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[Xrd] Sol Badguy vs. Elphelt Valentine

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  • Use this thread to discuss the Elphelt matchup.
  • If the matchup is giving you trouble, check to see if this post already contains info which will help you. If not, be as specific as possible when asking for help and others will be glad to give advice.
  • Please focus more heavily on discussing how to play the matchup properly than who is at advantage/disadvantage.
  • This post will be updated to collect useful info over time.
Round Start:
  • Jumping away to create space is a solid choice. Mix this with attacking immediately (such as f.S) if they want to move in after you.
  • f.S will counter her own f.S/2S but only with frame perfect timing. 2S can low profile it otherwise.

 

Neutral:
  • Don't let them get away with air Bridal Express in neutral, it's a free CH HSVV combo on reaction (unless they YRC).
  • You pretty much can't counter poke this character reliably or safely. 2D can low profile her f.S to CH her but she can throw out 5K to beat that at pretty low risk.
  • Trades with her 2S will leave you neutral at best since it staggers on CH.
  • Our 2S doesn't do much at all in neutral. It clashes with 5K at a distance and results in serious pain if she f.S you out of it.
  • f.S can be used to counter her pokes but it's not overly reliable. It does have slightly faster startup than her f.S/2S, but trades will be in her favor. Her 2S also has the ability low profile it.
  • 5HS can be used at a distance in anticipation of 5K to counter it.
  • You can't jump in on her at all if you're coming down within her c.S range. You can air SVV or Kudakero punish it but you'll have to do them very early in your descent. In general it is a terrible idea to challenge this move. Air dashing or spaced out jumps can work if they attempt c.S before you ate within its range.
  • Max range GF can be useful for discouraging ground buttons but she can 5HS it or IAD punish.
  • Pineberry can be knocked back with normals but only do so if she's not able to punish you for it. GF will detonate it, the explosion is pretty big so don't use that unless you're far enough away or YRC.

 

Offense:
  • Wake up timing: 27f face-up, 27f face-down (noticeably slow).
  • Safejump Option-Selects: OS c.S hits backdash and is safe to reversal Judge Better Half.
  • All deep j.S/j.D (JC) fuzzy guards fail.
  • 5K 2nd hit will whiff on crouch hit(? ).

 

Defense/Punishes:
  • Overheads: 6P (23f, -12 on block but special cancellable), 5D (24f, -8 on block).
  • After blocking 6P up close, HSVV is a punish on block if they don't special cancel. Special cancel to Bridal Express loses to HSVV, if they do that string auto-pilot when they can RC. Tyrant Rave also works, and is a bit safer to her cancelling to other specials that would make HSVV whiff.
  • If she's whiffing 5HS over your crouch there are a couple things you can do. CH 2S, CH 2HS, CH 2D, and GV can punish, but keep in mind she can YRC at any time.
  • Unblockable escapes: Reversal SVV will dodge toss and shot, and is safe to explosion, but is punishable by shot YRC. Reversal Blitz Shield toss > 2D will low profile the shot and is safe to explosion, unless they are frame perfect on timing the setup. Reversal Blitz Shield toss > Blitz Shield shot is safe.
  • Dust (-8): f.S/2D on block, dash 5K/c.S on close IB.
  • Dead Angle Attack (-8): 5K/c.S/f.S/2D on block. Can be low profiled by GV.
  • Bridal Express (ground): c.S/WT up close blocked, 5K farther out blocked, safe at max range. IB makes punishes much easier. 6P can counter it from very far distance.
  • Bridal Express (air): 6P/VV/Blitz Shield counters on reaction.
  • Judge Better Half (236236D): CH 6HS as she falls, c.S upon landing.

 

Combo Notes:
  • She is light weight, so landing TO after VV can be more problematic than usual.
  • WT > delay dash j.D timing is very strict.
  • Crouch hit CH 5HS > BB fails.

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Don't have a lot here yet but in general seems like you want to avoid touching the grenade as much as possible so you don't get pressured.

GF doesn't seem entirely useful in neutral since grenade eats right through it.

Note grenade countdown isn't slowed by RCs.

6P counters air Bridal Express pretty cleanly if you react in time. VV always works too.

As discussed recently in gameplay discussion, ground Bridal Express is c.S punishable up close, 5K from farther, and safe from very far on block. You can CH 6P it on the way to you from far away. All punish get easier if you IB of course.

If she whiffs 5HS gun shot over you and keeps mashing, you can safely CH 2D close up, CH 2S farther, and CH 2HS from farthest. Good ones probably won't do that though.

Her only invul move is uppercut super. Easily safejumped and punishable on block/whiff.

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Her reversal Overdrive, Judge Better Half is 3+1 startup. Actually not much room for error in timing a safejump against it so keep that in mind. Her wake-up is a tad slower than normal.

If she's holding Pineberry and you land a normal close enough, you can combo to GF or BR, or 5HS air hit.

Something funny that I don't know exactly how practical it is yet, if you DI while she has Pineberry it expires the timer and she can't avoid exploding. If close enough you can combo with BB or dash attacks after DI. Damage gets scaled significantly but you can get roughly 200 damage approaching corner. Example: c.S 5HS blocked > DI > she explodes > BB combos. Also if she dead angles the hit before DI you dodge it. Something to experiment with maybe, kinda hilarious looking.

You can also RC 5HS or 6HS in a blockstring to make it explode then combo to BB. You get crap damage though so I'd only see that being worth it if it'd kill.

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I've been messing around quite a bit with ways to deal with the UB loops. Some shit probably most people already know. But posting anyway.

 

S VV will dodge the nade, rifle and you'll still have time to block the explosion. Of course El can cancel the stance (Or RC) if she sees you VV'ing trough the meaty and punish you, but you're still forcing her to use 50 tension in one way or another to get another UB going as opposed to doing it meterless. Also blitzing the nade and riot stomping will cause the explosion to whiff. So again she would have to use 50 tension to get any kind of a followup. But I don't see any reason to use this over just S VV, and if it's possible to make the setup even tighter this may not work anyways.

 

If the El player messes up even a bit. You have alot more options. For example you can try blitzing the nade and low profiling the shot with 2D and you can jump away from the explosion.

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Thanks you reminded me to learn escapes myself. Recorded this setup successfully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIMeM2JI0jc

Reversal SVV: As mentioned, it dodges both the toss and the unblockable shot, and you have time to block the explosion after landing. You even have time to jump. Problem is if she had 25% she can easily YRC the unblockable shot if it misses and probably hurt you for this.

Reversal backdash/RS: I get both of these to give pretty much the same result; the toss hits you and combos to the unblockable shot, but after that you can air tech. The explosion won't combo. Looks difficult for her to convert from without RCing the unblockable shot.

Reversal Blitz Shield > GV: I get this to either hit her and at the same time get caught by explosion, and I also get it to just dodge explosion and hit her. I'm guessing it's variance in when I get GV out after doing Blitz Shield, probably want it out asap. This looks ok but might also be susceptible to her YRCing the unblockable shot and blocking/dodging to punish you.

Reversal Blitz Shield > 2D: This looks completely safe, unless by some chance she can get something after YRC unblockable shot, or maybe the slowdown is enough to make the explosion catch you. Doubtful of that, but will try it later. Tofma I'm getting it to work without them messing up, unless I never got this setup perfectly in the first place but pretty sure I have it exactly as that vid shows. You can either block the explosion or jump out. This looks like a safe escape as far as I can tell.

Reversal Blitz Shield > Blitz Shield: Universal escape I believe, but requires a good amount of meter.

Reversal Gold Burst: Other universal escape.

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Reversal blitz 2D won't avoid in time if the setup is tight. It's super precise to get that well though (Took myself well over 40mins of attempts to get it. I'm never recording over it again) so unless you're 100% sure that the El player can consistently get it that well it's good to try.

 

In the case that someone will actually do perfect setups all the time (Really doubtful of this) I'd say reversal S VV is the optimal choice, just to force her to use meter to keep the loop going until she runs out of it. Actually hadn't thought about multiple blitzes so I'll have to fiddle with that.

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Ok good to know. I stopped recording after I got toss > shot to be a blockstring on IB, but sounds like I could've gotten it tighter. I imagine Blitz > GV would still low profile there since it starts at frame 1 but don't like how that looks much anyway.

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It does but I get hit with the nade explosion anyway. Don't know if it might work better if El is farther away (Doesn't bounce back as much from the corner). but maybe you could yrc gv to avoid the whole thing? I won't be having access to the game until next friday so I can't test it atm.

Of course it's likely my recorded setup could be made even tighter. But I really can't imagine people getting it consistently. Theres alot of variables and it's even possible to get the nade toss to otg which will screw up the whole thing. I'd very much recommend stuff like blitz>2D as I'd wager it's probably gonna work against your average El players very often, if not almost everytime. Though I guess they could shoot you early but whatever.

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You can't Yellow Roman Cancel Grand Viper outside of Dragon Install, so that's not an option.

Doing reversal Blitz Shield into another Blitz Shield does seem pretty expensive at first, but 37.5% Tension really doesn't take that much time to build, especially when you take into account the combo you have to take to be put in the unblockable situation in the first place.

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Finding her 2S very annoying, it's giving me issues. It's 8f so pretty fast and trades are ass cause it staggers on CH.

I looked at max range 2S blocked > 5HS punishes, they like to do that I think cause it combos from there. The best thing looks like dash CH 2S after blocking 2S, hits 1 shot of 5HS or mashing shots. She can YRC it though. 2S also cancels to Bridal Express so you'd run into that. Also gatlings to 2D but I wouldn't expect that often at max range cause it won't reach.

I'm guessing it's good to try and get it to whiff then dash f.S whiff punish. And f.S in general to hit it but it just sucks when you trade.

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I'm pretty new to GG, but from what I can tell from picking up both these characters this matchup seems extremely momentum based, and Sol has better tools in neutral.

I kinda want to see these threads cover Sol's general gameplan vs. everybody from round start and especially in neutral, even moreso than being a compendium of "if they do this, do this" options. Must be cause I'm an SF player, lol. That said, I'm going to give it a shot. Please back me up/correct me if I'm wrong!

From round start, Sol has the advantage. El's favorite buttons that threaten from that distance are f.S, 2S, and 5HS. 5HS is duckable, not very fast, and super risky on whiff with no meter. Their f.S range is mostly the same, Sol's is faster. 2S is used if they guess you're going to try to come in low. It doesn't have the range of f.S, and can be stuffed the same way. 

DON'T back off. Sol doesn't benefit from that. There's no reason to retreat from El unless she has the Shotgun out, which is difficult for her to do comfortably in neutral unless you back off in the first place. 

She'll try to scare you off with grenades any chance she gets. High toss can be ran under, low toss jumped over. If she cooks the grenade, making her block anything will make life difficult for her, and encourage her to throw it early, which is better for you. the initial hit does no damage, and uncooked grenades give you plenty of time to do whatever before they explode, so don't be afraid to trade or press buttons on her when she pulls that pin in footsie distance. 

If they whiff more than one 5HS shot (good ones shouldn't, but it happens) it's also a free GV unless they YRC relatively early. 

If you approach her by air, her AA options actually suck outside of c.S range. Airdash early j.S/j.D can be useful to get her blocking, which is what you want. If you're close enough that she can run up c.S you, don't jump in on her. Any aerial approach you use should be done before she returns to neutral, as her air-to-air j.S  is amazing and will generally beat whatever you come at her with (minus VV, of course). Meaty safejumps will eat her alive, and El should be more scared of using Judge Better Half as a reversal than you are of getting hit by it.   

If she gets the Shotty out, stand your ground and try to poke her out the stance. I like 2D and f.S for this. Be reactionary and try not to let her close distance or give her anything to roll under. 

Once you've got her blocking outside of Shotgun stance, stay close and maul her. I particularly like to run 5K > 2S or 2P > 2S and Fafnir. If you get her in the corner it's really hard for El to get a turn if you stay plus while pressuring her. From there it's the run up WT/5K mixup. 

If she gets YOU on the defensive, you're in trouble. As far as I can tell you'll just have to make a good read or wait til she's out of meter, which will probably get you taking a ton of damage or killed before that happens, ANother reason why from round start you want to push as far away from the corner as possible, as she only gets pressure midscreen and at least she'll have to spend a lot of meter to corner carry and get loops on you. 

Hopefully more experienced players than me have more to add, lol.

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I kinda want to see these threads cover Sol's general gameplan vs. everybody from round start and especially in neutral, even moreso than being a compendium of "if they do this, do this" options. Must be cause I'm an SF player, lol. That said, I'm going to give it a shot. Please back me up/correct me if I'm wrong!

That stuff will get added eventually, it's important in any fighter. The reason you see more of just hard data in these threads so far is that it's easily verified in training, the rest takes a lot of time/experience/discussion. And we have a rather sad amount of matchup discussion going on but that's par for the course these days. People are still learning matchups though including myself so it's understandable. But thanks for sharing your own input, it pretty much matches my current knowledge of it.

Some other 5HS shooting over your head punishes are listed in the 2nd post here that can work, but not quite as far out as GV.

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Although I haven't played enough versus El to make a solid game plan on how this match up goes, f.S is your go to for when she starts to use pine berry in block strings. Usually she's always negative when canceling into pine during pressure so it's always good to start poking with f.S > 2S whiff just so you can to swift the momentum in your favor.

Also for a guaranteed punish on Air Bridal Express start out with VV or Blitz for safety, 6P is more likely to trade and will require some practice. Still possible however and should be learned.

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Random somewhat specific things I've noticed in the match:

- In neutral, I dislike trying to win poking wars. I feel like you have to be very evasive in neutral and carefully pick opportunities to go in.

Dashing 2D is good but they can 5K it in anticipation at very low risk. It is pretty much impossible to whiff punish on reaction, but dash brake to get it to whiff then Fafnir, f.S/5HS, or moving in seems good. Maybe 6HS too since for CH possibility.

You can use f.S, but trades with her own f.S and 2S will be in her favor.

Our 2S does not seem useful as a poke, since her 5K and 2S don't extend her hurtbox, and getting hit out of it by f.S sucks ass. Also clashing with stuff means danger time possibility which I honestly wouldn't choose to be in vs Elphelt.

Mixing up a healthy amount of max range GF, dashing 2D, dash brakes, and long dashes to catch backing away seem like the key to me.

- Don't crouch block after blocking f.S unless you're in 2D range (which seems rare). She has IAD j.S which hits your crouch -_-

- You need to bait her S tier back dash. Even if you don't get a punish it helps to move in after her. Be careful throwing something out if she dodged something with it, it has very short duration so she's often at decent advantage.

- Round start I think jumping back is a decent choice. I honestly don't want to be in her f.S range often if I can help it. Kazunoko did it multiple times at NCR, mixing that up with going offensive immediately.

I don't like this match. It's sad being out-gorilla'd.

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Elphelt mod here.
Didn't notice before that the Sol board did some research to deal with her so I'll provide more details on a few things mentionned here.

At round start, fS is actually a very good option. It comes out in 7f and Elphelt's 2S and fS respectively comes out in 8f and 9f. This means that if Elphelt wanted to press any button at the start, you're gonna hit her with a CH. The only way to hit Sol out of it is with 5P like you can see here.
Problem is that you just have nothing to follow with afterwards. Too far for 5P>fS. 5P>5HxN and 5P>214K are pretty bad idea because they won't combo at all and result in punishes.

With 5HxN, they will be blocked and if you were holding 1, will completely whiff. If you notice a 5H mash whiffing, you can whiff punish with GV even from 5H max range due to her increased hurtbox.
With 214K, at this distance, she will be minus and will land exactly before you meaning you can throw punish her.

By the way, those are important things you have to keep in mind in that matchup. If you notice 5H is used and it whiffs because you crouched, you should go for GV ASAP. With 25 tension however, Elphelt can YRC it and punish the GV with 2S. This will result in 2S CH>214K giving her knockdown.

Same thing for 214K or j214K btw. Your best bet against those moves is, if possible, to IB them and throw her out of it. 214K is -5 if done point blank and +7 max range (12 active frames). You need to be in neutral and very far if you want to get +7 which is quite rare or very risky.
During pressure, it's possible with blockstrings like dash 5K>cS>fS>2S>214K to be + on block and she will land outside of throw range. Your only option will be to either reversal or respect (or backdashing but it's dangerous because most Elphelt will gatling 2P>cS. If 2P whiffs due to a backdash, fS will come out and punish it).
However, in this kind of situation, there will be a gap before the 214K. Obviously you can reversal but you will feel really silly if the player didn't cancel into 214K. Your best bet is to just jump out with FD and go back to neutral.

With j214K, it's +10 if it hits the feet and +0 if it hits the top of the head. It tends very often to land in throw range however and is much easier to IB. Like it was mentionned above, you can DP or blitz her. Problem is that a common mixup is j214K YRC>jS/empty 5K/airdash jS>jP>jS.
If the Elphelt player YRC and see you trying to do something, you will be punished. Just blocking it and throwing her is the safest option really.

About her okizeme, keep in mind that the only time where she can really rely on grenade oki is from corner knockdown or air knockdown with jH/jD>j236P>land>Toss.
In situations like Berial ender (Anything into>2D>214K or just 214K), the grenade oki Elphelt players will do is generally 236P>microdash toss>dash 2P/5K.
If you IB the toss, there will be a gap so you can just use VV/Low Blitz/Backdash. It can be risky obviously but if you notice the Elphelt player just doing that, keep in mind you still got this option.

Against Sol however, it's better to go into a 3-way mixup which is generally after a berial ender (delay)>microdash>jump 9
First mixup is a crossup/fake crossup jS that are both safe jumps based on the timing for the microdash.
Second mixup is either safe jump jS/empty 5K/airdash jS
You got a third mixup off airdash jS based on the string you choose. Basically, you can do up to 4 overheads with airdash jS>jP>jP>jS and at any point, you can land and do 5K like airdash jS>jP>jP>5K for instance. Like Raiden mentionned above, she can also do that with an IAD if you're in the corner from anything jump cancelable. There is a noticeable gap however. Your fastest option (unless you're a bot able to input 623H in 1f) is to just blitz.
For the 3-way, you can also blitz the first mixup. For the rest though, you will unfortunately have to guess right.

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@Magaki: For round start, Elph 2S tends to beat Sol 5S. Speed doesn't matter so much, it's the hitbox interaction which allows her 2S to win there.

 

I don't like this character.

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More random info from testing a few things.

 

If you IB her 2D and she cancels it to pull out pineberry, it's a free f.S which explodes her, then air hit 5HS combos so you can do IAD routes. 2D will work too but won't reach as far. This is good to know if they auto pilot pineberry after 2D a lot. It's not on reaction though, so if they jump cancel or bridal express instead you're in trouble. If for whatever reason they don't cancel 2D, f.S will also be a punish.

 

After flash, Genoise (bazooka overdrive) can be GV punished unless you're really far away. She can of course YRC/PRC it, and this won't work so well if she does it after throwing pineberry.

 

On oki, I can't get deep in corner OTG 2K > GF (YRC) to connect, must be her slow wake-up. It's less lenient on her with how deep in corner you can be for it to connect.

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Tested some more random anti-Elphelt stuff.

 

On 2S > 5HS blockstring, I already posted earlier that dash 2S will be a CH punish regardless if they keep shooting or not. They'll have to YRC to prevent getting hit. Realized you can also dash CH 2HS with the same results. This is pretty bad on whiff if they YRC the shot, so unless you can YRC yourself you're gonna get whiff punished. dash CH 2S can work from f.S as well but on IB only, since it's got more blockstun.

 

A common blockstring ender I see is 2D > IAD back > Pineberry, she flies way back and it's almost impossible to hit her. The only thing I could find was IAD j.K which causes the pineberry to detonate and you get a short conversion to VV knockdown. It's easier on IB. This is pretty bad if they don't do this ender, so it's just useful to show that you can punish them for using that every time. Other than that you choose to just run in at her and pressure.

 

On shotgun pressure, is there any reason not to 5K (or 6K+HS to throw roll too) after IBing her shotgun S or HS, provided you're in 1st hit of 5K range? As far as I can tell she can't frame trap then. I guess she can cancel shotgun S to bridal but I doubt that's a common thing. S > pineberry toss seems to be blockstring on IB.

 

Command grab whiff punishes (she takes counter hits):

neutral jump > falling j.S or CH j.D

back jump > airdash j.P

backdash > CH 6HS

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