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DaiAndOh

[Xrd] Venom Q&A Thread

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8 hours ago, DaiAndOh said:

No, but i didn't put much time into it frankly...might just stick with simple Dark Angel there in those situations...

Gotcha.

I was hoping you'd have done more work on it because I'm having trouble keeping the 1-ball BRO active long enough for me to set up all the balls that 310 does... Mine goes away after 2.

That said, you've seen how much meter drain FD'ing Dark Angel does in Rev? You might be better of sticking with that. It's like 70+%

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38 minutes ago, TittyFOFO said:

That's burst Dark Angel. Meter drain is cool, but I think I'd rather keep my burst in most cases.

Gotcha.

You can tell I'm new to Guilty? I don't even know what I'm looking at sometimes.

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23 hours ago, TittyFOFO said:

That's burst Dark Angel. Meter drain is cool, but I think I'd rather keep my burst in most cases.

Agreed, the main time I'd use it other than last round guaranteed chip is if they're in a position to block/get hit by it as a reversal (under 50 meter, committed to something they can't YRC pretty much, since if the startup data is the same as regular, you can PRC on reaction to the flash and get away).

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Is Venom a good character for beginners? I'm not new to the GG series but I am new to playing the game competitively and I've always liked this character. I do play blazblue and I'm much better at it then GG; there I play mostly Amane But guilty gear is alot different. I'm still experimenting with others like I-No and even Johnny, Jack-O, and Raven have caught my eye but I only want to focus on one character. 

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1 hour ago, NovaChrysalia said:

Is Venom a good character for beginners? I'm not new to the GG series but I am new to playing the game competitively and I've always liked this character. I do play blazblue and I'm much better at it then GG; there I play mostly Amane But guilty gear is alot different. I'm still experimenting with others like I-No and even Johnny, Jack-O, and Raven have caught my eye but I only want to focus on one character. 

About 16 months ago, when -Sign- came out for consoles, I was about in a very similar position to yours. I played the older GGs but never as competitively as say KOF. And I was a total scrub with Venom, who I thought looked cool and had a really unique zoning fighting style. And while I have improved a little bit since then, I feel like I have a good understanding of the challenge with getting better as a Venom player, which could help you.

First of all, I feel like no matter what, if you like a character and you really want to learn them, go learn them. Don't let tier-lists or the fear of high execution put you down. You are gonna have to work on your character anyways no matter who you choose and it may as well be a character you really want to play with.

Having said that, I think Venom is not exactly the easiest character to use. For one, he's a charge character who is heavily dependent on his charge moves, probably more so than any other character in Xrd. Stinger Aim and Carcass Raid form a corner stone of his zoning and offensive pressure game. And you will need to learn how to do them confidently as you are gonna be doing them constantly. You don't wanna get a 6Hs or jump S out by mistake just because you misjudged how much charging you did. 

The bigger issue though is that his real technical stuff lies in a more I suppose "cognitive" sense, more in the pure memorization than the hand-execution sense. I think the challenge in learning Venom is not about doing Mist Finer Cancel combos, or jump installs, or micro-dashes (although he has some important micro-dash stuff). It's more about learning which of his 32 ball formations do I need to do right now. And the numerous ways you can shoot those balls in all sorts of directions at different speeds, and which balls should i shoot and which should i save for teleports. I mean sure, not every formation has a specific use (sometimes you just want to have 4 balls out so you just have more ammo) but you need to learn some for zoning and okizeme purposes. And how to be able to set them up in the most efficient way, sometimes doing so as part of your combo that will lead to a knockdown (QV certainly helps here).

In addition, Venom does lack a bit in terms of defense. He doesn't have any invincible reversal move like Volcanic Viper, not even a super move (although Burst Dark Angel in Revelator is an invincible reversal super and certainly helps him wake up safely, along with the new blitz charge attack). That's not to say he is helpless, his 6P anti-air is one of the best in the game, and on counter hit it can lead to very good damage with knockdown. And his air throw (along with his ground throw) can lead to great free damage and corner carry. And his 2H ain't bad either, and can lead to good corner carry and damage if it hits counter hit and is canceled to S-Carcass Raid. These 3 will form his main anti-air moves. And you are gonna get to use them a lot since Venom's zoning game will force your opponent to get to you thru awkward angles, usually by jumping over your projectiles, although some can slide under them (Sol/Ky/Sin), or teleport behind them (Chipp/Bedman), or just negate them (Pot/Jack-O/Ky and more).

Venom does have a few quibbles that other character's don't seem to have. For one, his Close S (which is 3 hits, ending with a launcher) only hits twice on most of the cast when they are crouching. So Venom has separate against-standing and against-crouching combos. This means that you need to confirm which state your opponent is in when you start a combo, which sometimes could happen with Close S itself. There's also the fact that his 2-hit sweep, which a great tool with a quick start up and nice properties like a low profile, has a very long whiff recovery that can easily be punished if you do it and it doesn't land or get blocked. You sometimes even need to cancel out of even if it does get blocked since the 2nd hit tends to whiff if the opponent uses faultless defense to block the first hit (or sometimes it whiffs due to spacing), and they can punish you if you don't cancel out of the animation with either a carcass raid or a stinger aim or a QV or whatever.

Again, I'm certainly not the most experienced Venom player in this forum, but I hope this post helps. And sorry if this was kinda too long of an answer.

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The tl;dr from me:

Venom is one of if not the most difficult characters to play in Guilty Gear. Execution requirements are above average and he's unforgiving for the most part when you drop a combo or setup. Situation and matchup awareness and knowledge are VERY important.

He's also not one of the stronger characters, but if you play Amane, it's clear playing your character with the playstyle you want is more important imo, so that's fine.

Venom is a very self fulfilling character, to see your work and effort come to light and get some results. It can take a while to see that, but to me, it was the best feeling I ever got from playing fighting games.

Most of what I said tends to apply at people striving to be high level, so it can somewhat depend on what you want out of Guilty Gear.

If you find yourself very intrigued and have a great desire to make Venom your main, by all means, go ahead and learn. But if you're gonna take this seriously, be prepared to be in it for the long haul. Either way, good luck!

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Super hard character to learn and get to be efficient with. But ultimately I think he's probably the most satisfying character to play. I love the fact that he can pretty much be played however you want, assuming that you have the execution to back it up. I personally go for high damage output setups that rarely use more than 2 balls, but I see a lot of other players that use tricky setups that do less damage but force more chip damage and mix-up opportunities. Very few characters in this game have the number of options that Venom does, so there's lots of room for development for all Venom players. He really let's you express your individuality, which is a very uncommon thing in this genre.

But no, he's a terrible beginner character. Above average execution requirements, mind blowing # of options with ball summons, subpar defensive options (only character in the game with no reversal move I think?), and plenty of bad match-ups IMO. As previously stated, you really have to know what you want out of GG if you wanna play the character.

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I agree with all the above.

He's hard, super fulfilling.

If you choose to devote yourself to the character, he can be workable for beginners. he's my first character, as Xrd is my first GG game.

I also prefer charge characters and characters with super technical zoning abilities. It's always been my playstyle, so it comes a little more natural for me.

But I will admit, I've put more time into Venom than I have in SF4 as a whole. He takes a lot of work. Between my two accounts, I have over 10 days of training mode logged, mostly with Venom. That's 240+ hours - and I still drop BnBs or miss setups.

He's hard.

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All those replies almost make me cry :kitty:, but yes, learning Venom is super fullfilling and his community is one of the greatest in fg, everyone is always trying to help, good luck in your journey youre not alone.

 

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Since this is a Q&A thread I have a question,

what happened to Venom's throw followup? I feel like a while back I was seeing:

throw [2] > 2HS > S-Carcass > IAD > JS > JHS > JD > 6HS (or something)

now I feel like all I see is:

throw > c.S [2 hits] > P-QV [1] > C-Stinger charged enough to get highest level ball out after bounce (or at least thats what It looks like to me I'm not good at discerning venom inputs just by watching yet). 

Thing is...QV lands, the rest (giant purple ball) gets blocked. I'm sure theres some higher level reason why this is being done over a full on combo follow up, but can anyone enlighten me here? is the pressure on block worth more than actual hits?

Also assuming what I said above is true, I tried to practice this. I'm still kindof new to venom and I tried to mimic these inputs but having trouble does anyone know what the inputs look like? Please correct my inputs if they are wrong. Thank you.

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Also separate question, I'd appreciate the discussion.

Ive seen, I think it was isamu and maybe 310, do a crossup after knockdown. I think it might have been

knockdown > k ball set > jk?

This lets him do cool things from the back like a very low altitude j66 (or j44 depending on perspective of crossup) > jX[X] > land c.S > ???

but how? I've tried this over and over and I'm not getting to the other side, nor is the k ball timing working out does anyone know what I'm doing wrong or have any suggestions? TY.

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Okay, so there are a few reasons people doing that throw setup. Venom throw combos generally do poor damage anyway, and while the lvl 3 ball setups do less damage initially you get to force the other player to burn some meter of take a lot of chip damage. You also get to negate a lot of reversal options like DPs, blitz, and most supers while still giving yourself good high/low options while they're stuck blocking. Lastly, it's pretty difficult to burst the shorter throw setup, where as doing the old BnB you'd have to make a hard read to bait and punish bursts at multiple points in the combo. So the simpler option could be the better one by far, depending on the situation.

In regards to your inputs, you have to buffer a dash before the 2HS after the throw for the long combo. The rest was correct. The short combo can be done with a 1 hit 5S(c), which might actually affect their ability to burst it maybe. I need to test it out more myself tbh.

As for K ball oki, try doing it off of a 2D knockdown with j.K for the ball strike. Keep in mind though that a lot of it depends on which character you're up against, and spacing in general. It also generally doesn't work in the corner, in case you weren't aware.

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Thank you that explanation regarding the throw, that works for me.

regarding the oki crossup, I can't get it to work with any distance either normal jump or super jump. the ONLY progress Ive made is by actually doing 66 first to get dash momentum after the k ball placement. Can anyone confirm if this 66 was the key? after that it seems that I need to work on the timing for the crossup air dash and such but I'm thinking this was my biggest issue. I'm also finding that if you dont J.K as soon as possible on the way up you dont recover fast enough for an air dash you just end up landing. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this more experienced venoms :]

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Sounds good Ive been meaning to join the various discords for the chars that I play.

And yeah definitely seems like the biggest problem is that I didnt have dash momentum. Now I just need to fix timings and input. At least for now I actually get behind the oponent and the ball is hitting from the other side.

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Hello everyone!

 

Does anyone knows how to use dash buffering with Venom? Like what Leo does here:
 


I've been trying to find a way to do dashing Stinger Aim, but so far all my attempts have failed.

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On 12/2/2016 at 6:23 PM, LuimanXrd said:

Hello everyone!

 

Does anyone knows how to use dash buffering with Venom? Like what Leo does here:
 


I've been trying to find a way to do dashing Stinger Aim, but so far all my attempts have failed.

you should be able to do it with charge [4], then 66S/H. The dash needs to be very short but I just don't see this being that beneficial to Venom in neutral since he does have full screen projectiles. And doing Stingers from farther off is better since you'll be at a safer further distance, making it hard to punish. But with S-stinger specifically, it's better to do it earlier from far off in Oki setups since that would give you a better frame advantage then doing it upclose. Plus the time you would need to dash before doing the Stinger could be used to shoot the ball earlier and let it meaty late for better frame advantage, or even make it possible to charge the stinger to a higher lvl.

 

I mean, there are ways that micro dash S-stinger could have potential in oki setups (after a corner knockdown P-QV, it's possible to do a dash S-Stinger and shoot the ball past the P ball generated by PQV, instead of having it collide with the P-ball which is what happens with a direct S-Stinger) but I don't know how to make use of this.

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2 hours ago, BadoorSNK said:

I mean, there are ways that micro dash S-stinger could have potential in oki setups (after a corner knockdown P-QV, it's possible to do a dash S-Stinger and shoot the ball past the P ball generated by PQV, instead of having it collide with the P-ball which is what happens with a direct S-Stinger) but I don't know how to make use of this.

This is the direction I'm trying to go, but I'm thinking more in midscreen tick damage, corner-carrying blockstrings leading to corner mixups, rather than in corner setups. After a standard j.D - 6H knockdown, the ones going through my head right now are:

1. S - P Formation > dashing H SA (doesn't hit P Ball, hits S Ball, which hits opponent) > 5K (hits P Ball) > Teleport (to spiked L1 ball) > j. S (hits ball) > K Ball > (Ball hits) > dash jumping S (hits K Ball) > air dash - low mixup

 

2. P - K Formation > dashing H SA (doesn't hit P Ball, hits opponent) > 5K (hits P Ball) > S Ball > (Ball hits) > forward jumping S (hits K Ball) > air dash - low mixup

 

3. (With previous P or S Ball) P - H - S Formation > dashing H SA (doesn't hit H Ball, hits P Ball, which hits opponent) > 5K (hits H Ball) > Teleport (to spiked L1 ball) > j. S (hits spiked ball) > H Ball > Ball hits) > dash jumping K (hits S and H Balls) > air dash - low mixup

Also, I think that in neutral, there are some ranges where you want to shoot your H Stinger right where you can YRC it AFTER it hits (instead of the flash happening before it does), so that you can catch people in the middle of anything. For that, dashing a little before shooting may help.

I use a Hori Fighting Commander Pro 4, and although the technique seems easy to grasp at first glance, I cannot get it to work even once, so all the things I said above are just theories for the moment. Any execution tips, videos or help in general to get this done?

 

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