[CT+CS1] Noel Match Videos & Discussion

[Johnny]

As for you, the first step is to work on not dropping combos and to make the most of your hits. You should be hit confirming your counter hits into 3C or 5D 6C. If you want to get better, the only way is to just play better people. You'll start losing your bad habits once you get punished for them every time.

It's currently kinda hard to find good people in the Netherlands.:razz:

It doesn't really help that the gg/bb community in the Netherlands is very small.

Two people that I know of, one doesn't want to play online and trying to play the other crashes my game.

Most of the time I’m stuck with random people.

Barrier Cancel your dashes if your opponent does something while you are running at him. You cannot block while running, you can only barrier-block when you are running. A lot of the times where you "lost momentum", you could have just barrier-blocked the reversal attempt. Good times to barrier-cancel your dash are... in reaction to Jin's air 236D, his (really slow) 623C if you see it comming, and especially: distortions. You got the entire super-freeze to just hold back + barrier and hope the barrier comes up in time.

I didn’t know that. I ‘ll have to pay more attention to it.

Could lag screw me over in this situation? I’ve had times where I’m sure I barrier canceled but still got hit.

Learn Noel's Oki game. A well timed 6B on the wakeup can turn a knock-down into another 6B -> 6C -> 2C -> 3C -> Chain Revolver -> knockdown, giving you another chance to 6B on his wakeup. Watch out of course for 623C/D or Distortions... but at very least you should do some wakeup-pressure occasionally to force your opponent into the defensive. Don't let him wakeup for free.

I actually stopped doing this because I always seemed to get dp’d/cat chaired out of it, I was probably just being predictable.

And Oh god. Please don't EVER do that 5D -> 6A -> 5A crap from the DVD. Its the worst ****ing combo I've ever seen in my life. It is terrible on block, and terrible if it hits. You really should _never_ do that.

5D -> 6A -> 5A -> 6A -> 5A -> 236D for what? 1800 damage or something?

Instead, do 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> j.B -> j.C -> j.236C for ~3.9k damage. Easily more than double your damage output from a 5D.

Against Jin (and only Jin), you can do 5D -> 5C -> 6C -> 5C -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> j.C -> j.236C for 4.5k+ damage (tiger knee makes it easier).

I know that that combo is rubbish, afterwards I even had a “Why the hell did I do that?”-moment. Due to frustration I probably had a “Hurrrr, I can do combo’s too!”-moment.

Work on your options from 5C and 2C. I think I only saw you do 2C -> (stop) and 2C -> 3C.. Every 5C you did was followed by 2C. Mix it up a bit. 2C is a low. 2D is an overhead that combos into 2D -> 6A -> 28D -> 6C BC loop -> 5D -> 6B -> etc. etc. From 5C or 2C, force your opponent to react to your 2D / 2C / 3C, or to start throwing out dragon-punches at you. In addition, 2C leaves you with +1 frame advantage, giving you a minor advantage if you want to continue your pressure. (2C -> 66 -> 5A -> more pressure)

Also, for mixup, don't forget that 6B gatlings into 2D as well. A double-overhead is always fun when it hits :-) Be sure to know what to do when 2D is blocked however, you're at a sizable disadvantage if they manage to block 2D.

Noel's mixup is good. Be a bit more random, do more than just 5C -> 2C... remember your options from 5C -> 2D, or 5C -> jump cancel. Learn and work with all of them.

It’s sad that I probably would have never thought of these options.

In your Noel vs Ragna, you did a 2C -> 236236D distortion. Thats decent, but know that the 2C -> Rapid Cancel -> 66A -> 6C -> 5D -> (BnB Chain Revolver) does more damage.

Don't 6C -> 2C your opponents when they whiff an Inferno Divider. Go for 6A -> 6C -> tons of damage. 2C is a combo dead-end. Decent for pressure, safe on block, but if you know you are going to hit them, its best to do something else.

Once again, i probably would have never thought of these options.

I do have trouble incorporating RCs into my game, most of the time the opponent can tech out of a combo halfway through, mostly during one of the 6B’s from the BnB chain revolver.

Are they really able to tech out of these legitamely or is it just bad placement/timing on my end?

This is a lot to take in, atleast now I know what to focus on.

Time to start incorporating these into my game.

THANKS GUYS!

[dragontamer]

I don't like 5C in block strings. Too much commitment. I like to keep my block strings at a casual relationship.

Options from 5C on block:

Jump Cancel (which leads to j.D crossup, rising j.C or j.B on some opponents, falling j.C which leads to j.D cancel -> stuff)

2D (Overhead) (actually, 5C gatlings to all of the drives, but 2D is probably the one with the most abuse)

2C (No holes during 5C -> 2C gatling, +1 frame advantage, its own mixup of 3C and 2D as well).

Super Cancels (specifically, 214A)

So we have a jump cancel, a high, a low with +Frames, and an untechable grab that can gatling from 5C on block. How is that too much commitment, especially against the half of the cast who don't have an attack with invincibility on frame 1? (IE: the half of the cast who can't punish the 5B -> 5C hole?)

I understand 5C commitment issues vs Jin, Ragna, Hakumen, Tager, and Litchi (with staff)... but that is only 4 or 5 of the characters.

I didn’t know that. I ‘ll have to pay more attention to it.

Could lag screw me over in this situation? I’ve had times where I’m sure I barrier canceled but still got hit.

Yeah, lag can screw you over, but also a late / delayed reaction time :-p.

I actually stopped doing this because I always seemed to get dp’d/cat chaired out of it, I was probably just being predictable.

You are doing it wrong. VS Rachel, a properly timed 6B can only be blocked. The point is to have the 6B on them while they are waking up. Catchair takes ~4 frames before guard point kicks in, and 6B is somewhat meaty. So you can't actually get Cat Chaired vs a properly done wakeup 6B.

Once again, i probably would have never thought of these options.

I do have trouble incorporating RCs into my game, most of the time the opponent can tech out of a combo halfway through, mostly during one of the 6B’s from the BnB chain revolver.

Are they really able to tech out of these legitamely or is it just bad placement/timing on my end?

Usually, its bad timing. (Drive) 6B -> 5C should generally be done as fast as possible, and (Drive) 5C -> 6B requires a bit of timing / practice before you can get it down perfectly. Mash it out in training mode vs Carl and Arakune until you're 100% perfect with it.

[Kronikhall]

Usually, its bad timing. (Drive) 6B -> 5C should generally be done as fast as possible, and (Drive) 5C -> 6B requires a bit of timing / practice before you can get it down perfectly. Mash it out in training mode vs Carl and Arakune until you're 100% perfect with it.

I thought you had to shorten your BnB for Carl (ie: 5D->6B->5C->236D) because he's pushed too far away.

[dragontamer]

Maybe thats why I don't get it 100% :-p I could have sworn that I got it once or twice vs him the other day... I'll go check tonight.

[Kronikhall]

Maybe thats why I don't get it 100% :-p

I could have sworn that I got it once or twice vs him the other day... I'll go check tonight.

If it does work, that'd be awesome. I hate having to mess with my combos to get damage in on Carl .

[Senovit]

I just air combo Carl now. Doesn't do as much damage of course, but it sure beats having him tech out and avoiding an ender altogether.

[archling]

Options from 5C on block:

Jump Cancel (which leads to j.D crossup, rising j.C or j.B on some opponents, falling j.C which leads to j.D cancel -> stuff)

2D (Overhead) (actually, 5C gatlings to all of the drives, but 2D is probably the one with the most abuse)

2C (No holes during 5C -> 2C gatling, +1 frame advantage, its own mixup of 3C and 2D as well).

Super Cancels (specifically, 214A)

So we have a jump cancel, a high, a low with +Frames, and an untechable grab that can gatling from 5C on block. How is that too much commitment, especially against the half of the cast who don't have an attack with invincibility on frame 1? (IE: the half of the cast who can't punish the 5B -> 5C hole?)

I understand 5C commitment issues vs Jin, Ragna, Hakumen, Tager, and Litchi (with staff)... but that is only 4 or 5 of the characters.

The options you've listed, save for 2C, are all quite risky and really isn't hard to avoid. Especially when your opponent follows the most basic rule of fighting Noel, which is don't block low when you don't need to. So, what do you do when your opponent blocks the 2D (which is straightforward to do), or anti-airs the 214A (or ducks it since that's easy too), and throws you out of the sky when you jump?

It's misleading the way you put it, showing how she can do a whole bunch. But are all these options really worth the risks involved?

[dragontamer]

The options you've listed, save for 2C, are all quite risky and really isn't hard to avoid. Especially when your opponent follows the most basic rule of fighting Noel, which is don't block low when you don't need to. So, what do you do when your opponent blocks the 2D (which is straightforward to do), or anti-airs the 214A (or ducks it since that's easy too), and throws you out of the sky when you jump?

It's misleading the way you put it, showing how she can do a whole bunch. But are all these options really worth the risks involved?

Blocking 2D is straightforward of course, I agree. I only do it when my opponent starts blocking the 2C. A Blocked 2D isn't an instant lose however, and even a simple "switch up" between (Drive) 5B and 28D will leave you with one last hope before your opponent punishes you (28D will hit them as a frame trap if they try to punish you early, which of course punishes them pretty hard into a 6C combo in the corner / rapid cancel, and 5B (into optional -> 236D) will safely push them away on block). Basically, it is indeed a disadvantage: but it isn't a "loss" just yet.

214A is risky of course. I can agree with that. Its one of your high damage options however, and especially works on a Hakumen who is expecting a 2D. Its an option, lets leave it at that.

Throwing you out of the sky does not match my experience. In theory-fighting... your jump-cancel leaves you with +12 frames once you factor in Noel's 4-frame jumping time. (16 frames of blockstun from 5C, jump cancel into a jump == +12 frames left). If your opponent is jumping up and air-grabbing you when you have a +12 advantage, you have bigger issues. Air Grabs in this game are not 0 frame either. I can imagine some sort of anti-air screwing things up (Rachel's cat-uppercut is absurd, or Hakumen's 6A) sure, I'll give ya that, some sort of anti-air option (Tager 623C, or whatever)...

But not air-throws. That just doesn't happen vs me after a 5C jump cancel at least. And there are ways around the anti-air options... generally involving a simple double-jump, or a rising j.C/j.B/j.A.

[Kronikhall]

I hardly ever 2D, even as an overhead. I have a friend who abuses that move though. He uses 2D and if hit confirmed goes into 5A->6A->5A->236D. If I block it he goes with the 214D for a safe escape. But seeing as I kept getting tripped up by 2D I started practicing against it and figured out that you can easily poke it after the block with a 5B CH, then go into 3C->22C->6C->BnB.

[dragontamer]

As I noted in my post... if you try to counter-hit it with 5B, he can counter-hit YOU with 28D into 6C BC loop -> 5D -> 6B -> 5C -> etc. etc. Or, if he's feeling really lucky (lol), 2D -> 5D will go through the 5B and counter-hit you into 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> air combo for 3.9k damage. Yes, 2D is unsafe. However, as unsafe as it is, you should play 2D as well as you can, and that involves the 28D / 5B mixup. 2D- > 5B -> 236D escapes if the opponent keeps blocking, 2D -> 28D counter-hits those who try to mash you out. And when played like this, I think it greatly lowers the risk of using 2D.

[Kronikhall]

As I noted in my post... if you try to counter-hit it with 5B, he can counter-hit YOU with 28D into 6C BC loop -> 5D -> 6B -> 5C -> etc. etc. Or, if he's feeling really lucky (lol), 2D -> 5D will go through the 5B and counter-hit you into 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> air combo for 3.9k damage.

Yes, 2D is unsafe. However, as unsafe as it is, you should play 2D as well as you can, and that involves the 28D / 5B mixup. 2D- > 5B -> 236D escapes if the opponent keeps blocking, 2D -> 28D counter-hits those who try to mash you out. And when played like this, I think it greatly lowers the risk of using 2D.

Darn, didn't know it was punishable with Spring Raid. On the other hand, I don't feel like blocking 2D->5A->6A->5A->6A->236D, so (sorry if the solution was posted before) how do I deal with this?

[dragontamer]

The (Drive) 5A -> 6A -> 5A string is terrible, and quite possibly the worst piece of crap you can possibly do as Noel. Wait for the 6A, then grab. Problem solved. Or, if you wanna be flashy about it, 5D during your opponent's 6A. 5D -> (Counterhit!!) -> 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> air combo == ~3.9k damage. Another simple solution is to just 6A them after their (drive) 6A. Drive is unsafe, especially vs Noel. Quickly convert 2D into -> 5B -> 236D (vs some opponents) to safely get out of drive. The 5B is "unsafe", you need to rely on the 2D -> 28D "trap" to discourage your opponent from trying to counter-hit you after the 2D. But to keep going into Drive A spam is just... stupid. Get out quickly.

[archling]

Oh yea, those options you've listed is completely possible with 5A too. So I don't see the advantage of gattling to 5C when sticking with 5A block strings is far safer (no gaps, tons of frame advantage, etc).

[Kronikhall]

The (Drive) 5A -> 6A -> 5A string is terrible, and quite possibly the worst piece of crap you can possibly do as Noel.

Wait for the 6A, then grab. Problem solved. Or, if you wanna be flashy about it, 5D during your opponent's 6A. 5D -> (Counterhit!!) -> 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> air combo == ~3.9k damage. Another simple solution is to just 6A them after their (drive) 6A.

Drive is unsafe, especially vs Noel. Quickly convert 2D into -> 5B -> 236D (vs some opponents) to safely get out of drive. The 5B is "unsafe", you need to rely on the 2D -> 28D "trap" to discourage your opponent from trying to counter-hit you after the 2D.

But to keep going into Drive A spam is just... stupid. Get out quickly.

Awesome, I'll test it out today. By the way, any luck with the Carl experiment?

[dragontamer]

Oh yea, those options you've listed is completely possible with 5A too. So I don't see the advantage of gattling to 5C when sticking with 5A block strings is far safer (no gaps, tons of frame advantage, etc).

First: 5A is a level 1 attack. You are jump-canceling with only +5 frames. Jump cancel from 5C is safer with +12 frames from the jump cancel. Those 7 frames are enough for someone to jump and air-grab you... it is harder to air grab vs a jump-canceled 5C. In addition, 5C offers pressure to tall characters like Tager (and IIRC, Jin). 5C -> Jump Cancel -> j.B / j.C can cover your rise, making your airborne time safer. 5A -> Jump Cancel -> j.C has a hole.

Second: No holes means that your opponent can let go of his controller and let the game auto-block the rest of the string. Whether you like it or not, you have to eventually have a hole, with exception of converting 5A into a low (say, 2B). Without a hole, your opponent can let go of the controller and he'll block the rest of the string. You're just giving him time to think.

Third: if you 2B your opponent, and it is blocked, what do you do? The most logical response from a blocked 5A -> 2B is to just continue to 5B -> 5C -> mixup. Basically, 5C is your next "mixup junction" after attempting a "no-hole" low from 5A. On both hit and block, this is safe (vs opponents without a DP / Counter) and easy. (Doesn't work vs Rachel, but whatever)

Any good 5A game should include 2B, so the progression into 5C is only natural. (unless you like to leave your gatling chains on a frame disadvantage after 5B ?? WTF vs Bang or Nu who can't even punish your 5B -> 5C hole.)

Fourth: It is not always logical to pressure the opponent with 5A. Against Tager, I get more success by zoning him with 5B (and hit-confirming into 5C -> jump cancel j.C combo) than I do with 5A (which I have to cross both 360A and 360B range, and Tager's own 5A spam is pretty good). Zoning with 5B naturally leads to 5C pressure.

There are plenty of reasons to use 5C. And when we get matchup specific, half the cast can't punish you for 5B -> 5C anyway (and those who can punish you... can punish your staggered 5A just as easily. Staggered 5A has a 2-frame hole. You can't gatling during the recovery of your attack.)

Don't get me wrong, 5A pressure is good, really really good. But really, you aren't going to 5A them all day. Eventually, you'll have to dash forward (which opens you up), stagger a bit (opens up holes just as large as 5B->5C), or convert your blocked 5A into a mixup (which naturally leads to 5C). You can jump cancel if you want, but waiting for 5C to jump cancel is much safer.

Oh yeah, and Disjointed Hitbox and Range. Try doing that with 5A.

EDIT: And how could I forget? ~4k counter-hit combos. 5C -> (COUNTER!!) -> 5D -> 6C -> lolz pwned.

[archling]

Just because you mix up 2B into your 5A strings doesn't mean you have to go through with 5B 5C. Ending with 2B and waiting is more unpredictable and far safer (-2 on block, but fastest attack is 5F startup) than the options listed off of 5C. The main question is why put yourself in a position where you have to make a choice that will put you in a risky position? Especially since any of the choices that will bring a strong return are quite straightforward to stop. I'm really not a fan of riding the gattling chart just because you can. Just because the gattling chart naturally leads to 5C doesn't mean you should. You can be a whole lot more unpredictable and dangerous without doing a set string THEN making a choice. One last point is that it's actually better to make your opponent think. The only way you're getting damage is to make your opponent mess up. The more your opponent has to think means there's more of a chance he'll think wrongly and mess up.

[dragontamer]

I'm sorry that I don't get the connection... But what does your last post have to do with "5C has too much commitment" ?? (which is more or less the point of this little debate... as far as I know...) I mean, sure, if you don't wanna follow gattlings, go on ahead. I think thats a fine idea too, going from 2B -> 5A again seems like a decent "surprise" strategy to reset 5A pressure, but I don't see what it has to do with this conversation.

[archling]

My point is more or less 5C sucks.

[dragontamer]

I know what you are trying to argue. What I'm saying is, I don't see the connection between your argument (ie: this post) and your point (ie: 5C sucks).

You say a lot of things about 2B, gatling charts, and a few generic things about "forcing your opponent to think", but you never relate it back to 5C.

[Senovit]

Wut. You were the one who said 2B leads naturally into 5C according to the gatling chart, and any 5AAA etc. game should include the use of 2B. Of course he would talk about it in a response post. Herp derp, use whatever you want, it's your choice. If you like 5C then use it, if you don't like it then don't. Pick where you want your hole to be.

[dragontamer]

Meh, I am willing to drop the debate. No hard feelings to Archling, I just have a harsh debate style that is all. That said, I feel the need to defend myself. Don't worry about counter-arguing about this, I'm just more or less explaining the reasoning behind my post.

Wut. You were the one who said 2B leads naturally into 5C according to the gatling chart, and any 5AAA etc. game should include the use of 2B. Of course he would talk about it in a response post.

My argument: 2B leads to 5C naturally.

His Argument: You can stop at 2B.

What his argument should be: 2B does not lead to 5C naturally.

Believe it or not, these two arguments (what he is currently arguing, and what he should be arguing) are different.

IE: His initial thesis should be stronger than what he made if he wants to prove me wrong. I don't disagree with his current claim: stopping your gatling chains midway can be a useful surprise, in fact, 5A -> pause / dash -> 5A is that precisely. To make the argument I feel is necessary against me, he has to demonstrate that 2B's options are stronger than 5C's options, and not merely state that you can stop at 2B.

More or less, the claim he makes is almost unrelated to the subject matter at hand.

Archling: I am satisfied with leaving this debate as "Agree to Disagree" by the way. Theory Fighting is not a demonstration of skill anyway. I do have fun discussing theoretical paths in execution, kinda a "My kung-fu is better than your kung-fu", even if they are somewhat irrelevant to battle. (IE: If we really wanted to get better, I'm sure we both have something to practice that we both agree on, like better 5A spam ) So do not feel pressured by my posts to respond if you don't want to.

[dogg201]

Just recently made an account here, But I've been around scanning this site for information plenty of times. Here are just two videos of me using noel playing a Rachel and in another video a Tager. Any words to help me improve would be greatly appreciated. Also, I know many probably wont like the music, but its what I was listening to when I won the matches so I kept them in there. Thanks in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9trNtgvLHog&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDYTT9FZWvU&feature=channel

[Kronikhall]

Maybe thats why I don't get it 100% :-p

I could have sworn that I got it once or twice vs him the other day... I'll go check tonight.

Okay, so it turns out the BnB does work on Carl. It's just an issue of spacing and timing. You end up having to delay the [D]6B a bit longer than with other characters.

On another issue, damn Bang and his hitbox.

[mooyang90]

Just recently made an account here, But I've been around scanning this site for information plenty of times. Here are just two videos of me using noel playing a Rachel and in another video a Tager. Any words to help me improve would be greatly appreciated. Also, I know many probably wont like the music, but its what I was listening to when I won the matches so I kept them in there. Thanks in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9trNtgvLHog&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDYTT9FZWvU&feature=channel

Watch the dvd and stop doing unsafe slides.

[Neriam]

Just recently made an account here, But I've been around scanning this site for information plenty of times. Here are just two videos of me using noel playing a Rachel and in another video a Tager. Any words to help me improve would be greatly appreciated. Also, I know many probably wont like the music, but its what I was listening to when I won the matches so I kept them in there. Thanks in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9trNtgvLHog&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDYTT9FZWvU&feature=channel

Blocked 3C vs Tager equals Real Soviet Damage for Noel. The Tager in the vid doesn't punish you as he should.

At the end of the last round, instead of doing 2B > 6C > DD, you should have done the DD directly after the throw, making the combo unburstable (even if the Tager hasn't bursted )