Venom vs Ky

[DaiAndOh]

Discuss the matchup here.

[Venussail91]

I'm really not sure how to handle this matchup.  Is Ky able to out poke us?  Is Stinger very useful at all?  It almost feels like we have to be very restricted in what we use.

[DaiAndOh]

Ky and Venom are relative equals in the poke game, Venom f.S being a little longer, but Ky doesn't need charge to follow up his pokes.

Stinger can be useful in this match, but depending on the habits of the Ky player, they may throw out lots of Stun Dippers (slide move), and you should adjust accordingly.

[Khaoz77]

Yo!

So, I'm making good progress with Venom, and I'm loving XRD, but there is one huge problem, and his name is Ky Kiske. This matchup is fucking difficult for me, its like I can't really play my game becauseKy has the tools to just negate all the shit I do. He has the good range I have, he has projectiles to stop my Stinger Aims, when I'm trying to apply pressure, I am met with a c.K or a DP, when I feel I have the space to summon balls, he's in the air either throwing a projectile or dashing in to bop me with a j.S.

Is this matchup not in Venom's favor or something, because I am getting really frustrated, to the point where I don't even feel like I'm learning something when I lose. It's either I wasn't fast enough or he pressed a button and I just got hit. Help!

[SIne]

The matchup is even if not, in venom's favor. Ehuangsan did a really good write up here : http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4133-my-ky-trade-secrets-thread/page-3

though that was ACR, alot of the same principles apply; you can force ky into making poor decisions by using multiple ball set ups and teleports. Keep in mind , you can summon in the air , even multiple times, IMO  this match should be played defensively because can you force ky into trying to IAD in, which venom can 6P easily. If you knock ky down there are a bunch of safe jump setups you can use, to bait DP and his dp is rather poor to begin with. You are supposed to make the ky player frustrated, not the  other way around. Another way you can approach the matchup is use passive aggresive zoning for okizeme depending on how the ky player's style, like use two ball setups hit the first ball,  then when he throws a fire ball to nullify it, just teleport and punish.

as for stinger aim is should not be used without YRC, especially in a block string because Ky gets in for free, unless you are properly spaced, even then he can pretty much greed sever over it and it will trade or CH you so Carcass raid is recommended instead. Depeding on the where Ky is in the air, you wanna c.S or 6P or 2HS or air throw , force him to double jump in the air to bait your ground action, so you can reposition yourself by backdashing or forward dashing. just my 2 cents...

[Khaoz77]

Ah, okay, I see. I know how I'm going to adjust my gameplay now. I wasn't doing much air Summoning. I will also try to anti air more consistently, but its a bit iffy only because Ky has those air projectiles. I'm going to try and negate that by setting a HS ball in there or something. Thanks for your reply, it really helped me out.

[DaiAndOh]

Ok just want to say that this line is bullshit "Venom has been Ky's worst matchup in every version of GG since XX" come on...

 

I can't comment too much on the Xrd matchup myself since I haven't fought anyone good with Ky consistently yet...

 

Can Ky Greed Sever over S Stinger Aim? Never seen that happen myself. Most of them loved to Stun Dipper underneath them though.

 

And yes, Ky's DP is not very good, however, you should play around in the beginning, as well as learning how to safe jump it for oki, and punish attempts. It can still punish over aggressiveness/sloppy play. 

 

That said, we have matchup threads for this discussion, moving.

[Kashell]

Any other Venom players have difficulty against Ky? I was playing some matches last night and could not win against a single Ky player.

[Redefinition]

Just played against local Ky tonight, gonna put my opinions up here. We beat Ky at neutral. Our f.S ever so slightly outpokes his, we can put more projectiles on the screen at once, and QV will absorb normal stun edges if they're thrown out at random. Most of the time, Ky wants to come to us. His pressure game is a little more annoying than I thought tbh, since he has the new lightning gates, and our ways of getting out of pressure kind of blow, but dead angle is your friend, and his pressure isn't really all THAT great.

 

After f.S I would probably not bother with a stinger unless you hit with it. On block, it's safer to summon a ball. Ky j.H is actually really hard to anti-air, and if he's pretty deep/close to you when hitting you with it, you're probably just better straight up blocking. 2H > carcass is better than 6P at a longer range j.H, and leads into a nice combo. 

 

I'm generally in agreement of this matchup being in our favor, but definitely not as hard as 6.5-3.5. Maybe like 5.5-4.5. Ky does damage once he's in, but we can keep him away pretty well, and he doesn't pressure all that well.

[DaiAndOh]

I'd only try QV stuff against Stun Edge from near full screen though. If he happens to YRC that Stunedge, it your QV may not matter.

[Redefinition]

Yeah for sure. You only want to QV stun edge if he's sitting on 0 meter and trying to zone you (for whatever reason). But it does work if you want to throw it out there.

[kenmastersX]

Quick FYI, if no one knows about this yet apparently you can make his vapour thrust dp whiff completely if you do Venom's 2D, even on his wakeup or if he reversal DPs.  Could be really good for huge punishes.

[DaiAndOh]

Yeah, Ky's DP has gone over low profiles since forever. One of the reasons why it's subpar.

Given 2D > Carcass > c.S > combo is a thing in this game. might be worth going for now (Carcass won't come out on the whiff, and is perfectly fine on block)

[Try Again?]

Not sure if people know this but max distance Ky beats Venom. If he puts out one of those seals and does a stun edge, it goes through QV and hits you. It will destroy any projectile you do and still hit you. At max range he can do a seal low to the ground and avoid a lot of things with a TK stun edge. I played against Steve H Ky ( Not sure if you guys know him. ) and learned a lot about that matchup. Id say its even or very little in Ky's favor. Ky  can punish ball sets and stinger aims very easily. If you stay out of his Stun dipper range but not max distance..it gives you a lot of freedom and can force ky to make mistakes. 

[Redefinition]

Not sure if people know this but max distance Ky beats Venom. If he puts out one of those seals and does a stun edge, it goes through QV and hits you. It will destroy any projectile you do and still hit you. At max range he can do a seal low to the ground and avoid a lot of things with a TK stun edge. I played against Steve H Ky ( Not sure if you guys know him. ) and learned a lot about that matchup. Id say its even or very little in Ky's favor. Ky  can punish ball sets and stinger aims very easily. If you stay out of his Stun dipper range but not max distance..it gives you a lot of freedom and can force ky to make mistakes. 

Max distance as in full screen? I don't believe charged stun edge hits that far (does it? I honestly can't remember), but regardless, if he puts out a gate, it's just a matter of being wary about it and not throwing out anything dumb before he does stun edge. Jump ball set is a good answer to this. If he jumps at you instead because you're scared to throw out projectiles, react and AA/ball set. If he throws out the stun edge, block and ball set/stinger/carcass. The more gates he puts out in order to hit you with max screen stun edges, the more balls you can set up to cover your approach if he's just playing keep away.

[Kumlekar]

Max distance as in full screen? I don't believe charged stun edge hits that far (does it? I honestly can't remember), but regardless, if he puts out a gate, it's just a matter of being wary about it and not throwing out anything dumb before he does stun edge. Jump ball set is a good answer to this. If he jumps at you instead because you're scared to throw out projectiles, react and AA/ball set. If he throws out the stun edge, block and ball set/stinger/carcass. The more gates he puts out in order to hit you with max screen stun edges, the more balls you can set up to cover your approach if he's just playing keep away.

In xrd Ky's 236H doesn't stop after a set distance unlike how 236D worked in AC.

[Redefinition]

In xrd Ky's 236H doesn't stop after a set distance unlike how 236D worked in AC.

the 236H through a gate doesn't go quite full screen, which is what I meant. Almost, but not quite.

[GodPress]

He was talking about split ciel 236S rather than 236H. You're correct about 236H through split ciel though.

 

Full screen QVs in anticipation of a projectile are vulnerable to split ciel/j.D stun edge. Though, I don't know why you would do it that way instead of QVing in response to the zoning type.

[Kumlekar]

He was talking about split ciel 236S rather than 236H. You're correct about 236H through split ciel though.

 

Full screen QVs in anticipation of a projectile are vulnerable to split ciel/j.D stun edge. Though, I don't know why you would do it that way instead of QVing in response to the zoning type.

Nah, I was talking about 236H without the dust ring placement before hand.  236S with the dust placement is insane though and can punish most options at long range if he has the ring out.

[ehuangsan]

To be fair, I think this matchup did improve quite a bit for Ky. Split Ciels force Venom to setup and make decisions more quickly than in previous GGs. Plus they FINALLY gave Ky an out against upball to perpetuity in the corner with the improved RTL and barrier which is huge. Previously Venom could flowchart a victory by 1) get knockdown somewhere, 2) dark angel Ky into the corner, 3) run up and chain into upball, 4) do upball forever, 5) Ky dies, everyone goes home. Venom could feed his family with that basic strategy.

 

Overall I think Venom still has a slight advantage (5.5-4.5) simply because first principles still apply (Ky must attack or lose), but at least Ky can now have outs in the corner other than passively dying.

[Try Again?]

So when Ky is mid distance what do you guys do? A lot of the time i get out poked into a Stun dipper. I also have a lot of difficulty anti airing Ky. His J.H and air stun edges are kinda hard to deal with. Do you guys use 2HS more in this match? This match just really has me frustrated. Since we can't beat Ky air to air, when he does Stun Edge YRC, what do you guys typically do? I appreciate all the help everyone. 

Also, Green Sever, can we like not punish that on regular block if we are too far away? 

[Redefinition]

Backdash ball set, usually. If you get set up on Ky with balls, you are at a huge advantage. I usually use 6P more than 2H on this match, but each work better vs. different normals. Adjust based on what your local Ky player does.

 

And yeah, GS can be kind of annoying. If you're far away and have 50 meter, just far slash, stinger RC into combo. Otherwise, just set a ball and reset your neutral game plan, imo.

[TittyFOFO]

So maybe I'm the only one that didn't know this, but Stun Dipper goes under Dark Angel completely. I was in a position where I was looking to chip out Steve H, and thought that even if he did Stun Dipper he would stand up into it. So yeah, don't do that.

There are also frames where 2D won't make it under a VT. I'm guessing that its just during startup, but it can be a factor if you're too slow with K ball oki and stuff like that.

[DaiAndOh]

Yup, Stun Dipper (and Grand Viper) can be reversal'd to go under Dark Angel, since the XX games. Frame 1 low profile...

2D goes under during low profile frames. There's less of those in Xrd compared to AC, frame data has the details.

[Redefinition]

Played a lot more of this matchup at NWM.

Stun edge through gate is a lot more annoying than I had previously thought. Just be super careful with ball set ups. Don't go too crazy with throwing them out. It's better to set them up for the threat of them than to actually send them flying, really, if he's setting up gates.

I feel like this matchup is a lot closer to even than I had thought before. It's much harder to set up against Ky with the gated stun edges, and that alone pushes this matchup as pretty damn close to being even. Your f.S still is really good and f.S stinger RC should be a go-to combo starter from neutral. Also keep the pressure on. Ky's DP still sucks. I'm not saying completely disrespect it, but as long as you every once in a while approach with raw 2D into whatever you want, you can scare them into not DPing against you and keep them in the corner longer.