[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[Dime_x]

Good stuff. I do think that 5K>c.S

Is the eventual string to hitconfirm if one can do it consistently. The less deep into your string you need to go to get a confirm, the more leeway you give yourself for further mixups into the string should it be blocked.

Good tick throw setups as well

The primary difference between 5K>c.S and 5K>2S is that the c.S is a natural combo into 5H... But, the 2S makes them respect those ankles, so if 2S natural combos into 6K (will have to check) then it is probably the better overall choice because it is +4 and hits low. I think it has less range and more pushback than c.S though, so that may be something to consider as well... Plus the jump cancel like you said. There are a few different things to consider.

[Kikuichimonji]

I wonder what the merits are of dash 5K > cS vs dash 5K > 2S

2S is +4, but it doesn't combo to rekkas or 5HS (maybe on crouching?). You can gatling to 2HS if you're in range or maybe link a 5P, but otherwise you only get 2D knockdown. 2S also has abysmal range so I wouldn't be surprised if 5K 2S whiffed at longer ranges.

[RentalBlackout]

I think 2S is useful if you know your opponent tends to mash, 2S>5H/6K is a frame trap, but if you can late gatling 5H/6K from c.S(I'm honestly not sure), then I guess you can do it from c.S too.

[Solless]

Don't know where to post videos for critiquing my leo play, so I'll just put it here.

 

http://youtu.be/WuTeqxhoRY0

 

Watch Faust at 1:12, because that caught me majorly by surprise.

[Dime_x]

A couple of cool new little neutral game tactics for leo sorry if anyone is using these already:

236S or H yrc on wiff then 5H

Basically makes leo run forward toward the opponent, then yrc stops him and slows the opponent down making leos long ranged 5H much better since it will be able to deal with slow pokes for its duration. The yrc point on 236S extends into the active frames, so its full range can be used for forward movement. When using this it is probably prudent to stop when you get into max range for 5H if you were doing this from far away.

Doing a dash and then canceling into rekka and then yrc brings leo in from full screen away. So with meter, leo has some options against speedsters like millia and chipp to try and close the gap.

Brynhildr stance from fullscreen:

The strategy is to make space and throw H fireball and then yrc it and follow it in. Fireballs wont work because leo can reflect them. The opponent will need to go in or try to make their way in. Or let leo gain momentum with the yrc. If the opponent wants to jump in, then leos P in stance is a wonderful AA. If the opponent wants to approach on the ground, leo can dash towards them and S or better yet, do stance 214 S RRC and he is effectively in, though for 2 meters. This gives leo options from most places on the screen to go offensive no matter the range as long as he is willing to spend some meter to do it. Imho these tactics though not to be used in a spammy way, even used once or twice a round can make leos neutral much better.

Another very good look for leos yrc abilities is to spend as much meter on [4]6S yrc.

Looking at the fireball by itself it looks like a kinda bad yrc. But the slowdown does everything for it:

Harder to jump over because the opponents movement is slowed, and leo can follow right behind it just like gunflame yrc.

Whereas gunflame yrc seems great in blockstrings and on wakeup, leos looks great at midrange. Just need a bit of distance away from the enemy to make sure that it doesnt RRC.

In fact, this seems so strong it almost looks like what leo was designed to do, spend all his meter on neutral 46S yrc.

Just some stuff to experiment with

[Kimchi]

@Solless from the video it almost looks like because of faust's hitbox, the bt H is whiffing on him.It happened again at 4 min. 
Testing it in training mode, bt k>s>h does not work on a standing faust. He can block after the S. Well that is weird, and also sucks. 
Although it all connects if he is crouching because that makes sense. 
 

[Dime_x]

OMG. i just theory fightered up some... Maybe awesome... Maybe not so awesome shit... The problem is it isnt leo specific. Everyone can do it. Anyways:

Whats the most important thing to do in a fighting game, in general... The thing that separates the advanced players from the exceptional ones? To me... Its simply making contact. Of course there is more to it, but in general, once you make contact, thats when you get mixups and damage. And one of the most fundamental things is not letting the opponent make contact.

So... Seems to me that doing neutral yrc or simply using yrc in not so known to be used places... Can be a very good thing at least at the intermediate level. Like something i just noticed is that yrc has SO MANY MORE applications than what it is currently being used for.

If you see your opponent jump in the air... Yrc slows them down and makes leo faster (than them)... Therefor it becomes easier to make contact with them or AA them on reaction cause you have buffed anti airs. Same with ground pokes.

SAME WITH OKI!!!!... Dont have enough advantage? Just yrc and now you have more advantage to work with.

Your opponent spamming fireballs/keepaway bs? Yrc to slow them down, increase YOUR advantage, make their anti airs harder to time if they are using normals AAs. Sol uppercut bs 50/50 on block? Yrc and now you can react what uppercut he did (maybe)

Stuck in the corner on defense? Jump xx yrc airdash out while your opponent is slowed down.

This can really really be a game changer... Maybe. Havent tried it out on spam, but there are so many theoretical applications that the slowdown from yrc can be effective to completely change the game.... Its going to be fun experimenting on what the best uses for yrc are gojng to be outside fireball yrc and stuff.

[koufdell]

OMG. i just theory fightered up some... Maybe awesome... Maybe not so awesome shit... The problem is it isnt leo specific. Everyone can do it. Anyways:

Whats the most important thing to do in a fighting game, in general... The thing that separates the advanced players from the exceptional ones? To me... Its simply making contact. Of course there is more to it, but in general, once you make contact, thats when you get mixups and damage. And one of the most fundamental things is not letting the opponent make contact.

So... Seems to me that doing neutral yrc or simply using yrc in not so known to be used places... Can be a very good thing at least at the intermediate level. Like something i just noticed is that yrc has SO MANY MORE applications than what it is currently being used for.

If you see your opponent jump in the air... Yrc slows them down and makes leo faster (than them)... Therefor it becomes easier to make contact with them or AA them on reaction cause you have buffed anti airs. Same with ground pokes.

SAME WITH OKI!!!!... Dont have enough advantage? Just yrc and now you have more advantage to work with.

Your opponent spamming fireballs/keepaway bs? Yrc to slow them down, increase YOUR advantage, make their anti airs harder to time if they are using normals AAs. Sol uppercut bs 50/50 on block? Yrc and now you can react what uppercut he did (maybe)

Stuck in the corner on defense? Jump xx yrc airdash out while your opponent is slowed down.

This can really really be a game changer... Maybe. Havent tried it out on spam, but there are so many theoretical applications that the slowdown from yrc can be effective to completely change the game.... Its going to be fun experimenting on what the best uses for yrc are gojng to be outside fireball yrc and stuff.

 

 

 

you got it pal ... you had to watch some jp players to see that (hase-slayer- is a perfect example of your statements) yrc all day ... 

[Dime_x]

I havent seen any jap players abusing this much at all the way i describe (with the exception of gunflame yrc stuff) though one of my friends has told me that some venom and i forget the other characters, use this as well.

Hase slayer huh? Ill get right up on it and watch some right now. Always on the lookout to steal any tech i can (but i admit when i steal tech, because there is no reason not to).

-edit

HOLY FUCK. first match first round, this motherdude gold bursts, gets full meter, jumps once and wiffs 3 yrcs midjump... This dude is off his nut. Uses this the exact way i was thinking. Yo hes awesome, gotta watch more, but popcorn first, this is going to be good.

[Destin]

They don't use it as much as you would think because they have already calibrated the advantage into their gameplay, and thus play more defensive expecting the tactic.  Also, if I have a fireball, the cost of using the fireball YRC versus just normal YRC is pretty low.  Might as well put that hibox on the screen at the cost of like 4 frames.

[Dime_x]

They don't use it as much as you would think because they have already calibrated the advantage into their gameplay, and thus play more defensive expecting the tactic. Also, if I have a fireball, the cost of using the fireball YRC versus just normal YRC is pretty low. Might as well put that hibox on the screen at the cost of like 4 frames.

However you want to use it is obviously up to you im just happy that after watching hase play that he actually used many of the tactics i thought yrc would be good for. i especially liked how once he got cornered he airdashed out and yrc to slow his opponent down and make them unable to AA him on his way out.

Today i used yrc to punish a dp from further out than midscreen... Normally i wouldnt have been able to punish but yrc made it easy. I also yrc a reactable dust. I normally cant yet block dusts on reaction cause i dont have the experience to see the red glow... But while they were slowed down? Pssshh easy. And i used a yrc to punish a f.S wiff on reaction as well.

But it isnt nearly as easy to use as i thought it would be. I wasted probably alot more meter than i used well, but my gameplay was overall more solid as well, because i could slow time at critical moments and screen check.

All in all though from play testing my favorite use for the yrc was to do it then make the opponent block my leos 5H that was the most abusive thing i could find and it was very very easy to implement into my game. The next yrc im looking to abuse is 46S yrc, but in my actual games i kept mistiming it and getting late yrc.

[Destin]

If you are using it to some level of success, keep it up and see where it takes you!

[UYG_Ookami]

I'm enjoying the range of his sword I can catch some one with 5 s and go to town on em with some sort of ease. What I don't get is this. Some one I was fighting yesterday beat me with an instant kill after roman canceling twice. are such things possible with leo

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Solless]

You have to be more specific but going by my limited knowledge of the game, no, that shouldn't be possible with anyone.

 

What exactly did they do and did they have a gold bar before the IK animation?

[Kikuichimonji]

If you piano 3 buttons to 4, you'll kara cancel the RRC to IK activation. This isn't actually useful because you won't get the RRC slowdown, it's just to make inputting IK activation easier without getting RRC.

[Dime_x]

Just got done playing a 60 game set against an elph player. Cliffs notes, all these things are pertaining to the matchup, not necessarily to leo in general:

1. My opponent didnt know about throwing leo out of 6H and i found the matchup hard enough to not educate him at this time.

2. Elphs 5H beats like everything leo wants to do, except leos sweep hits it for free.

3. Elphs 2S however beats leos sweep clean

4. Elph is bullyable on her wakeup after sweep or after 28HS with leos 6K.

5. Pineapple is hard to deal with for leo. If hes trying to get in against it and it makes contact with him, then it will fall with leo and be a ticking time bomb allowing elph to easily follow it in and pressure leo. Even if leo hitconfirms the elph player, it doesnt matter because the bomb will explode and knock leo out of his combo and the elph player can easily confirm into an air combo.

6. Double jumping over AA pineapple is t the greatest look because leo will fall into elphs c.S AA

7. Staying on the ground underneath the AA pineapple isnt a good look because elph can follow it in and beat just about any leo retaliation such as poking or jumping with her 5H

8. Cornered shotgun pressure and dash up command grab is hard to deal with, so dont get cornered.

9. Try to pester elph with S fireball at near its max range range in neutral. That fireball is a great poke. After doing an S fireball that makes contact, throw another one or throw an H one.

10. Use 4K to advance from 3/4 screen range while retaining charge for neutral S fireball pokes.

11. Backturned stance against elph at neutral is terrible. You cant reflect her projectile so theres no reason to be in backturned when far away.

Leo seems to have a type of "build" so to speak:

At 1 meter he can threaten things like 5H>6H yrc into throw/6K mixup, or he can yrc his 46S at neutral as a way to get in or to simply gain some space if he was near the corner. Speaking of the corner, if the opponent is in the habit of giving leo space to bait the dp, leo can yrc his S fireball to gain control of the situation and go on offense.

At 2 meters leo can poke into 236H crossup and rc into full combo.

At 3 meters leo gets to spam 46S yrc to fully establish himself as a huge neutral game presence.

At 4 meters leo can do just about whatever he wants.

Meter is super important for him.

Unfortunately i actually wrote alot more than this, but my ipads undo button decided it wanted to be a dick, and im not re writing everything i said, but if it seems kinda wonky, thats why.

I need to find a good counter for when the opponent backdashes after blocking 6H.

All in all, i think leo is much more about using his fireballs at neutral to control the opponents keepaway options, then going in once he has meter, unless of course the opponent wants to rush leo... But most everyone ive played against just plays keepaway from me.

[zankoku]

5. Pineapple is hard to deal with for leo. If hes trying to get in against it and it makes contact with him, then it will fall with leo and be a ticking time bomb allowing elph to easily follow it in and pressure leo. Even if leo hitconfirms the elph player, it doesnt matter because the bomb will explode and knock leo out of his combo and the elph player can easily confirm into an air combo.
6. Double jumping over AA pineapple is t the greatest look because leo will fall into elphs c.S AA
7. Staying on the ground underneath the AA pineapple isnt a good look because elph can follow it in and beat just about any leo retaliation such as poking or jumping with her 5H

Use [4]6S or [4]6H YRC to disable the initial pineberry hit, 6P Elphelt if she's trying to jump over the sonic boom and in at you. For overhand pineberry tosses, you can dash in past it and cut your run short with either 2D or FD brake, depending on how risky you're feeling.

[Kikuichimonji]

Leo seems to have a type of "build" so to speak:

At 1 meter he can threaten things like 5H>6H yrc into throw/6K mixup

I haven't tested it yet, but I'm pretty sure people can throw Leo out of his 6K here because Leo's 6K doesn't have throw invincibility on frame 1.

All in all, i think leo is much more about using his fireballs at neutral to control the opponents keepaway options, then going in once he has meter, unless of course the opponent wants to rush leo... But most everyone ive played against just plays keepaway from me.

If I'm full screen as Leo, I'm just going to throw HS fireballs until someone jumps over one or shows that they can stop me from doing that. I don't have to go in if they're running away and I just throw HS fireball/s fireball.

Leo's options at actually closing the distance to far S range seem absolutely silly bad, so unless I can't throw fireballs at all, I'd rather let the opponent do that for me.

I need to find a good counter for when the opponent backdashes after blocking 6H.

You need to time something to hit around 15-20 frames after 6HS is recovered. The options that work will vary by character, because Millia's backdash is only 11 frames and only has 5 frames invulnerability, but Leo's has 9 frames invincibility and 16 total frames, for example. But I would try dashing 5K, far S, dashing far S, 2D, and dashing 2S. Hitting on the 10th frame of the backdash seems to punish the majority of backdashes, but some aren't vulnerable until later.

[Yuhoke]

So, funny thing happened with BT D today.

I was playing with my friend (Faust) and got into a situation where I was in BT stance and he threw Meteor out. So, meteors coming soon, he comes next to me and blocks (cause you know, combo breaker if I hit him and free pressure/combo when the meteors come). The meteors fly down and I shield them with BT D, and Leo does his counter strike on Faust, even though he was blocking! (Unblockable!)

We were both surprised, and cracked up so hard we had to stop playing :D

[zankoku]

Yeah if the opponent is close enough then the counter animation triggers on any activation of the shield. There were some cute tricks done with that in this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKq53uIR4Q

[ThatHiroGuy]

So you can enter BT stance from 632146HS...

 

I wonder if there's any other secret ways to activate it...

[Drake Aldan]

So you can enter BT stance from 632146HS...

 

I wonder if there's any other secret ways to activate it...

 

I believe this is actually listed in the in-game movelist.

 

IIRC the ways to enter BT are:

 

5H hold

6H hold

Throw

236S > 236H

236H (must cross up)

j236H hit

632146H hold

 

 

The totally lame thing to do is get 632146H blocked, enter BT, and then BT D their punish because they were too slow.

[ThatHiroGuy]

I believe this is actually listed in the in-game movelist.

 

Neh, I made sure to check it before posting. It only lists the move itself, and doesn't say anything about entering the stance. I figured it's been long enough for people to realize now, but I saw it wasn't mentioned here lol.

 

I still would like to think there's something hidden within Leo, but there prolly isn't.

[DocCeaser]

I'm new to Leo and GG in general but I was wondering if there are any good options after 5H to beat a throw? I get thrown out of everything except a delayed sweep. It's really hard for me to enforce pressure when 6H seems to be throw bait and 6K whiffs alot. 

[felirx]

6H YRC throw or stuff seemed to sometimes work. Maybe.

Going for Rekka instead at least prevents you from being thrown, but you lose your pressure. [4]6S depends on how far you are from your opponent after 5H, since it's up to -8 if it hits point blank.

Going for 5H hold into stance and stuff is a different route, but this really relies on enemy respect for 5H.