[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[Myoro]

Jin's 6A is pretty quick but you can't really capitalize off of it, which was its con. You have to RC it to get anything out of the overhead confirm. 

 

Haku's 6B is similar if you don't counter hit or air hit. I suppose Jin's doesn't knock down though.

[skd]

N E T P L A Y B O Y S

 

jin 6A is a very potent form of mixup because you have to be very ready for it to block it, in situations where there is much else to be looking at for a number of (good) reasons. It is not "free" to block, and if you are blocking vs predictable players and misconstruing that as you having godlike defense then that is unfortunate. Hell, i think izayoi jB for high low is reactable and it is faster than jin 6A. However, it is one of those things where she has so many options at any given time it is extremely difficult to block, forget it if you end up in throw range or you get thrown off by something unexpected. It's extremely good for mixup.

 

Even at extreme familiarity, it's hard to maintain that kind of reactive speed between multiple options. Jin 6A is a smidge slower, usually, blocking it in a linear or predictable situation means you are playing bad players. It is really good, if used properly.

 

Simply reacting to a character crouching for a fast low is not possible. If you don't agree with me, i'd really love to play offline and test your reactions, but realistically im saying this to be intimidating. I think i have a pretty damn good idea on reactions. Hopefully you can take my word!

 

edit: myoro, relius 6a is not a good overhead imo lol. even if it is comboable, it is far from strong. the animation is too blatant, it is too slow. It really...shouldnt hit often, even when they arent looking for it. Just knowing it CAN come is good enough. when it comes to an overhead like that...i think that makes it /really/ weak. There are a few tricks you can do to disguise the animation (unsummon dash 6a is a good one) but i think thats just a gimmick, you can get used to that. If we want to talk about standing overheads, it is definitely one of the weaker ones :>

[Airk]

Jin's 6A is pretty quick but you can't really capitalize off of it, which was its con. You have to RC it to get anything out of the overhead confirm. 

 

Well, you can also combo off it on counterhit if you have your act together, and it's quick enough that it can also work as a frametrap of sorts.

[Zedar90]

The PSN preorder for Japanese CP Extend is up, and as known the price for either version is 5800 yen. 

PS4 PS3

You can preorder up until the 19th, and they will charge for it after the 16th, and if the funds aren't there by the 18th, the pre order will be canceled.

It has preload.

 

The file size for PS3 are 9.5GB and PS4 are 11.8GB

[chzchan]

What is in the extra 2.3GB for the PS4 version?

[Zedar90]

What is in the extra 2.3GB for the PS4 version?

I don't think Arc has said the difference between the versions.

Maybe the movies are in 1080 instead of 720. Or maybe the music is higher quality.

Or maybe it's nothing, only that PS4 download is less compressed.

[coil]

i use the timing as a guide (block low for a little while, then high) so i have a hard time against a noel guy... its very creative with the stance mixup, and the fast oh/slow sweep drives me crazy

[Wild Candy]

So are there any good Celica players right now, or is she mostly considered unviable/underdeveloped?

[DarkRios III]

I know I may be the only guy here that cares about it but if anyone gets word of the Xbox One version being up for digital preorder by all means let me know. Thanks.

[Tong]

So are there any good Celica players right now, or is she mostly considered unviable/underdeveloped?

Our Lord and Saviour kaqn

[QSpec]

How's this shaping up?

 

Last I checked, people were super down on it.  Has the situation improved?

[skd]

as a GOOD DUSTLOOP MEMBER, ill try to push a discussion here while we wait for 2.0, maybe educate some people, since apparently not many people have very accurate ideas on how offensive, high/low/throw mixup is implemented PRACTICALLY and end up with unrealistic expectations of their own reactions or something terrible because they only play bad players (practical application is important, because while people find the ideas easily agreeable, their application of those ideas onto BB's tools is very off). I don't care about netplay personal exp, low level "opinions" that dont have much reasonable basis or whatever, this is about efficient implementation in BLAZBLUE not the 2 delay game that resembles it. The fact that i have to spell this out makes me feel some type of way but you know, i am a largely optimistic person (and an elitist asshole, as you can sum up from this preamble).

 

i want to talk about the kind of "mixup philosophy" that goes into characters at very high level. What is good mixup? What is consistent mixup, different styles of mixup and things like that.

 

Obviously we have good ideas of the extremes. characters like rachel and valkenhayn, with unreactable instant overheads, and we have slow standing overheads at the other end of the spectrum. But, there are a lot of speeds in between. So...how do you hit a competent opponent with a reactable mixup? What kind of reactable mixups can we consider consistent?

 

Normally, these reactable mixups are comboable, or don't leave you in a terrible position on block (reasonable, considering the fact that they are a lot harder to land), where a lot of other extremely fast overheads are unsafe without meter, or lack cancel options.

 

You cannot speed up a move with an RC, but you can make one safe, even give you a better combo. So realistically, these pan out as more useful. While you might be able to do a slow overhead and retain pressure (this implies less investment in actually going for it, where other overheads could leave you punishable or ) couldnt you pick a better option to use in your pressure? This kind of limits the usage of things like ragna 6b and gauntlet hades. While ragna 6B DOES let you keep something resembling pressure, why would i go for that when i could opt for better usage of my advantage situation?

 

This contrast is seen in two normals that were recently mentioned, jin 6a and relius 6a. obviously, jin 6a is much, much better. You can't quite take these in a void. There are distinctions between the two, as well as the presence of strong mixup with meter (you CAN get a fuzzy off relius 6A with meter provided they don't instant block it, then...) but comparing all sorts of situations that come from usage of the overhead (how fast is it? reversal on reaction? cancel options into it? what kind of resources can i use to supplement the utility of this overhead? do i have a way to obscure it? how easy is it to get my opponent to respect in a situation where they'll have to eat this? how beneficial is meter for this overhead?) we can come to the conclusion that jin 6A is ultimately much more useful.

 

Ill take a consistent, low damage/hard to convert mixup over a high damage mixup that is only going to hit once in a blue moon. Of course, it isnt so black and white and reward IS generally mediated around how hard it is to hit someone with something like this (theres a reason why jin overhead is only comboable on RC) but consistent mixups are much more effective.It is much more difficult to hit with jin 6A than it is with wolf brake jA. People will sometimes react to 6A! What makes this distinction different than people reacting to relius 6A more often than Jin 6A?

 

what makes some mixup consistent, but others not? what is worth going for?

 

Well, as far as the current top level of play has demonstrated, we can definitely call some forms of mixup relatively consistent. Jin 6A falls into this category. This is the kind of mixup where I feel it is difficult to guard unless you are aware of it. If you expect something else, or dont see it coming you are going to get hit. This isn't a property of its 19 frames, but rather that in conjunction with it's animation. WHATEVER it is, it has proven itself. The number of frames doesnt necessarily matter. Another good example is hakumen 6B, even then that is really pushing it as far as reaction. I think it's possible, but super, super difficult. Again, this isnt because of the speed but because of the animation.

 

Where else do we see things that are...difficult to actually defend against successfully on reaction?

 

Oh, throws.

 

Yes, throws, no, i dont give a shit what you heard from dacidbro, you can react to a throw. Yes, there is more to a throw than the exclamation mark. Yes, throws have subtle animations which could make reacting to them difficult. However, it is NOT that simple. You are not going to tech a throw unless you are ready for it, and applying focus properly is a huge skill as well. It is well within human ability to consistently react, given the right frame of mind, but getting thrown off (pun not intended) by an unpredictable opponent makes throws extremely strong offensively. Same goes for other forms of mixup.

 

Within high level play though, people will get thrown. It is a very worthwhile form of mixup to pursue, especially because the reward for throws are VERY HIGH. However, there are a few ways to defend against throw properly which shape your pressure structure, which i will cover in a later post if people would like.

 

There comes a point where looking for one thing will impede you when looking for another. However, some things are just so damn slow that you don't even have to be looking, or it does not detract from your defense enough to cause any verifiable harm. This is why relius 6a is straight booty (highlighting this for you, myoron). Its too slow, too obvious to make someone really that scared IMO. It might hit occasionally, but vs an opponent with good defense it will not pan out so successfully, you are much better off just taking normal pressure. So, when i talk about "harder to hit with" this is harder to hit with to a point where it is kind of a waste of opportunity. But, if youre playing vs bad players go for it i guess? Not to say it is useless, as sometimes going for the safe mixup is the right choice. but, i am only talking about raw offense. How to open people up MOST effectively.

 

remember that whole "decent at best" quip?

 

Well, okay. Relius mixup is...reactable (fuzzy is dead next version okay), but what makes it strong is that it is hard to react to and also very safe. It is this safety that allows him room to work. That safety in itself is good, so safer mixups (that are not necessarily the most difficult to block) are still very useful. Relius offense is great precisely because he can maintain difficult to guard mixup while being very safe and having a TON of options, the overall value on his pressure is definitely not "decent at best", lol. Safe mixups that are low commitment aren't necessarily bad to go for. If you lose nothing for it, why not? But yeah, at this point i'm going a bit off topic. I want to focus on how to open people up.

 

So, a rough example of what is good in that "looking for one thing" line of thought? While looking for jin 6A, instead of 6A he whiffs 5A and he throws you. Or, instead he takes a step back, and you realize this. And then he throws you. Or, he just throws you.

 

This isn't necessarily a 50/50 mixup or anything of the sort. You could mash, fuzzy jump, backdash. There are a ton of ways to response, even just blocking well. you could respond to this situation VERY well and very consistently, but he also has the option to pressure you normally, maybe even moving you into a more disadvantaged position.

 

However, this is good mixup. This is consistent mixup. Strong players will get hit by this if implemented properly, unpredictably, and with good regard to risk/reward. The best players will straight up block or tech vs these tools reasonably well, but even then it is STILL "good". Anything we can do to improve our offensive reasoning. Maybe, one day people will all get so fucking good that we will guard against throw/18f overhead like gods. I dont think so, but this is one step closer, so bear with me for the sake of example.

 

So, simply put it isn't only about the overhead, implementation of the overhead is also very important. How demanding it is to successfully guard (or tech) is instrumental in pressure structure.

 

In a heavy blockstun situation, where I KNOW i don't have to worry about the threat of a throw for x number of frames, it is easier to guard against jin 6A during that time. Normally, this means jin placing himself into a bigger risk for opening me up, as blockstun literally limits your opponent. Why does he need to extend himself that much to hit me?

 

Vs some players you might be able to run this kind of mixup. It definitely would be more effective, as it is in your interest to minimize risk, right? But that priority is precisely why a good player who adheres to risk/reward well will be expecting, and ready to guard against something like that. It makes it "obvious", in a sense. Eventually, we have to draw lines at where things become superfluous as situations and responses start to cross over into eachother, and these lines generally dictate optimized responses.

 

Talking from my corner of expertise, Izayoi is a great example of having reactable, consistent, strong mixup with very unique properties that should help flesh out some ideas.

 

Let's talk about her meterless Gain Art mixup, because her metered mixup is actually just unreactable, flat out. Fuzzies, noir edge is 10f, i dont know what else to say lol.

 

she has a good medium between reward and consistency of mixup that overall ends up in her standard offense being very strong. Her damage is really high, her mixups are really fast (For the sake of numbers off dash, jA is 16f, jB is 18f, jC is 21f, and her 2A is an 8 frame low), and are all generally advantageous on block. She has a ton of cancel options, being able to go for IAD's off certain things, whiffing into lows, throws, occasionally left right. Shes a fiend. If you block, you are going to get opened up. She does come with her own meter though, but that also means she has the option to burn resources for strong, hard to disrespect mixups.

 

But these dashes are also only really possible in neutral, because you cant cancel into them. Or, in IAD's cases they are much slower, which means you do have to commit heavily for those really fast mixups, as the safer ones are a bit slower. She can do all of these things to kill you but, only given the right implementation of respect, or resources.

 

Right off the bat, there is a limitation to how safe she can be while performing these mixups. This is intentional, and is part of the design of mixup for her, and in this game. As a result of her offense being so reliant on that, she is also given ways to dissuade attempts to disrespect her pressure. Certain reversal safe strings, low profiles, high damage, strong conversions, good frame traps, and heavy frame advantage. But, this means you have to really work your magic, and get your opponent to "let you" so to speak, unless you have the resources to back it up.

 

When i say that, i mean that i believe dash jB is reactable. It is her go-to overhead for a number of character specific hoo-ha reasons that i won't go into, but it is 18f. I personally think this is reactable, but it is "one of those". Particularly demanding to block. On defense, coupled with other forms of mixup, it becomes nigh unreactable (which is where the focus on implementation comes in), given the respect. The necessity for respect that the tools design somewhat constrict you to ultimately allows her higher reward than other characters with safer mixups of the same speed, because it is "harder" to land, so to speak.

 

Though, not all mixups are balanced equally in a void (gauntlet hades cry your heart out, you negative, reactable piece of trash), you cannot really look at WHY these things are the way they are in that scope. In part of her larger character design, she needs resources. She is a mode change character. Normal mode is centric around neutral play and staggered pressure, her only standing overhead in normal mode is negative on block, uncomboable, and has a literally useless feint (not really related, but i wanted to vent).

 

While GA more than makes up for this on Izayoi's behalf, not everyone gets the nice life. Some characters are outright better than others, unfortunately, especially when it comes to certain properties. Not everyone can mix up, not everyone can play neutral, and not every cloud has a silver lining. Sometimes design just does not pan out well.

 

But when it comes to Izayoi opening people up in GA, she is proficient, and when it comes to keep respect, she is proficient, ultimately meaning her GA offense as a whole is hella good.

 

Those are the kinds of things to look at when analyzing a character's offensive tools, and this isnt even all of her shit, just a very general look at a specific area.

 

I hope this gets people to look at things in a more accurate light :>

 

this is actually the longest and least sarcastic "i am fed up with seeing dumb things" post i have ever made.

[Hollysmoke]

I was just saying saying that you need to RC Jin 6A on confirm for damage, nothing about reaction. This is just one long standing fallacies that people fall for: just because it looks good on paper doesn't necessarily mean it's practical. You have 15 frames to break a throw. That's less than a quarter of a second, and for the most part you'll see players do it because they predicted it was going to happen, not necessarily on reaction the MOMENT it happens. Just because Jin 6A can't be comboed meterless doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, you just have to know when to use it. Conditioning can go both ways; you keep using that really fast 6A overhead, they'll learn to block it, you lose that tool in your mix-ups. It's a matter of rotating and mixing around the gimmicks you plan to bust out for a particular match, making it more difficult for people to PREDICT as well as REACT to what you're doing.

 

I don't know what you mean when you say "in the void" though.

[C0R]

Hi folks.

 

Got to play Extend over the weekend.

 

Let me know if you guys have any questions about GENERAL MECHANICS, µ12 or Izayoi.

[skd]

I was just saying saying that you need to RC Jin 6A on confirm for damage, nothing about reaction. This is just one long standing fallacies that people fall for: just because it looks good on paper doesn't necessarily mean it's practical. You have 15 frames to break a throw. That's less than a quarter of a second, and for the most part you'll see players do it because they predicted it was going to happen, not necessarily on reaction the MOMENT it happens. Just because Jin 6A can't be comboed meterless doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, you just have to know when to use it. Conditioning can go both ways; you keep using that really fast 6A overhead, they'll learn to block it, you lose that tool in your mix-ups. It's a matter of rotating and mixing around the gimmicks you plan to bust out for a particular match. 

 

I don't know what you mean when you say "in the void" though.

 

When i said "in a void" referring to gauntlet hades, just looking at gh and comparing it in properties (unsafe on block, 24f, deliberate animation) to another overhead doesnt sum up it's overall worth, because of how it works in tandem with other aspects of the game. When i mentioned it earlier relating to jin and relius 6a, i meant to say that estimating it's value and overall coming to a conclusion on why jin 6A is strong comes from its application into a number of situations.

 

to be fair, at higher levels of play it shouldnt be about conditioning. If a player is just as good as you, and doesnt have a knowledge disadvantage it wont really about rotating, you need a strong foundation. The threat alone of something being POSSIBLE is what should allow your opponent to defend against it, regardless of whether it is being used often or not. Of course, getting familiar with it is one thing, but high level of play has more than enough of that. I want to really talk about this, because thats a kind of dangerous idea about how to implement offense.  

 

i am talking about fighting against optimized defensive reactions disregarding any committed reaction. When i say committed reaction, i mean something like, someone inputting a throw tech because they thought a throw was coming. That was not a predictive reaction, that was a committed input. When i say react to a throw, i literally mean reaction. Like, raw, i would not have pressed this otherwise reaction.

[Hollysmoke]

When i said "in a void" referring to gauntlet hades, just looking at gh and comparing it in properties (unsafe on block, 24f, deliberate animation) to another overhead doesnt sum up it's overall worth, because of how it works in tandem with other aspects of the game. When i mentioned it earlier relating to jin and relius 6a, i meant to say that estimating it's value and overall coming to a conclusion on why jin 6A is strong comes from its application into a number of situations.

 

Okay, so we're basically saying the same thing. I think the problem from netplay to offline is a really popular notion that "overheads are bad, they only work on netplay" so people just think that overheads are bad and never use them, when it should be about when and how to use them. Even with Gauntlet Hades, can't you cancel it while in the air to improvise some high/low mix-ups? The fact that it's so predictable can maybe used against your opponent. You know they might try to punish it, so you'll cancel it into to something you can punish their punish with, etc. 

 

EDIT: That was my point about spamming the same gimmick over and over. You keep doing 6A, they're gonna catch on. It's not the good kind of conditioning is what I'm trying to say. If you're mixing in gimmicks once in awihle, however, the threat remains in play in a "Will they or won't they?!" kind of way. If you don't use them once in awhile, that threat disappears. Or, on the flip side of the coin, by never using it, they think you're waiting to use it, so the threat is still there (which is what I think you're saying). 

[skd]

Okay, so we're basically saying the same thing. I think the problem from netplay to offline is a really popular notion that "overheads are bad, they only work on netplay" so people just think that overheads are bad and never use them, when it should be about when and how to use them. Even with Gauntlet Hades, can't you cancel it while in the air to improvise some high/low mix-ups? The fact that it's so predictable can maybe used against your opponent. You know they might try to punish it, so you'll cancel it into to something you can punish their punish with, etc. 

 

EDIT: That was my point about spamming the same gimmick over and over. You keep doing 6A, they're gonna catch on. It's not the good kind of conditioning is what I'm trying to say. If you're mixing in gimmicks once in awihle, however, the threat remains in play in a "Will they or won't they?!" kind of way. If you don't use them once in awhile, that threat disappears. Or, on the flip side of the coin, by never using it, they think you're waiting to use it, so the threat is still there (which is what I think you're saying). 

 

No, i literally mean that by considering all of my opponents options given a situation (is 6a a reasonable threat at this point?). Using, or not using it, the threat does not disappear if my opponent can hit me with 6A in a given time frame. There is no better indicator of what i should be ready for than the risk reward. And of course, this reasons into dividing my focus in a certain way.

 

The urgency of me looking for 6A in a meterless pressure situation is low, so my priorities are going to be on looking for other, more urgent options. Throw, pressure resets, places where I can perhaps establish an advantage of my own?

 

Similarly, 6A is low priority to the jin player, on the chance that he does 6A and I do end up guarding, he loses pressure, even gets punished. This risk/reward shapes this because, while he can "one up" me and maybe smack me with a 6a that does almost nothing off of a risky situation, there are other things i can do. I can backdash, fuzzy jump, mash him out, etc. At the end of the day, it really is not in his interest to 6a me unless he gets a sizeable reward, considering the investment he places in it to actually hit me if i have good defense. It isnt in his interest, and as such, it isnt in my interest. This is important, as right mindset on defense can really help shape your opponent's pressure in making it more manageable. If you defense is good, you /will/ force your opponent to make better choices on offense. At high level play, just ONE hit is so much, it takes a lot to get, you have to make the most of every opportunity because your opponent is doing the exact same.

 

Alternatively, we can think about a metered situation, or where hitting me with 6A will give him enough meter to RC. The threat is suddenly much higher! So, you could take this as "oh, if you look for the overhead, its much easier to throw you!" but that isnt the only factor in considering what is most urgent to focus on. At this point, throw may still yield similar reward to a 6A combo, but if he hits you with 6A /he has to blow 50 meter to convert it/. The throw would end up leaving him with more meter and similar damage. As such, in this situation i'm still going to prioritize throw, but yeah, i'll try my best to guard against everything. Its difficult, but some gut feelings and reads can come into play here, as well as thinking about specific frames when you can get thrown, or when you can get hit by overhead and playing around that. Blockstun does not allow you to get green thrown for a number of frames after you leave it, so thinking about that you should prioritize looking for 6A then, etc etc. I hope this is fairly straightforward, i definitely will go into it more if necessary.

 

Making these good defensive choices on what to react to will make you last a lot longer whether you successfully guard or not.

 

I'd also like to take this opportunity to explicitly state that everything i wrote considers, and ignores "predictive committed reactions". Using the throw example from earlier, where you may press throw in anticipation of a throw...that is not what i mean about /reactions/. I am making this distinction now, please do not misconstrue anything i write about reactions as anything but reactions. I am well past misinterpreting what is a reaction and what is anticipated timing.

 

as far as "how do i build good defensive reactions?" that isnt something i can so easily answer. If you are having trouble switching guard/teching for something despite waiting for it, you might be looking for it a bit too hard and getting thrown off as far as timing or something. I say this because...this definitely happens to a lot of really good players. But in terms of raw reaction speeds it's just something you have to train. Keep playing, keep playing. It's a mix of familiarity and second nature acknowledgement. If you think too hard about it, you'll just slow yourself down. Reiterating that this kind of discussion is around top level play mentality, so while certain things may apply in some scopes i am talking about dealing with optimized decisions and reactions. Ultimately meaning it invalidates other modes of approach to the game competitively, because better regard to risk/reward WILL cause you to win against someone who is not thinking about things nearly as efficiently.

[chzchan]

Hi folks.

 

Got to play Extend over the weekend.

 

Let me know if you guys have any questions about GENERAL MECHANICS, µ12 or Izayoi.

 

Just from feel, how much faster does barrier drain just by holding 4A+B? Does it drain more on hit as well?

Does charging Crush Trigger deal more barrier damage?

How is the new gravity? Do characters jump higher or accelerate upward faster as well or just downward?

Have general running accelerations been altered at all (I guess you can only really tell for Mu-12/Izayoi, though)? 

[SixWingedAngel]

Thanks based SKD

[mAc Chaos]

myoron

SKD, good post. But don't insult people.

 

Writing on throw teching would be interesting because whenever I throw people online or offline they're like "wtf I should be able to tech that on reaction, how did I get thrown 17 times girgherigheijg"

[greatfernman]

Yes, throws, no, i dont give a shit what you heard from dacidbro, you can react to a throw

as evidenced by you teching my throw, shouting "REACTIONS!" and then feeling yourself for the rest of the match. 

[Chaoschao222]

SKD, good post. But don't insult people.

'I definitely... I definitely thought... I can't option select this. I thought that was actually his name.'

-SKD now/now/two-thousand now

[mAc Chaos]

Wait what. I only just realized SKD wrote TWO huge posts. No wonder I thought it suddenly got smaller.

 

Anyway, I think this is a good discussion to have, because you still have people who think getting hit by any reactable move is inexcusable and just a matter of execution, like blocking it should be a foregone conclusion. Reminds me of how Star Demon would flail himself over it.

 

In fact SKD, why not make this an article?

[Litherain-XIII]

yes please do because its amazing how we still have players who dont know the difference between reaction and just purely guessing by pressing buttons because they thought something was coming. also if possible please extend an article of your philosophy about "offense and mix up / pressure" to open up opponents. that caught my interest

[Myoro]

Myoron XD

 

Ultimately I do agree with what you said here SKD. At the time I held ideas of Pressure and mix-up to be completely different things, thinking Relius pressure was phenomenal, but his mix-ups were pretty standard and the whole dynamic was that he could make up for quality of mix-up with quantity thanks to 6D resetting his pressure. I always thought Relius' offence was good (but not as good as I know it is now after almost a year.)

 

I said that Relius' mix-up was decent at best when I wasn't informed about the extent of what he can do, and ever since I've made it my mission to find out just what the man is capable of by studying the tools available to him. I've since found some amazing stuff that's only getting more amazing come 2.0. (look forward to it guys)

 

I still don't regret bringing it up the first time because I actually learned a lot about Rel gameplay in the resulting anarchy, even when that shut the original thread down. I'm willing to say it was more enriching than the conversations that was happening prior to it. I didn't even know Relius /had/ a fuzzy until  I brought that discussion here.

 

But that's all ancient history. Nice posts everyone.