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Xrd Slayer Frame Data Analysis, Number Crunching, and Theory Fightin

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Notes:
-Attack levels
Attack Levels are now 0 thru 4, which seem to line up with the old 1 thru 5 attack levels of prior games. I took a couple of moves at each attack level and calculated the blockstun and they seem to line up with the old values.
 
 
So I was originally making this thread for help figuring out what the fuck is going on with the frame data for Helter Skelter. +12f on block for a move with 6f active and 13f recovery?? "That doesn't make sense!" This must be a typo, but if it was a typo then the sample combo video they have wouldn't work. And then I figured it out as I was typing up this post. In summary, Helter Skelter is a projectile. Math ahead...
 
-Helter Skelter
Active = 6f
Recovery = 13f
Level 3 Blockstun = 16f
Listed Block Advantage = +12
Calculated Block Advantage = 13 - (6-1) - 13 = -2f
Level 3 Crouching Hitstun = 18f
Calculated Hit Advantage = 18f - (6-1) - 13 = 0
 
-2f on block and +/-0 on it. But sample combo video shows Helter Skelter comboing to j.H. Not a typo, something else is happening.
 
If Helter Skelter is a projectile...
Level 3 Hitstop = 14f
New BlockAdv = -2 + 14 = 12f
New HitAdv = 0 + 14 = 14f
 
As a projectile, +12f on block matches the frame data. +14f on hit matches the video. Mystery solved
 
 
 
 
Now the fun stuff..
LIINKS and COMBOOS
 
Most of the stuff is pretty plain. They've refocused alot of Slayer's nauces back to how you make your approaches and bait out counter hits.
 
f.S links to 5K
2K links to c.S, if it doesn't already gatling.
The only really interesting meaty is It's Late. You get a 5K, and then some funny stuff if CH.
 
CH 5K links to 5K
Either Mappa punch on CH nets you a P Mappa Punch
CH Under Pressure links to c.S
 
Back to It's Late. On CH you get a Mappa Punch. On a perfect meaty CH you're at +20. That's enough to just straight up Pile Bunker. I suppose the optimal followup would be to 6H>PDandy>PileBunker. But you could be too close to do 6H without getting a throw. So a Slayer doing meaty It's Late setups on you, you better not screw up your DP.
 
I'm having trouble reading 4gamer's gatling chart, so I'm not sure if there's any interesting situational gatlin combos. Does 6H still gatling to 5D? If so, that should combo on CH 6HS.
Like, am I reading this right? 6K gatlings to Dust and Sweep?
 
 
Helter Skelter being a projectile has some hilarious implications. Sadly, follow ups are gated by recovering in the air.
+18 on a perfect meaty. Anyone have RC frame data? I feel there's an Undertow setup in here.

 

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lol ch under pressure staggers and ch it's late ground bounces

i am pretty sure the gatling chart is saying all normals not named 2H/6P/6K/6H gatling into 5D/2D. for some reason 2S gatlings into 6P though. neato

it is possible to RC helter skelter and stay grounded although it looks like a legit 1 frame window (evidence: some hase arc revo qual video), in which case undertow should be guaranteed because of the projectile hitstop

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Oh, they stagger and ground bounce? I didn't know that, thanks. edited my post

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Have any players talked about how many invuln frames you can get from BDCs in this version?

How do the inv. frames carry over to whatever special move your canceling the backdash to anyways? The 4gamer site states that Slayers backdash inv. frames are 1-19, which I think is the same in +R

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The amount of invincibility on his backdash has been consistent through each version, but they limited the amount of invincibility you got from a backdash cancel in +R, and i'm not sure it was consistent from Reload to AC. I would assume it's a separate value devs manipulate based on how they feel he should be balanced.

Anyway, if it's single digits like it was in +R, it's almost not worth the trouble outside of the command grab since after the time it takes you to input Mappa or the Dandy Step follow up the invuln is already over.

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BDC'll always be worth the trouble, just because you can cancel you invulnerable backdash into specials. That alone is cool. Moves get some invuls as well? Grand!
 

Like 44 late BDC into dandy step is good footsie tool (and you can vary the distance 44 travels, before you go into dandy step), bite can still be made invulnerable on start-up (from vids at least), tight BDC mappa still counters some things, late BDC mappa is good for whiff punishing and footsies.

 

Forward Dash Cancelling is also useful, and might get even more so, with longer forward dash variant. 

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Command grab being 63214 is awesome from my perspective because it means I'm going to have tons of fun trying to do it out of FDCs. I prefer that to the motion being reversed for BDCs-grabs being easier, as I'd rather try to use the grab offensively. 

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I've never mained Slayer and I've never studied his frame data till now. But when I do find myself playing him, I'm fond of his c.S. c.S is negative on block, but there's a lot of mixup packed in to potential followup cancels. For now, let's keep it basic: just c.S-f.S.

c.S is a lvl2 move and inflicts 13f of blockstun.

13f is f.S startup = c.S-f.S is a solid block string.

Any possible counters?

Instant block c.S-f.S?

Instant block c.S inflicts 10f blockstun.

IBing c.S leaves 2f window to retailate.

Options for retaliation?

Backdash and invulnerable reversals. (No normal is faster than 3f.)

Any counters to IB,BDing c.S-f.S?

c.s also gatlings to 6H.

6H = 13f startup, 5f active.

If opponent backdashes in anticipation of the f.S, a backdash would need to be 6f or faster to recover before the 6H, or have 10f or more invul frames to pass 6H's active frames.

No backdash is faster than 6f. Only Potemkin, Bedman, and Slayer have enough invul frames on their backdash. (But if Pote or Bedman guess incorrectly and backdash your f.S, you would recover in time to punish their backdash.)

Any possible counters to c.S-6H?

3f window between c.S and 6H

7f if c.S is IBed

Counter counter? Default back to c.S-f.S

c.S-f.S is beat by IB+backdash

IB+backdash is beat by c.S-6H

c.S-6H is beat by IB+poke

IB+poke is beat by c.S-f.S

 

 

IBing c.S produces a 2f gap before the f.S. That is not enough room to poke out, leaving backdash (or invulnerable reversals) as your remaining option. If you expect your opponent to backdash in anticipation of the gatling to f.S, gatling to 6H instead. In that situation, 6H will beat the backdash. (Unless it's Potemkin, Bedman, or Slayer.) If your opponent doesn't use IB, then all this will go right over their head. But then, the c.S-f.S gatling becomes a scouting tool.

 

Scouting is important for weak mixup characters like Johnny and Slayer. Their mixups carry high risk and can not be used often. Proper scouting is important to form an accurate view of your opponent and correctly measure out your offense. If your opponent IBs your c.S, then backdashes your f.S and punishes, it's pretty safe to assume he's seasoned. Does he just sit there in down-back and takes it all, leaving him open for another round of pressure? He might be a newb. Or, he might be feeding you false information. Or he may be scouting you out! Testing your patients. Waiting to see if you pull anything new out of your bag, and getting you to reveal information to him!

 

We're only talking about two block strings and already the yomi-cakes are stacking high! f.S is advantage on block or instant block. Personally, I see no reason to stop a good thing. I'd play out c.S-f.S for as long as my opponent lets me. But maybe your not me, your opponent isn't IBing, and you don't want to be a broken record. This is what I really like about c.S. A large majority of the cast's fastest poke is 5f startup, but c.S on normal block is -4f. Just shy of being punishable, but so tempting for an opponent to take advantage of the situation by poking anyways. So what do you do with the 1-frame you have to yourself? You can block, but if you can block, then you can backdash. And if you can backdash, then you can backdash cancel...

 

We could go on forever. And we haven't even touched any of the other basic gatling chains off of c.S!

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i'm pretty sure slayer has AC levels of BDC invul (6f). at least enough to cover DOT before the flash. still very much essential to this character as mentioned above

c.S-f.S is very much throwable if you IB. and now BSable too!

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There was this combo that I really liked. Basically it was a zero tension way to deal more or less 50% damage to a grounded opponent, ANYWHERE on the screen. It was pretty boss in Slash since Slayer's air dash was very short and fast and scary in that game. 

iad.S-K, 214K (should hit twice), land, 5K, jump cancel, air combo. 

The change to footlose in Xrd makes me happy and sad at the same time. It now deals more damage but also has more landing recovery frames. I don't know if we can still do that iad combo; probably needs to burn tension for RC now. 

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so about 2 hit dandy , just for anyone to know  i tried to analyse frame per frame the 2 hit situation and saw that the tail has a hitbox beside the front and the tail has to hit "wait for it" the frame before the front hits to get the knockdown 
i will send images later maybe this could help settings setups and combos to get this consistently

post-36123-0-85546300-1421913177_thumb.p

post-36123-0-53653800-1421913215_thumb.p

post-36123-0-42410300-1421913315_thumb.p

edit 1:tail does 120d on sol against front 100d

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For K Mappa, P Mappa, on block, on hit, on crouch hit, if two Slayer's reversal 2K afterward, who wins?

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First # is worst case static difference / Second # is best case, perfect meaty.

PMappa on block = -1 / 1

KMappa on block = -2 / 4

PMappa on hit = 0 / 2

KMappa on hit = -1 / 5

Add +1 to on hit values, for crouching.

2K Startup = 6f, you can figure out the rest

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Heyo don't know if anyone noticed, figure I would say something. 2p gatlings into 2D. It is kinda... good to have reliable KD after 2p again.

 

Doesn't work max range, i.e hitting with the finger tips :(. Still good though.

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The gatling was always there, but 2D hitbox was too small in 1.0 for the combo. In 1.1 it's probably character specific still.

SSSS 5K 2D works on standing Leo so his hurtbox might be wide enough

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Some BDC frame data questions for the board, with data from the wiki:

 

Slayer's Backdash is 28 frames, with invincibility on frames 1-20

Does anyone know how many invinicibility frames slayer gets from BDCing? The wiki says (speculated) 6 frames, but I was hoping someone had a more definitive answer.
 

How much of Slayer's 28-frame backdash permits a jump cancel? Can you jump on frame 27?

Can you carry invincibility out of the invincibility frames with a BDC? eg. If you jump on frame 19, do you still get 6 frames of invincibility, or only one?

Inquiring fangs want to know!

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It's 6 frames because Bite startup is 7F and perfect BDC Bite beats meaties like Ky 6H. Throws beat strikes if they occur on the same frame, which is why only 6 BDC frames are needed for it to work.

If your Bite isn't frame perfect, you get hit, so invincibility frames probably only transfer within the first 7 frames; BDC performed on the 3rd frame of backdash only transfers 5 frames of invincibility, on the 4th frames it transfers 4 frames of invincibility, etc.

You can cancel on any frame between 2-28F, so the fastest BDC effectively adds 1 frame of startup to your BDC move.

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Saw "Theory Fighting" in the title and thought this was a right place to post. I only dabble in Slayer, but I have an inquiry for you all.

I was in the lab with a friend and we found a few things that (D.Step>HS>RC) might be useful for. It seemed, at least while we were messing with it, that it opens up a lot of options if you have the meter for it. The main 3 things we played with were

-YRC'ing the HS early for throws & misc. pressure
-"FRC'ing" the landing to stay on the ground and use the block/hitstun from the quake to confirm into a combo or continue block pressure with undertow, overheads, throws, etc
-and RRC'ing the HS right after he leaves the ground for pretty much the same use as the second one.

We found the first and second might be the most useful, especially considering that not only does HS regularly cross up, but the second one lets you double Pilebunker into damage should you confirm a counter hit off of it in the corner or just go into Crosswise on regular hit.

I imagine someone might've found this already, but in the off chance that nobody has does this seem like something worth the time looking into as a viable strat?

Sorry for the novel. :x

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I'll make a quick video detailing what I mean if my description here doesn't convey what I mean very well if you'd like.

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