[Xrd] Elphelt Gameplay Discussion "The True Best Girl"

[Tomo009]

Would be pretty elegant, I think.

 

If you want a tight setup you would need 50% tension for a combo, if you leave a gap, you could probably get a YRC, but the setup wouldn't be perfect.

[Rhapsody]

Thinking about it, I'm fine with the unblockable itself, but not the loop.  My idea way back was to make the pineberry's hurtbox bigger and buff the rifle's shot's hitbox.  Just so you'd pretty much guarantee that the grenade will explode at the same time as the shot.  Hearing about the idea of less untech time forcing an RC followup instead sounds pretty good though.

[jo-p]

Disregard.

[Destin]

Does IB backdash avoid it?

[Diveman]

what kind of character is Elphelt? rushdown, space control, pressure?

[excelence]

She can be anything that u mention <3

[Magaki]

what kind of character is Elphelt? rushdown, space control, pressure?

It's a bit hard to answer that because of how versatile she is and what you will do is completely matchup dependent as some tools can be godlike in a matchup while being completely useless in others.

If however you meant "What does she do the best ?", then in that case, rushdown would be her strongest point. How good her pressure is compared to other characters like Zato, Millia or Ram is completely debatable. Consider her rushdown to be one of the best, her pressure to be above average and her zoning to be okay.

How good her mixup is is completely debatable too. Yes, she got an unblockable loop but unless you're playing against a character with no individual options and no tension, it becomes more something like "Does he know how to deal with it or not ?".

In my case, everyone in my offline scene trained for hours to be able to deal with it. They succeed around 80-90% of the time and YRCing their wake-up only affect Potemkin because of his charge mechanic on Hammerfall.

It reached a point where the unblockable loop just became a gimmick and I was back to basic shotgun loop for guaranteed damage instead.

So yeah, against people that aren't serious at all and don't want to learn the timing to deal with it, go for the UB loop. Otherwise, forget about it.

Her shotgun mixup on the other hand is very strong and becomes ridiculously rewarding in the corner.

 

Conclusion: Exactly what excelence said: You can do whatever the hell you want with her.

[Grifter]

cS' hitbox

FYI, this link doesn't work anymore.

[j1n[kr]]

some ways to get out of the unblockable:

get hit by grenade its 0 dmg, air dash away. (if person is going to wait for the unblockable shot rather than shooting first in response to you allowing yourself to get hit by the 0 dmg grenade toss)

invincible move (if you have one)

super armor move (if you have one)

burst (if you have one and they're close enough)

unplugging the opponents controller. (if you're offline)

 

I totally except a nerf bat to come her way, but I won't betray her.

 

I think her strength doesn't really come from the unblockable, more of her ridic mixup potential off of a blocked grenade is huge and just leads back into having to block the grenade again.

 

also on shotgun loops:

 

I think its better to cut the damage around 4 loops and then go into a knockdown-grenade situation rather than ending in a mash out of shotgun reloads for higher damage.

 

on neutral game:

Her neutral game is pretty good, beatable, but still good.  if you don't know what you're supposed to be doing at neutral, basically try to reach the "relationship" zone where you can hit the opponent with a j.D, a far 5S, or a 6H and look for grenades to close the gap and get close.  If you're too far to hit any of those you're in the "friendzone" and El won't be able to get married.

[Rikir]

Elphelt General stuff:

 

A document that i keep for misc. Elphelt notes.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G6cT3gQuK8c1dF6sfCJ1fk19jZL41u9oGbQjTR6FhxM/edit

[Azure J]

Elphelt General stuff:

 

A document that i keep for misc. Elphelt notes.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G6cT3gQuK8c1dF6sfCJ1fk19jZL41u9oGbQjTR6FhxM/edit

 

Oh awesome, I was just trying to put one of these together. I pretty much joined just to say thanks for this. :D

[Magaki]

some ways to get out of the unblockable:

get hit by grenade its 0 dmg, air dash away. (if person is going to wait for the unblockable shot rather than shooting first in response to you allowing yourself to get hit by the 0 dmg grenade toss)

invincible move (if you have one)

super armor move (if you have one)

burst (if you have one and they're close enough)

unplugging the opponents controller. (if you're offline)

 

I totally except a nerf bat to come her way, but I won't betray her.

-The grenade hits you frame one. You can't jump out of it. The unblockable will also be done during the toss' blockstun so if you block it or get hit, you will eat the unblockable.

-Not every reversals can actually allow you to escape the unblockable setup. Even if you manage to avoid the toss and the shot, you have to worry about the explosion which will allow Elphel to keep the loop going or at least get a nice combo off it.

-Only super armor move allowing to escape the setup is Hammerfall.

-Even if you hit Elphelt, you still have to worry about the berry explosion afterwards which will pretty much often be in her favour. Only way to avoid the whole setup and punish Elphelt is with OTG blue burst that you can read here.

The most reliable and universal way to avoid it like I mentionned is Blitzshield>Blitzshield on wake-up.

[Zeero]

unless the setup is perfect most of the time you can ib the 1st hit of the grenade and backdash the UB shot then block the explosion. Slayer has to backdash and jump because his backdash is so long (28F). Even Sin is ok to block after backdashing (24F).

The backdashing part is kinda tricky, you can just blitz the shot if you cant get the timing.

 

for badly timed UBs you can IB then jump, the shot will likely catch you in the air but the explosion hitbox isnt big enough to hit you and you can tech out.

 

its just banking on the setup not being perfect, though perfect setups seems hard to get and is very character specific since everybody's wakeup timing is different and the setups for each character is different. Depending on the setup it may be easier to get out of as well.

 

The tightest setup seems to be the regular sjspsd 236p jsh. Even the same setup depending on hitbox and character the setup may or may not be perfect. ie, on Sol if you time it right you cant get out but the same setup on someone else you can get out pretty easily.

[Magaki]

You're mistaking something here: The timing to shoot during the toss' blockstun got nothing to do with wake-up timing.

What you have to understand is that you can't get powered rifle mode if the opponent is waking up. You NEED to keep them in blockstun to be able to do the unblockable shot. Therefore, powered rifle mode is affected solely by the toss' blockstun.
What you meant is probably that you have less time to do 2P>236S against characters who wake up faster than others but the thing is that you will always have the time to do it. Whether it concerns Venom who wake up the fastest or Chipp and Sin who are the slowest, you will always be able to do 2P>236S>Toss>unblockable shot during blockstun with IB or not. The unblockable shot during blockstun is completely universal as long as you throw the grenade.
In fact, you will even have to delay the toss sometimes. Leo and Sol are pretty good examples where if you did it as fast as possible or delayed jH in order to hit with the tippity tip of the hitbox, Leo and Sol will be hit OTG by the grenade toss. That's how much time you have to do the unblockable setups and that's one of the reasons why the unblockables themselves are universal and very easy to pull off but what leads into it is completely character specifics.

The only big variable that determines whether or not you did it "perfectly" is when you hit with the unblockable shot. With the right timing, it doesn't look like the scope changed at all and that's exactly when you want to shoot. Exactly when the scope starts changing. Though, to be honest, it's much more lenient than how I'm describing it. In fact, looping against annoying hurtboxes like Zato is much harder than getting the right timing to shoot during the toss' blockstun.

Obviously you might think: "Yeah but if he messes up anyway, I can still do IB>backdash";
However, if you consider that you have to sink hours in training mode in order to know the loops against every characters, you can be damn certain that any Elphelt player worth their salt won't ever mess up unless they are playing online or something like that.
In the end, you have much higher chances to do Blitzshield>backdash or Blitz>blitz on wake up without any training rather than hoping that a legit Elphelt player will mess one of the easiest part up.

[j1n[kr]]

IIRC once the grenade toss hits you the grenade hitbox goes inactive so how many frames of hitstun are you put in that you can't jump or backdash in time to avoid the unblockable sniper shot after being hit by the berry grenade on meaty wakeup? 

[Destin]

What if you reversal backdash? Explosion still catches you after the sniper shot hits or are you too high?

[j1n[kr]]

TONY ARE YOU PLAYING ELPHELT????

[Zeero]

what I'm saying is when you do 2P 236S UB shot, say the whole process takes 10 frames. You can toss the 2P before they even wake up, and they will wake up into blocking the 2P. So if the 2p had a blockstun of 5f, then if someone woke up on the 1st frame of 1F  then that means they can get out between frames 6-10, if someone woke up on the 5th frame, then they cant get out.

 

You make it sound like as long as I can have the 2P 236S out i will get the UB shot which isn't true (i think). Theres not enough hitstun on the 2P alone for the whole UB to charge up. You'll need some time for the 2P to travel before it hits or if they're down, the 2p just bounces around until they wake up (sometimes off the wall). I feel like theres like a 1-2F gap if you IB SOMETIMES between the 1st hit and the shot where you can backdash/shield. I don't feel like you can reversal backdash because the 1st grenade hit because it hits you on frame 1

 

I feel like its pretty hard to get it perfect but i don't really spend hours practicing the UB like you said so maybe its just me.

[Magaki]

IIRC once the grenade toss hits you the grenade hitbox goes inactive so how many frames of hitstun are you put in that you can't jump or backdash in time to avoid the unblockable sniper shot after being hit by the berry grenade on meaty wakeup? 

It's actually a really interesting point that I wondered before and also something that Zeero explained in his last post.

Based on kedako's frame data, the toss itself is a level 0 attack. Basically, same hitstun as a jab. If you consider that you need a lot of frames to get the unblockable shot, there is no way you can land it during the toss' blockstun but you still can somehow. Kind of a situation where theorically it shouldn't work but it actually does.

Most likely explanation would be that hitstop actually is taken into account. In that case, the hitstop AND the blockstun of the toss would explain why you can shoot during the toss' blockstun.

Another explanation would be that the game might start getting the power-up while the opponent is waking up at a very specific frame. Would also explain why you can get the unblockable shot during the toss' blockstun but to test that, you would need to test numerous unblockable setups against different characters with a video capture card and count everytime the frames required to get the unblockable shot. A real pain I would say.

Also, my point Zeero is that you have more than enough time with the unblockable setups to do land 2P>236S and recover from rifle stance way before they finish waking up.

Though, I consider that execution is a very important point and a requirement to be a solid player so I'm obviously quite biased here and you might be right that going for IB>backdash is far from being as bad as I make it look like (For some characters, without tension, it's your only option anyway).

For anyone else reading this debate, please don't consider that what I'm saying should be the truth solely because I'm using intermediate-high level of plays to back up my claims and just believe in what you consider to be the most likely opinion.

 

 

What if you reversal backdash? Explosion still catches you after the sniper shot hits or are you too high?

Generally, you will be able to always recover in time before the explosion with a wake-up backdash. Thing however is that the toss will hit you as soon as the invul frames run out which means >unblockable shot>explosion and the loop keeps going.

Only point I know where a character can be too high guaranteed to stop the loop is Slayer who can do backdash high jump cancel. Unblockable shot will hit him but he will be too high for the explosion to touch him ending the loop. Obviously, it's only possible because of the invul frames that allow him to get hit quite high.

[j1n[kr]]

so theory crafting i guess:

if Xrd attack levels and blockstun and IB stun are the same as old GG... 

 

if thrown under 1 second for a lv 4 attack IB'ing will take it 14f and it takes ~24 frames to charge a full powered shot,  

 

this gives the user a 10f window to try and escape after an instant block as you can't begin charging the rifle by before they wake up.  

 

if its adding hitstop and blockstun for the lv4 grenade then its 14f + 15f  which makes it 29f of stun from IB'ing the grenade, and ~24f to charge the rifle, leaving 5f of margin of error for the elphelt player to hit. however during hitstop would allow someone to buffer a move during the IB hitstop to try and escape, (whats likely happening) 

 

however if the rifle is charging at a point before the block takes place, then there seems to be nothing someone can do to avoid being hit by a powered up shot outside of reversals

 

IB is gonna your best bet I guess. 

[Zeero]

i was testing IB jump and the jump doesn't happen so I would think theres only 1-2F gap? between the grenade and UB shot? if theres 3f u can jump? i dunno.

[chun_li1]

i was testing IB jump and the jump doesn't happen so I would think theres only 1-2F gap? between the grenade and UB shot? if theres 3f u can jump? i dunno.

 

 

IB grenade Toss, then FD jump out will still have the UB shot hit you. Powered/UB Shot AoE is even bigger. It will hit just barely hit you in the air, but low enough for the grenade explosion to float you afterwards.

 

 

Maybe certain smaller character can escape. I know Chipp cant.

[Destin]

TONY ARE YOU PLAYING ELPHELT????

I don't have the game.  I am playing sol until they give me back dizzy.

[j1n[kr]]

https://twitter.com/zidanel33t/status/553626025620668416

 

you can jump and get hit with 1f timing 

[Magaki]

This tweet doesn't make any sense. What does jumping out of it with 1f timing would mean ? Considering that holding either 7,8 or 9 will make you jump on the first frame, there is no need to point it out. Maybe for a high jump ? But in that case, why wouldn't it be specified ?

If you honestly have troubles believing that IB>UB shot is still airtight, here's a proof that was made by Alioune a while ago. Look closely at the inputs. You will notice I-no doesn't get a CH at all despite pressing S.

If you still can't believe it and think you're doing the setup properly but can't hit during blockstun, tell me on who exactly you're trying it out and I'll check it again. Might be possible that I overlooked it when I tested UB setups on everyone.

As for what LK wrote, he's overlooking a lot of options Elphelt have. For the fS>2H tech, the whole active frames cover 9 frames in total. Unless you play Potemkin or Slayer, I highly doubt you can rely on backdash against 2H. And if you get hit by 2H during your backdash, you can go straight for cS and deal great damage.
Then you also have to take into account cancels into 236P, 236H or Bridal/air bridal etc.

For Shotgun stance pressure, the whole point of shotgun stance in pressure is SG-P stagger. If you mash, it's true that you will eat a SG-P CH yeah. But this will make the second SG-P combo and allow the Elphelt player to hitconfirm it and go for SG-PxN>SG-H for average midscreen damage. If you got 50 tension, you can go into a big combo considering that SG-P don't prorate. And if you take into account SG-P stagger's great tension gain, the chances that it's what you're gonna eat is quite high.
Better to take less risks and FD jump instead of mashing really.

Also, who even is Icesword19xx ? Is that a famous player or another random jBBS poster ?