[Xrd] Tier Discussion

[Poultrygeist]

He's also much harder than "churn and mash throw from halfscreen while everyone else is trying to learn basic gameplay mechanics", if that's your metric for "hard for new players to deal with."

This is what I was going to say.  When you hear wek 1 online complaints it's almost always about grapplers.

[AtTheGates]

Details for FAB's tier list. We had a translator from japanese to german, but there's always a chance something got lost in translation.

• Zato: very strong Okizeme; flying and Break the Law are very strong neutral game tools, YRC options are strong.
• Millia: fast speed both in her neutral game as in her Okizeme (= many attempts to hit during her Oki). Very good YRC options.
• Elphelt: Very high corner damage. Shotgun Stance neutral game is very strong. Pineberry Grenade forces the opponent to act, he cannot ignore it. Has a very good overhead. Overall strong tools.
• Faust: Biggest strength is his reach. Item throw is strong (FAB gave no reason, but it's probably for the same reason El's grenade is strong). Also has a very good overhead and his overall toolset is strong.
• Axl: Rensengeki, both with and without YRC is very strong. 2S & his shoryuken move are very good anti-airs, and paired with his range, make him strong. Also, he has no trouble using 6HS because of 2S and his shoryuken. (When we asked him about Axl's sparrow stance, he said it was strong)
• Sol: ALL of his special moves are strong and useful. He can kill in two combos. Although FAB considers his gunflame okizeme "normal", he says it is strong anyway. (when asked for 5K and dragon install, FAB said both is strong)
• Ky: Stunedge YRC is a very strong neutral tool. f.S and 2HS very good moves with high reward, 2HS also a very good anti-air. 3H has a very high reward as well. Overall Ky is a very strong character in the neutral game. Just like Sol, he only possesses "normal" high / low Okizeme, but he considers it strong as well.
• Chipp: Speed, teleports and invisiblity are the 3 main reasons he is strong. FAB also specifically mentioned to ability to "steal" a match with many hits, when the opponent is already on low HP (ignoring damage scaling). I also asked him whether he thinks that invisibility is still strong despite the nerf, he said yes.
• Sin: all he said was two words: range & power. When we asked him whether that's all, he said "that's all."
• I-No: her high / low game loops into itself and is hard to block. High damage with no meter. HCL YRC is strong.
• May: "One Button Character" (jokingly), all her HS-Normals are strong. High damage in the corner. Her setplay is strong.
• Venom: His zoning game is so strong that he could almost (but not quite) win with it by itself. His damage is just "OK", but his meterless combos are good. In FABs opinion, Venom has to be played perfectly for him to be in B-tier, otherwise he would be in a lower tier.
• Leo: "Kusoge Character". His blockstrings and his combos are almost the same. His resets are strong.
• Bedman: His combos have become easier and lead into his Okizeme more easily as in 1.0. His 6P ist  particularly strong.
• Slayer: K Dandy Pile gives very strong combo options, which made him a slightly stronger character. Otherwise he has the same problems he had before. 6P & 2H are very good normals.
• Ram: His first word about her: "dame" - useless. The placement of swords has been nerfed hard, j.P nerf is also very hard for her. Her damage is OK, and her midscreen okizeme a little better than before the nerf.
• Potemkin: too big. Would be a strong character if he was smaller. His normals are hard to use. Potubster & hammerfall yrc are strong. Trishula buff helped. Trishula okizeme hides pot's high / low behind it. He considers him hard to play.

[Nyaa]

Useless...

 

Reminding everyone of this excellent picture: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9B2w7kIAAAP0YL.png

[D.R.F.]

^ it's so beautiful

[ChaseRLewis]

Ram just has no way to win in neutral anymore. She had to runaway and try to confirm sword hit->Daruo or use the hitbox of a sword to bait bad movement she could swat down with j.P. Now she just can't hit you in neutral without you messing up BAD and if you are in the corner wake-up burst literally kills all her damage / okizeme / and everything else 100% guaranteed because it knocks down her swords so even if she baits your burst you aren't going to eat significant punishment at all. In training mode she doesn't seem much different in match it just is hilarious how she fails to function as a character now. She needs j.P and the hurtbox on her swords reduced to JUST the balls when they are swinging as of now S sword is useless beyond reason in neutral and H one isn't much better, but watching 2H sword get 2P'd to death by someone waking up mashing when you are stand blocking at sweep distance to just to bait a DP at sweep distance and the ball falls to its sad little death ... ugh. Also not 100% sure they should disappear on block but if their hurt boxes were just the balls I imagine you could work around that fairly easily.  

[Synyster17]

hi so me and a couple others made a random tier list

 

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/xrd/index.html?tc=ya0-tres6reraoc4and93ffz3feyfrhfanhi6yhj8rk2aneod6es8v6maqhfd7mraof14q9cao-bk5

[Nyaa]

I hate to say it, but Jack-O' surpassed Ram on the cute butt tier list.

[Synyster17]

I hate to say it, but Jack-O' surpassed Ram on the butt tier list.

 

oh by far

[Clousephinat]

j.P is nerfed? How exactly is that? I'm still seeing Ram players spamming this along with 5P without end, seems the same to me.

[D.R.F.]

It's not BAD per se, but I guess it definitely doesn't do the job as well as it had once did

[Nyaa]

jP got nerfed with slightly more recovery so it's not as mashable as it was before. Prior to the nerf jPPPPP mash was true blockstring even if you IB. Now it's not, one IB and Ram can get air thrown.

 

It's also slightly harder to confirm off random jP hits in the air as well, before you could get 5 to 6 jP before doing j8D, now you kinda have to settle with 3. The recovery is very noticable for Ram players at least.

 

It's still a pretty good air normal, being fast, good hitbox and slight combo, but it's way worse on block than it was.

[rayplay]

It's also slightly harder to confirm off random jP hits in the air as well, before you could get 5 to 6 jP before doing j8D, now you kinda have to settle with 3.

Not to sound condescending, but why would you need more than three to begin with? 

[D.R.F.]

Not to sound condescending, but why would you need more than three to begin with?

The ram player syndrome

[Syklone]

Why shouldn't she have more than three? The same concept applies

[Nyaa]

Not to sound condescending, but why would you need more than three to begin with? 

 

You don't. It was more a way to illustrate in what way it was nerfed.

 

On hit it's pretty much the same as before, same use and utility. The real nerf was on jP on block and whiff.

[NecroTheReaper]

Based on my understanding of "cancelling", the recovery of a move shouldn't matter. Unless Ram's j.P got a level reduction (currently listed as a lvl 1 move with 11f of blockstun), it should have 5f of blockstun to cover its 5f startup even on air IB

[ChaseRLewis]

Her j.P on block is much worse than it was before and has no ability to chain them into an air unblockable setup or anything else. It's like she has more gravity when using them (best way i can explain it from a feel point of view).  It is literally worthless and dangerous to do if the 1st doesn't hit. Also from my experience j.P won't even hit twice almost half the time making it inconsistent. Hm, felt like a possible hitbox nerf as it used to hit more directly above her but when chaining it doesn't hit anywhere near directly above her or slightly behind her anymore.

 

Her neutral is crap, especially if somone has a low profile move that beats f.S. She is literally f.S and pray until you die and at high level (hell even mid-level) that hardly if ever works. Daruo also was slowed down so hit confirming crouching is now harder and f.S->Daruo is punishable super easily.

[Nyaa]

Huh? Dauro isn't slowed down. The green version have 1f more recovery. Or are there other unlisted changes?

[nyyyyy]

I mean, heat extend does its job (extra damage and a fuck ton of tension.) Real culprit is that useless #R heat knuckle. I am rather scared of what he would become if he got ac heat back (even if I think he could use/needs it.)

 

Where do people even get this info from? Can you look up the Danisen ranking somewhere? Would really like to know what characters the top bracket is mostly composed of. I find jackshit via Google.

[BloodWolF]

[Deleted]

[Coffeeling]

Dogura made a list.

[FeedtheHead]

translate the axes?

[zankoku]

Vertical is top tier to bottom tier

Horizontal is "has faults" to "solid", left to right.

[NecroTheReaper]

Who does Dogura play?  Unless its a MU that Bedman is particularly strong in, I dont think he's that close to being as good as El.  Honestly a lot of things look weird to me (Faust being weaker than Slayer and Sin) but I havnt seen Dogura play alot.

[zankoku]

Dogura mains Sin. Prior to 1.1, he mained Sol and dabbled with Sin and Leo.