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HeWhoRocksAlot

[Xrd] Tier Discussion

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Millia gets pretty boned by netplay IMO, dropping setplay etc. due to lag fucks you cause your health is crap and her mixups were already pretty hard to block even without delay, so it's not like you get THAT much benefit from it become true unreactable.

 

By comparison Ky gets high damage with low effort combos that are really hard drop even in netplay (DP loop lol) and his mixups that were easily reactable before become unreactabe, so he goes from being generally whatever to being an extremely stable damage machine with really strong mixups that lead into huge damage.  He's like netplay Minazuki.

 

Yeah, same as Rachel in BB. Heavy Oki /Mixup characters tend to get punished the most by drops and also thus tend to be hit hardest by netplay.

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setplay characters are the best in netplay because if you just start your sequence  couple frames earlier nothing changes and you run  train on the persona nd they are now less liekly to react

 

if you have dropped frames i nyour netplay something is seriously screwed w. your net

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You typically can't react to the strongest set play characters offline, so playing them online offers little to no improvement.

Meanwhile characters with reactable/bad set play (who are often strong at other things) suddenly become good to great in that area once you introduce a few frames of delay.

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Same goes with I-No, playing online with poor connection has caused me to get many times a PRC after HCL or the note instead of a YRC which is really annoying, I agree that Ky has always been in fact the best character to abuse his shit online, with the exception if anything being Pot the first ranked in +R. His mixups that are not that hard to prevent offline becomes almost unreactable online, if you're not blocking already he will punish you like a fool with Stun Dipper, but if you're low blocking that much he will punish you with 214K with huge damage afterwards, and if you try to beat him far away he will spam his projectiles waiting for you to get near him. His options for him to do are clear and pretty easy to put in practice, while other characters need to think ahead of it and work a lot harder to turn the tables of the match.

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I really feel like the only way to judge character balance is by results. When you don't have a player fully exploiting a character's potential, you tend to over or under value a character's tools because they have to exist with the character's weaknesses. People always want to play theory fighter on characters they don't really understand. Often the first opinion on a character advocated by a prominent player is the one that sticks.

You can even look at how the opinion on a character can greatly change within the same game version. In early +R, Slayer and Robo Ky were very highly rated. They both received some buffs, but the reason I think they were perceived as such strong characters was that their buffs (and lack of game changing nerfs) complemented their preexisting gameplan. Other characters, like Eddie had to re-learn neutral/setups and so were underrated early on.

Input from active competitive players is an essential part of any decent tier list. If there are few competitive players for a character, your evaluation of that character is going to suffer.

I definitely agree with you. I try not to do too much theory fighter on characters I don't know well, but sometimes I can't help it. I would say though that in the case of Yun and Zato that we've seen enough of these characters to fairly say that they are pretty good (but I couldn't have an in-depth argument about whether Yun is top 12 or top 3). With Yun I don't think you need to be a character expert to recognize that he has a lot of good attributes. How people use the a character's attributes is what will ultimately determine how dominant that character is, but we can still look at the data and say of a character's moves that they are safe, have a great hitbox, combo options etc. In that sense, there is a certain baseline of a character's 'goodness' (sorry best word I got) that can be recognized. They might end up being overrated, but I feel like they don't usually end up being terrible.

That being said, I'd also add that these things need to be evaluated over time. I feel like it is common for people to get hyped up and radically overestimate things on day/week one. We can observe the character (or play them) and draw some conclusions, but you definitely need a good amount of information and not just a brief glance.

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Same goes with I-No, playing online with poor connection has caused me to get many times a PRC after HCL or the note instead of a YRC which is really annoying

Playing against I-no in lag is annoying. About 10x worse than Ky's still slow lows and overheads. Hell simply avoiding easily-read CL and notes with lag is far harder than shifting 1 to 4 with Ky's massively long GS start-up. Don't get me started on actually trying to block I-no's mix-up game online. I just flick between 1 and 4 as fast as possible the whole time.

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I honestly hope the next GG iteration gets that bitch Ramlethal some nerfs. She's... annoying to fight against. I can't believe she's the only char that feels more like a BB character with those long-ass combos and hit confirms that make the enemy float for a considerable time (I don't mind about this, as soon as it was a counter hit, NOT A NORMAL ONE).

 

Millia and Zato, I don't mind about them. Always hard to deal with, but at least I know them already.

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I'd say lag for any char is pretty annoying. 

 

Like millia 6K.. shit so easy to block but I hits me more often than it needs to cause of the lag. 

 

I'm pretty sure people feel the same way when they get hit by chipps command grab or rekka overhead. 

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Yea true, before you started reacting to 6K after you have been hit by it a million times in the same string lol

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Pretty much.

 

Not like tier list means much to most of us.  I've never once played a match in any GG iteration and felt as if tier had anything to do with the outcome.

I agree except with xrd potemkin.

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Is Xrd Pot really that bad?  Most of the JP tier lists I'm seeing don't rate him lower than anyone else.  He lost mid screen game because of the 2S and Heat Knuckle nerf, but everyone lost mid screen stuff.  They gave him ICPM for corner push too.  Might not be as good versatile as Venom's new j.D, but it's still a good tool for him to have.  When he's in the corner he's just as scary as he always was, right?

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The things he lost hurt him more than the other characters. You can win with him of course, but it is a struggle.

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The game taking place in a widescreen really hurt Pot. He got things easy to approach anyone. As soon as he was in the mid of screen, you knew you were in his reach. Not anymore.

 

Still scary in the corner, though. And IMO a Potemkin that knows how to use YRC (to be able to connect Buster) is even scarier.

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Honestly, Pot feels just ok, unless you're fighting Ramlethal (almost as stupid as ct-tager vs nu), Millia or a decent I-no. 

 

He is not as bad as me and some other people used to think.

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6K easy to block... wat

I block it everytime in 2-3f matches...  Though any more than that I will see it and block, but still get nailed cause of the delay >_>  The moon shit though.. I still have to guess.  I just kind of instinctively block high if I notice just a small pause or if millia is doing a close standing S.

 

Hmm but after doing that website test.. i can't block it.  I dont get it honestly.  I play against a Millia quite a bit in 2-3 and I litterally block it everytime.  Maybe I'm just reading it and predicting on instinct since I'm familiar with his style i guess.

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Well it's a lot slower now. Reacting to it in AC was lol

It's literally 1 frame slower. Accent Core had 18 frames startup and hit crouchers on frame 20.

Xrd is 19 frames startup and hits crouchers on frame 21.

Even if they block it, you're still +3 on block. Just blockstring into it again.

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Sounds like burningvigor is just fuzzy blocking. If you can block it consistently on Millia blocker and score 19F or below (you have 1 less frame in Xrd since it's 1F faster but the game has 2F more input delay than AC which the blocker is based on) then I'll believe you can do so in Xrd.

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I block it everytime in 2-3f matches...  Though any more than that I will see it and block, but still get nailed cause of the delay >_>  The moon shit though.. I still have to guess.  I just kind of instinctively block high if I notice just a small pause or if millia is doing a close standing S.

 

Hmm but after doing that website test.. i can't block it.  I dont get it honestly.  I play against a Millia quite a bit in 2-3 and I litterally block it everytime.  Maybe I'm just reading it and predicting on instinct since I'm familiar with his style i guess.

 

 

Maybe youre reading it. Does he do haircar, 2S a lot too in the disc oki too? if he never, rarely uses that, your mind prob got conditioned to expect high hits

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Does Millia require any work when she has someone in the corner? Seems like she can just mash whatever and hit you out of anything if you don't have a DP. I use Bedman and it just looks super braindead once you're in the corner against her... just disc > press whatever and you win pretty much.

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The game taking place in a widescreen really hurt Pot. He got things easy to approach anyone. As soon as he was in the mid of screen, you knew you were in his reach. Not anymore.

 

Still scary in the corner, though. And IMO a Potemkin that knows how to use YRC (to be able to connect Buster) is even scarier.

Actually the screen is about the same size horizontally. At the "close" zoom level, when the players are near each other, characters are much taller than AC. (Faust's Baldhead taunt goes up over the lifebars, another reaches up off the top of the screen.) Even the distant zoom feels about the same in terms of what it takes to close the gap.

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The way Elphelt is developing worries me!

She has many of these "too g

 

I believe the weakening of pot was a conscious choice. I Believe developer are afraid of making grapplers strong so casual players are not raped by them, that way they appeal to a larger audience.  It seems in fg history that anytime a "grappler" has been on level playing fields that character got the most complaints. You would think arcsys would realize however that their appeal is to a more dedicated group of players, and since grappler characters are usually limited to one a game they would try not to limit players who prefer that play style. It just seems like a pattern of grapplers in their games, as of late. In fact I could be wrong but I believe I recall a statement from one of Blazblue's battle designers that he does not like grapplers, something along the lines of they make matches not fun.

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