might be possible though that some characters can avoid both the unblockable shot and the explosion due to the different wake-up time but I doubt it.

I also heard that Slayer could do backdash cancel Dead on time but if what was said on this thread is true, it would mean you would need to do 63214469S in 2 frames which honestly doesn't seem realistic and possible to pull off on a consistent basis.

Anyway, I'm almost done with the okizeme section for the wiki that I'll update tomorrow as well as the new notes for her moves. Will also try to test every defensive options per character but this will take much more time.

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Just to be clear, most of the setups : IB into the shot = no gap 

Yes I know. I tested with 2 patterns actually. First one was during the toss' blockstun and the second had a gap between the toss and the unblockable shot. Everytime I tested with a new character, I changed the records to make sure I had the correct timing. Unless I specifically mentionned it, the counters worked with both patterns.

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I also heard that Slayer could do backdash cancel Dead on time but if what was said on this thread is true, it would mean you would need to do 63214469S in 2 frames which honestly doesn't seem realistic and possible to pull off on a consistent basis.

 

 

FWIW, BDC'ing feels even easier in Xrd than in ACR. I was never able to BDC Bite doing 6321447H with a stick in AC but can do it in Xrd with a pad lol.

 

Slayer may also be able to just BD FD jump since the jump will also inherit 6 invul frames.

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Sup guys, been out of FGs for a while, last tournament I competed in was was for GGAC+/BBCS. So now that XRD is here and none of my characters are in it, thought I would try this new character. Look forward to getting y'all help in getting me acquainted with this hilarious character.

 

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but any tips on basic setups, okis, combos I should be focusing on while on my first few days getting used to her and understanding her gameplan?

Woooahhhh youre alive

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Elphelt's neutral game feels super weird to me. Not sure why, but it does. Particularly when I can't throw a grenade, I feel like I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do. Feels like it'd be better to wait for the opponent to move rather than make a move myself.

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Woooahhhh youre alive

 

Come on, son. It's Guilty Gear! I also don't know how to play FGs anymore.

 

Soooo, my neutral also sucks with this character. I'm too used to having a projectile on the screen cause I'm always playing a zoning character. Man, I'm so terrible. My gameplay ends up being random stagger string into bridal express:

- if blocked, rinse and repeat

- if hits, RC into oki

 

Yay, easy mode flowchart gameplay.

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I said this on twitter but I hope her gameplay doesn't stagnate into 'bridal express', combo, in the corner, unblockable, repeat.  That'd be horribly boring.  

 

Thanks for the write up Mags!

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Yay, easy mode flowchart gameplay.

Here's what I wrote in my notes. Still WIP though:

-Opponent is zoning/wary of his spacing: j236P, toss (YRC if possible), 5H/2H (matchup dependent), air approach (IAD jS, high jump (airdash) j214K. j214K delay YRC jS/5K if try to AA.), shotgun neutral (Risky. matchup depedent)

-Against rushes: microdash fS (will be cS if they attempt to IAD), 2S (instead of fS against Ky, Sin and Zato), 5H, jS, 6H (risky)

-Should rush/have to take risks against: Sin, Ky, May, Chipp, I-no, Axl, Venom, Zato, Bedman.

-Should rather be patient/deal with safely: Faust, Sol, Elphelt, Potemkin, Slayer

-Not enough MU experience: Ram, Millia.

-Pressure starter: 5K, 2P, SG-S, SG-P

-Frame traps: cS/fS>2H, 2H>236H>delay SG-P, fS(max range)>214K,

-Pressure resets: fS(max range)>214K, dash 5K>cS>fS>2S>214K (+ on block and boost RISC gauge), anything jcable>hj214K, 214K against FD, fS/6H>236P>fS>2P (YRC), fS/6H>236H>SG-S,

-Mixups: hj214K delay YRC>falling jS/5K, tkj214K YRC>airdash jS>jP>jS/5K, tkj236P YRC (no timer if done well)>falling jS/5K, 2H>236H>SG-P(frametrap)/SG-S(jump out)/SG-D(grab)

Kinda messy, but I hope it helped !

Also, still not done with the okizeme section. Sorry about that. Testing at the moment on every characters to know what the maximum amount of hits before going into the air combo that leads to the unblockable loop is.

So far, looks like cS has to be the 7th hit maximum. Otherwise, pushback will make last jS or jH whiff on some characters.

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Thanks Mag! This is quite helpful. Now I can have things in mind and not develop bad habits when I play. I'll also be able to properly learn MUs.

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For pressure, 2k has weak proration but it's still nice for being a fastish low. 2k 5k 2d is a good triple low string if they want to jd one hit and mash throw or something up close. If I can then I like clS too, since it gatlings into 6P and the cancel window for normals is pretty hefty, so it's good for frame traps or staggers.

 

jD has crappy recovery but it's still a really good a2a in terms of priority, it kinda reminds me of a more narrow and longer Baiken jD. iabd jD is generally pretty safe outside of losing positioning or random shit like fullscreen whale super.

 

Also this has probably been mentioned before but 5H followups have a huge yerk window on whiff. If they know how to punish it crouching you can gimmick them into going for it, yrc then get 6H counterhit. Fun stuff to land in casuals.

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version 1.03 is out for jp and people are saying apparently that it nerfed elphelt's unblockable? i can do it just fine though...

 

 

also for something minor some notes on self-berry explosions:

you can avoid it with anything with invinicbility frames (backdash, throw, overdrives) and with 6S

you can blitz shield it too.

does not cause mortal counter in danger time (thank goodness)

you cant FD it so if you ever forget to throw it just do the above

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Grenade explosion can also be avoided vía yrc (probably rrc and prc?). I'm trying to work a cooked grenade offense (kinda like robo's 90% heat mode), and gatling into 2s and yrc are the best ways to avoid the grenade exploding in your face if you can't just throw it.

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I feel it's practically guaranteed that when the first actual gameplay patch (or next game rendition) hits that Elphelt's unblockable loop will be gone.

Still gonna learn me it, at least the easy versions.

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Maybe or maybe not. I would like to point out that Zappa's corner 2D dog loop has always been a thing since GGXX to AC (Dog 2D wasn't an unblockable anymore in +R). Not the first time Zato got an unblockable loop either.

Technically, Elphelt's is meh as far as unblockables go compared to previous GG considering the fact that you can actually deal with it with universal options.

If however they consider that it is something they have to deal with, then there are 2 possibilities:

"Let's remove/nerf the unblockable loop and buff her in other areas."

"The unblockable loop is fine and should stay as it is. Let's nerf the rest."

I would prefer the first one.

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I feel like she's still viable even if they just change the rifle properties so the unblockable loop doesn't work (rifle can't get fully charged while opponent is in blockstun or something).

Other than that I think El would be fine untouched. Or maybe give her rifle something extra since it's her worst tool right now IMO and without the loop would rarely see use altogether. 

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The way her toolkit works, they must have known the move would be used for exactly this.

 

I doubt it will be completely removed, but maybe nerfed somewhat, perhaps a harsh proration hit and/or reduced untech so comboing without meter becomes more specific/impossible.

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I agree with the idea that the untech time should be reduced. Making you unable to get unblockable rifle shot during blockstun would make 236S completely useless as a whole. It's not a normal. It's a stance and it's supposed to be an important part of her gameplay.

I would say the wisest choice would be to leave it as it is but nerf the untech time so that if you want to use it, your only choice would be to RC in order to have a combo afterwards.
 

This way, you can either decide to get max damage with shotgun loop or go for an unblockable setup if you have the requirements.

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