Venom vs Elphelt

[DaiAndOh]

Discuss the matchup here.

[Venussail91]

So um.. what can we even do here?

[VictoryThief]

Well you can 6p if they're lazy and using bridal charge to approach. It feels like you have to really rely on fundamentals, like zoning with 6h, 5s, and so on. I think 5s at nearly max range is critical here. If you can get them to respect 5s, then you'll have time to set up formations.

[DaiAndOh]

Well you can 6p if they're lazy and using bridal charge to approach. It feels like you have to really rely on fundamentals, like zoning with 6h, 5s, and so on. I think 5s at nearly max range is critical here. If you can get them to respect 5s, then you'll have time to set up formations.

 

The main issue is that I think she can 2HS (the slide) under f.S, if they're trigger happy with that, it's kind of bleh.

 

2HS is not low profile though, so 2S can outpoke it. Her 2S is low profile though and can go under yours in a poke war, but most Elphelt's I've played seem to rely on f.S, 2HS and Bridal.

 

Be careful how you FD. The MINIMUM advantage on Bridal Express is -5, it will be more in her favor if she does it from a distance. If you can instant block it, that will be useful for getting a turn.

 

Grenade toss will eat your balls *sigh* (not in 1.1 haha)

 

If she has meter, I prefer to have my oki come from the air (such as K Ball oki). Every time her cake super has tried to hit me out, I've only gotten the weak hits. Her meter usage is stronger on offense between her RC conversions and unblockables.

 

Although her true potential may not be a thing in matches yet with unblockable loops, if it becomes that you'll have another do or die matchup on your hands...

[Justice7541]

What's the gap on shotgun > reload > shotgun?  I was trying to 2S out of it on normal block but I kept getting counterhit even though the gap should be 6f.  I know it's fast but it doesn't look like it should be beating out 2S?  Maybe I'm just getting netplayed.

[DaiAndOh]

I'll be looking to get a more accurate number from some of my friends later (remind me) but the gap I think is 1 Frame with best Reload, and that's level 1 Shotgun.

 

Frame data section lists level 1 as +1, can cancel into reload at Frame 14-25. 28 frame recovery, 3 startup and 1 active makes 32 frames total. Reload is 17 frames.

 

So basically, it becomes 31 frames total with fastest possible reload, making it +2. I don't think any good Elphelt will be reloading late enough to make it significantly minus.

 

EDIT: Apparently I hear the frame data is wrong? Need to look into it.

 

Level 2 Shotgun...forget about a gap lol.

[SIne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAyoCcr2ISw

I think that is just how venom should approach that matchup, rather than a specific style . Elphet cant really get in without get in without taking risks but she has pretty good pokes and excellent abare with shot gun , so I think he is being smart by just zoning, staying out of air bridal express range so she cant get in and just dashing to the other side of the screen and using cr,lol I think its a frustrating thing to fight against for koichi .I haven't seen any other matches of ertai so I cant say for sure

[DaiAndOh]

So my calculations were wrong because the frame data listed was wrong...I need to look more into this...

[DaiAndOh]

And ended up finding the answer on twitter. Important Elphelt stuff to note:

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B67f5TwCYAAzgC8.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B67f56CCQAEvor5.png

 

Blocking grenade high will give her less plus frames (somewhat logical, but easy to overlook)

 

On the f.S > 2HS string:

 

You can backdash. On IB or normal block, you can jump, and if they're being really predictable with this string, you can even do a low Blitz (may also catch Bridal Express?)

 

2HS > Grenade is even. 2HS is a level 5 move, so other moves > Grenade should be minus on block (less so if at all if you FD).

 

On unblockable setups:

 

Getting out if iffy. Might be able to jump on meterless setups (and get hit in air with little consequence). Might depend on wakeup timing. Of note, Venom has a very fast Face Up Getup time.

 

Reversal backdash/blitz helps get out too.

 

On Dealing with Shotgun:

 

The gap between shots in the corner is 4 frames. 5 Frame attacks work (so for Venom 2K and c.S, although I doubt you'll be close enough for the later). Jumping out also works.

 

No gap with level 2 -> level 1 blasts.

 

Stance P > HS is the only the thing you need to worry about for mashing (does not gatling into Stance S).

[Justice7541]

Apparently grenade ticks during superflash too so you can Dark Angel (almost 120f superflash) while she's holding it and it'll explode in her face. I think she can still backdash or Blitz the explosion itself but that leaves her open to the incoming Dark Angel. Haven't tested practical applications extensively but might be good for some lulz.

[DaiAndOh]

Hmmm that could be decent if she gets knocked down by it automatically in the air?

[Justice7541]

Hmmm that could be decent if she gets knocked down by it automatically in the air?

 

She can still air Blitz and it doesn't give KD, she can tech.  On the plus side I'm testing it now and it's actually really hard to Blitz or backdash out.  You basically have a reversal window right after the superflash (maybe 1-2f extra, tops) to do whatever it is you're going to do to escape the explosion.  Dark Angel will combo her if you're close enough, otherwise you can YRC it before the explosion to take a combo.  It's going to do really bad damage thanks to high explosion proration but at least it'll give full corner carry and knockdown.

[TittyFOFO]

Air Bridal Express loses to 2HS pretty easily, unless she's more directly above you (in which case you should dash under her and do 6P,6HS). Depending on spacing, you could potentially do something like:

CH 2HS, K ball, micro dash 6P, bh, 6HS, whatever

That works at midscreen, and in the corner you can get stuff for up to 200 dmg or so. Blitz shield is another option, but you might be better off saving the meter for DAA or YRC Stinger.

Biggest problem here is grenades IMO. They give her a pretty easy way in since they eat balls AND leave a hazard on the stage with a deceptively large hitbox when exploding. In a lot of cases, you won't even be able to punish her stupid shit effectively due to fear of getting blown up. Once she's in, you get to deal with shotgun stupidity.

[Redefinition]

Going air to air with her is a pain. Her j.D and j.S are stupid good and her grenades eats balls, so if she doesn't have grenade on you, just anti-air her, because she doesn't have tremendous jump in attacks.Don't have much more to add that anyone else hasn't said already. Overall this matchup doesn't seem THAT bad except when she gets in. Try and get on dat ass and once you're in make it count, since you REALLY REALLY don't want her getting momentum.

[GodPress]

Yeah, I need to consult you folk on here because I can't crack this matchup at all. The more I play it the more helpless Venom feels in it. If you attempt to zone grounded at fullscreen you're greeted by rifle to punish the set though, air set isn't too bad. However, zoning comes across as incredibly difficult because she has so many tools to manuever around balls 2HS, Shotgun fire removing balls, shotgun action roll etc. 

So realistically what do we have in this MU to be threatening? Her normals are very much comparable and arguably better than ours. She definitely has the damage in the corner and the ability to take the round as soon as you get put in the corner. She has a weak wake-up game but so does Venom. Comparatively I'm not entirely sure what Venom has over her that makes this anything less than uphill struggle. 

Evidently there is a really strong focus on putting her in the corner and once there not allowing her out however, to do this I think you have to take a much more cautious approach to keeping here there because if you allow her to DA out, burst or otherwise get out via smart FD usage the struggle continues.

She's relatively easy to anti-air however you have to be wary of her stalling with aerial bridal and catching the recovery of your AA into massive damage. I've had relatively poor experience trying to air-to-air though. 

I'm aware of how whiny this post is too, I just don't see where Ven can win this matchup reliably without the Elphelt making multiple severe mistakes.

Oh, if you catch elph with a corner dust bare in mind the standard timing for j.shd will whiff on the j.D, either delay it or do sh > madstruggle as SMF suggested on Twitter. 

[DaiAndOh]

IIRC, Shotgun fire can only eat 1 ball at a time? If she shotgun fires a ball, that doesn't provide her with a specific advantage if it's just a hit ball for zoning.

If she's always breaking out the rifle when you're setting, then I feel your sets are getting too predictable. Usually you can set one and block the rifle if they're doing it on reaction, which isn't a bad situation since you have that one ball out.

Again, 2HS is not a full low profile, splitting balls is a good way to cover it. And full screen/near full screen, it's definitely not a threat or even efficient.

Air bridal you can wait for it to blitz or 2HS, jump to meet her with an ib, jump back with j.HS, or just get out of the way, the latter isn't a bad idea if it will greatly increase your positioning.

And yeah, when it comes down to it, it's probably an all or nothing matchup. Win in neutral -> (get to pressure, try to open up and score a combo) x n. So are most of Venom's in the end.

I feel it's in her favor, and can be frustrating if you get hit with an unblockable or huge shotgun combo, but it's not as outrageous as some matchups because she doesn't have overwhelming speed and mobility. Despite some ridiculous hitboxes and hurtboxes, you CAN win the neutral without being too restricted, unlike Chipp or Millia imo.

Also, I must urge you to practice ibing shotgun pressure as I mentioned in some posts above. It really can help you make all the difference.

[GodPress]

Shotgun blast will remove any projectiles that are in its radius, its circumvented by using charged balls.

You're correct on being able to block the rifle after a set however that will still leave her with a few options of stocking a pineberry or active reloading and reacting, or switching to shotty to manuever. 

Definitely on point with her 2HS not low-profiling.

In my experience against bridal the best port of call is usually jump back HS as you suggested. I'm not sure about 2HS as it's only consistent if the aerial bridal is done from fairly far away to hit with the tip of the cue on 2HS, otherwise you run the risk of CH trading in her favor. Blitz is a good shout though.

No doubt about shotgun pressure needing to IBed to have a fighting chance in the corner.

Also: starter > c.S(3) > pqv > 6H > pqv> 5p> iad SHD > 6H is an option against her in midscreen for a little extra damage.

[DaiAndOh]

It's ok to block the rifle after a set. You have a ball out and are probably at or near full screen. If she stays in rifle stance you can start a careful approach or tap the ball to force to her to take other actions. If she loads pineberry, that's perfectly fine, just mind the effect the explosion may have on your zoning. If she goes to shotgun, well she's full screen again, and will usually approach from there (of note she can still super when in Shotgun, and generally common knowledge by now that she can use Grenade and Bridal).

Oh one other way to handle aerial bridal express: Gold Burst.

[TittyFOFO]

Great thing about this MU is that you get to control the start of the round here pretty much for free. 2S beats all El options out the gate, which forces her to back up or jump forward. If she jumps forward, 2S recovers fast enough for you to still AA so she has to be cautious. Her best option by far is to retreat, at which point you can begin to establish a ball game.

 

Even if it's just a P ball, you can force her to take certain actions like Dai said. If she leaves the ground to get over it, run past her to AA or get out more balls. If she switches to shotty, approach slowly and stay out of the blast range to see what she does. If she shoots the ball, do far slash into 2S and wait a second while crouching to make sure you don't eat a 5HS. If she tries to roll under a ball, pick that ho up during the recovery.

 

Obviously these options change once she has meter for Y/RC/super, so be mindful of that. But yeah, life gets a lot easier once you have at least one ball out. Don't summon balls after block strings tho, for fear of 5HS punishment. Even that's not all bad tho, cuz if she guesses wrong and you duck that shit you can punish with YRC Stinger for a full combo IIRC (or at least 2S xx H Stinger).

 

If you end up in the air for whatever reason, watch your approach. Her AA options suck outside of close slash range (and that shotgun stance dashpunch thing), so max range j.HS is still viable. Just FD if you're inside of 5S(c) range tho, cuz you're not gonna win. If you don't have meter for FD, delaying Mad Struggle is one of your least bad options.

I think that just about everything else has been discussed already. Once you get offense going in the corner, be mindful of cake boss super and dead angles, since her's is pretty good IMO. I personally wouldn't bother baiting her bursts unless the player is just being super blatant, since if you jump to bait and you were wrong, you'll prolly eat an AA 5Sc. Plus being knock all the way across the screen from El isn't that bad of a thing as long as you can get a ball out.