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Magaki

Elphelt vs Ky

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Discuss the matchup here.

Summary

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Gameplan

Neutral game:
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Offense:
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Defense:
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Character Specifics

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Would someone please offer some insight on what Elphelt can do against this guy? Ky's normals completely beat hers in every regard. He can shut down full screen grenade pulls, low profile like no tomorrow against her 5H, and DP through pressure. He is a balanced shoto type, so of course his tools are solid... but this feels like a 2/8 in Ky's favor.

Help a noob out. Should I be just reacting to him and not going in? I try qcbK, 2H, jumping qcbK, even 6H is so easy for him to punish.

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Well the Ky u go against probably just outplayed you, i'd feel the match is pretty even or in Elphelt favor actually, haven't checking the frame data, but El f.s is pretty much the same or better than Ky f.s. and don't spam 5h too much, it's good button only if used on reaction (nail jumping / backdashing opponent, or hit confirming f.s / 2.s) and btw u can low profile vapor Thrust with 2s and iirc low profiling Stun Edge with 2h (but i need to double check this)

 

And i don't understand how he can shut down grenade ... i meant ... that thing is damn fast and stay on screen like forever.

 

And i see your button for poke ... no, all those stuff is very situation heavy button... try to stick on f.s, 2.s, j.s and maybe j.h ... a friend of mine that play Ky say, her j.h is hard to go against, but i'm not really sure about that.

 

If anyone have more experience in Ky Mu and find what i stated here false, please correct me ty ^.^

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I see... It's probably me over hitting 5H on a guarding opponent and then getting nailed by him before I can recover. Stun Edge DOES make pulling grenades extremely risky though. I'll try the 2H through Stun Edge trick a few times, see if it works. I doubt it works on the charged version.

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You can 2H under both versions of stunedge without too much difficulty. One thing to note is if Ky does 2D>236H oki a bit too close to you and doesn't delay the 236H enough, it'll pass right over you thanks to Elphelt's lengthy wake up time, so don't be afraid to press buttons here if the Ky messes up.

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It's pretty much a MU that I play everyday so I'm quite knowledgeable about it.

About the grenade:
-236P in this matchup is a bad idea. Prefer to go for j236P instead.
-NEVER pull the grenade in neutral if he's at mid distance. He can uses either 236H>YRC or Ride the lightning on reaction. Main reason why he will do that is because both will cancel the toss (Ride eats ANY projectile so he can use that in combos if there is a berry around too to get knockdown without fearing it.) but you will most of the time end up having to block them which will pretty much always result in the grenade exploding on your face due to the very long blockstun and giving him a knockdown. If you also were in the air, don't forget that Ride is air unblockable if done on the ground and removes a LOT of tension on FD block.
This might seem silly, but Ride is very strong in this version and if it is done at mid-range, it becomes safe on block. Try to IB as much as possible in order to try to punish it and have him as close to you as possible. It's also a guaranteed way for Ky to get out of the unblockable setup.

More notes:
-Despite the fact that Elphelt got faster normals, Ky's range is much bigger and make rushing him really difficult. His fS and 2S are very strong for ground footsies and fS>3H on crouching or CH confirms allow him to now combo tensionless out of it.

-Don't jump. His AAs are very strong and 2H will beat most of your air approach options. j214K to reset pressure should never be used against him because of that too. Also, a 2H confirm allow him to get some very good damage (Yes, Elphelt isn't the only character who can deal high damage with just an AA). This MU is pretty much a ground heavy one. Though, if he jumps, don't hesitate to cS him or air-to-air jS. His aerial game is far from being as good as his ground one.

-Unlike what was said above, don't ever use 2H in this matchup. It will only work at close-mid range and at this range, he will rather go for a YRC if he throws a Stun Edge meaning you're giving him a free CH into big damage (At this range anyway, he's gonna mostly abuse his normals). The only efficient way to use that would be to do a dash 2H against a SE long range as a hard read which is pretty much an option with huge risks and okay rewards unless he's in the corner which is very situationnal. Play it safe and slowly make your way in.

-5H is an okay tool in this matchup and it will be something you will throw out once in a while to deal with fS happy Ky. Make sure to throw it out once in a while to make him respect your mid range game more (It's the only reliable tool you have mid range against him. Gets hard countered by his 236K and dash 2S.).
Otherwise, your main ground poke is 2S. Why 2S ? Because it will beat 236K>(RC) attempts and will trade in your favour thanks to the stagger on CH against his pokes. You can use 2S if you hard read a DP but if he blocks it, you won't be able to do much pressure-wise considering the few gatlings that 2S leads to. Just throw your pineberry as usual instead.

-Like you pretty much guessed, Ky completely dominates mid and long range and got hard counters to everything you can do which is the main reason why this matchup can be very difficult if you're not patient. Thankfully, the close range game is completely in her favour with her much faster normals. An important thing you have to keep in mind is that your fastest normal comes out in 4f and his fastest normals comes out in 5f. This makes stagger pressure a very strong option against him and even if you don't open him up, it will give you plenty of tension to convert the next hitconfirm into big damage.
Like I said above, don't ever throw j214K. Usually, j214K's odd hurtbox allow you to beat several AAs but it just won't work on him. Prefer to go for max range Bridal, 236P>fS>2P or 236H to reset pressure. Obviously, considering his options, shotgun pressure is very strong against him and his wide hurtbox while blocking makes it even easier.
Speaking of shotgun, it's one of those matchups where it can be particularly useful. SG-H for instance will cancel any SE he throws out and the invul on SG-K will make him twice before throwing out pokes. The main answer he has against it is pokes with big active frames like 2D. Once he got 50 tension, he will rather go for safer options like 214K RC. Shotgun is a tool that will force him to respect your neutral so don't hesitate using it once in a while.

-Defense-wise, it's actually quite okay. FD does work very well against him (He doesn't have options like Elphelt against FD with Bridal express and other moves like that.) so make sure to use it. Her DAA is very good too as long as you watch your spacing.
Something else that is quite important: His main 50/50 in the corner (popularized by Ain) consists of getting a knockdown and then throw a Charged Stun Edge through a grinder to then jump and do either land low>airdash high.
However, the airdash part doesn't work that well against Elphelt because of how short her crouching hurtbox is. In that case, the Ky player will rather go for jH/land 5K which actually allow you to fuzzy guard it ! Just press 4 for a bit when you see him jump then press 1. The only options he has to directly go for a high after landing are 5D and 214K and they are all reactables.

I'll try to write a proper and cleaner MU guide when I'll have more time but the point in that MU is that you're forced to play as safely as possible because of how good his neutral is. This is however by no means in Elphelt's favour because you need to take risks to really get in against him considering his superior mid range game while all his options are much safer. Would say it's either even or slightly in Ky's favour for this very reason alone.

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Just got time to read in depth of Magaki guide, that's solid guide. but I don't agree with Ky completely dominate long range (3/4 screen away), the only real threat from that range is the orb from split ciel and j.d, Elph can set her Grenade much faster than Ky setting Orbs, unless i'm missed something why u say he completely dominate long range?

 

And Mid Range also isn't that bad either, any reason why Ky button is better than Elphet f.s & 2.s? She got good confirm from both pokes and good corner carry or convert to damage and corner reset.

 

And if i remember correctly, Ky SD will low profile Elphet DAA, try not to be too predictible when using it, and Elph can also low profile Ky DAA with 2s

 

I think that's all for now, you make a very good do and don't on this match up, but i got the impression being on mid and long range is bad for Elphet from your writing that i don't find it's true on my experience.

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So here's a quick question, can elphelt punish grim sever? I tried using 5s and 2s but neither was fast enough. Is it just not possible at max range? 

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You can't 6P or airthrow?

 

On block? I'm pretty sure neither option would be feasible on block, especially since grim sever pushes back and elphs 6p is one of her slowest normals.

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Airthrowing makes sense, except greed sever has an enormous hitbox and the only plausible way you are going to do so is running under them and then airthrowing. 6P is just dumb and will most likely never work. If you can, just IB. Greed Sever is minus as fuck anyways and if you can call it you get a nice punish, make them think twice about doing it again

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Airthrowing makes sense, except greed sever has an enormous hitbox and the only plausible way you are going to do so is running under them and then airthrowing. 6P is just dumb and will most likely never work. If you can, just IB. Greed Sever is minus as fuck anyways and if you can call it you get a nice punish, make them think twice about doing it again

 

But you see that's what my original question was, how exactly do I go about this? I tried 2S and 5S, but neither of them worked, he had enough time to block. Now I didn't IB, I'm still getting the hang of that, but if I do IB would 5S work?

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Uhh, there isn't really a hurtbox on the blade part of GS. That's what makes so many Ky players use it spaced out, since it's an overhead with deceptive range that you combo into. You can maybe space f.S since Elphelt has mostly no hurtboxes on it, I'd rather just avoid that and make it whiff. Don't forget you have Judge Better Half (it's invincible startup right?) And of course Blitz shield getting it out of the way

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If Ky does a raw GS,then jumping up and hitting him with an air normal is possible if you're quick about it. Up in your face,use j.p or j.s,if he's at a distance,use j.d. If he uses it in a blockstring,more than likely you're going to have to block it. Try to instant block it and that's an easy punish with either f.S or 2S

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Greed Sever is -13 on block so, in theory, you can always punish it. In practice, it's a bit more complicated because it hits crouchers quite late. Can't really bring accurate numbers here because the frame data doesn't specifically mentions when it does hit crouchers but judging the fact that it got 19f startup but it's still very easy to react to, I would say that it's safe to assume that it hits late like in previous games.

Thing is that the frame data is calculated based on when you block it standing. Meaning that the more time you need to react to it (You were crouching and react by pressing 4), the lower the frame disadvantage is.
Same thing with GS being used for footsies and only having the last active frames being blocked.

Anyway, situations where fS gets blocked can happen yeah. Though, never saw a 2S or 2D not punishing a blocked GS (Both are 8f startup).

Another reason why a punish would be blocked might be due to GS' attack level. It's a pretty big move so people assume it got a lot of blockstun/hitstop when it actually doesn't so people delay further their punish to hit with the right timing when they shouldn't (In Xrd, I would say the best example for this kind of move is definetely Venom's QV. Saw plenty of people get pressure reset for free due to its small attack level.)

Options that will pretty much always work and are quite consistent:
-IB>fS/microdash cS (Best punish)

As long as you get used to actually not sliding from 1 to 4 when it comes to reacting to overheads but simply releasing 1 and tapping 4, this will always work. Also, microdash cS on crouching opponents is a painful punish and leads to ton of options with tension.

-microdash 2P (Easiest punish)

Should always work. Netplay or not. Also the most common punish you want to go for when you just don't want to bother going for the optimal punish in any matchup. Nice rewards on a 2P compared to other characters thanks to the Elphelt factor.

Of course, there is still airthrowing on reaction but I would rather stick with easier (And actually more rewarding)solutions. Just to really make sure that it will work 100% of the time.

Dunno about stuffing him with air normals though. Let's use some data to figure out the reactions required:
Elphelt's jump startup is 3f. jP is 6f. If you want to stuff with a jP, you need to react at least 9f before the move hits.

Assuming GS will hit on the first active frame, that would be 19f. So you need to react on GS' 10th frame maximum to stuff it with jP on reaction.

Definetely doesn't look like it's possible to do that on reaction.

Also, an IB>microdash cS punish will hurt much more than a jP/jS air hit into air combo.

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