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skd

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  1. turns out i took that data from midrange spacing, but all of the crossup teleports can actually happen slightly faster given certain spacings, with variance of three frames (this because she doesn't literally teleport, she just travels quickly while invisible + invuln lol) I edited them with the ranges of the crossup frames, A teleport is actually 18-20, B is 21-23, D is 17-19(!) Because the left/right autoguard window is 3f, looking the reappearances, you can actually have literally invisible crossups on frame 20 of D teleport, or frame 21 of A teleport. The reappearance on A teleport likely also has variance depending on range, but in the opposite direction, making the gap tighter. I haven't explicitly tested THAT, but i'd make a very educated guess that the second reorient for A teleport on the earliest crossup is 27f, 26f for a turn on frame 19, and frame 25 for frame 20 crossup, changing the crossup span to 10f, 8f, and 6f. Considering left/right autoguard, you have a 3 frame window to actually make a projectile connect crossup at a minimum, and overshooting it ends up putting them back in autoguard. Either way, none of this seriously matters until CF so :<
  2. Long story short, no. Nine isn't even close to broken. She's a strong character, definitely one of the stronger characters but very much comparable. I wouldn't really put her in top 3, but she's up there. A lot of points of Nine's strength come from mobility and great air to air / air to ground, and general RPS demand on her movement + good conversions. Kunzite is awesome for pressure, and demands a lot of respect from very high in the air at low commitment, rather than just being an overhead. But of course, that helps in it's effectiveness lol. If you think Carl is broken, you're seriously over exaggerating! He's pretty tame compared to some of the earlier top tier character's we've had in the game with excellent neutral control and more severe mixup / momentum with better resource return. I'm not going to use this as basis for my justification rather than an example, but check how Ryuusei lost to RAGNA at KSB. Sure, I will definitely say Ryuusei didn't play so well, but it's a good example of how Carl's approach is actually one of his WEAKEST points. Many characters (Ragna) can definitely (safely) out neutral him, and he's a character who hinges on reward from his offense to offeset that. Theory, anecdotal evidence, footage, blah blah. It's all there. I'll definitely vouch for that angle, Carl's approach and neutral risk is...fine lol. Factor in arcade delay, of course you have something that is a bit bolstered by that, but... Even so, If you think Carl's approach / neutral options are STILL that strong even in that context, then you don't really understand how developed RPS pans out for neutral approaches from both players. But in this case, if you were under the misconception that his neutral was really that strong I can see why you /might/ think that he is excessively strong, but even then, his offense is still not quite the monstrosity that you seem to play it up as. 6C overdrive!!! Whoah!! I don't really get it, lol. Do you even go to tournaments? People thought she was a joke from Day 1. Day 1!!! A ton of people dropped the version in the US because we used console for tournament standard, and japan didn't. If you mean people who comment on youtube videos didn't start bitching until then, that's probably correct, but :> General consensus, again, where. Like, I don't know lmao. If you guys want to talk about competitive viability and stuff then you should be paying more attention to who says what, not just taking what everyone says and thinking of it as equally viable opinions. I guarantee nobody's words worth their weight would say that about her, she had clear flaws and her strengths are STILL not so overbearing. She's definitely got a lot more room for offensive development, but the toolset she has doesn't really make it look like it's going to get out of hand or anything. Jeez. Words!!! Information!!! If anyone wants me to expand on anything, I'll definitely do so but I am just reading a lot of this and really going ???
  3. is there any hint in the wording as to if its the active frames of the throw that are now invuln, or the startup? Or is it just a very broad statement, lol. I can imagine why they'd want to give the active frames invuln, to avoid any ridiculous same frame interactions but if it was applied to startup it would prevent you from dealing with ribs+command throw in certain other useful ways.
  4. note that you cannot buffer a dash from a crouching animation. It is possible to buffer dash momentum and have it take place in 0f (first frame of move startup has dash acceleration applied) but from a crouching animation this won't happen. If you buffer a normal and a dash you will just get the normal. So doing perfectly dashed inputs from crouch takes a delay of a frame, making it a 1f timing since you cannot buffer it. However, I'm pretty sure none of the combos in that video really require you to know this, so this post was more like a "fyi" type of thing. have fun.
  5. I'll steer it away, heres a relevant topic of discussion http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snva1u Questions??! Can you dig it???
  6. Eh, it's very character specific and not many characters actually have the means to combo into EA at the end of their combos without the quick cancel variant. Unless you gain many benefits from passive OD, you will literally be trading your burst to put yourself into AF. This is...pretty detrimental, if anything lol. I have a burst, so I'm going to use it to get my burst back...??? It seems more like spending a resource just to spend it than using it most effectively! For many characters, just having it is a much better choice than using it. Of course, you will need to show you can use it correctly (defensively) to make it a threat, but correctly is pretty tough lol. Thanks to EA base damage, going for EA combos usually ends up doing less damage than your normal combo (with potentially much weaker oki), but you also need to consider the timing and "opportunity cost" of it. You lose the potential to be in AF, and while you are very likely to get your burst back, having your burst in conjunction with AF is definitely something you want to consider as well. And, you've probably given up a good oki setup. You still get burst recovery even after having your EA blocked (while in AF), in a late round situation this sets up for next round very well. On hit, your EA does...twice as much damage, and leaves you with ~30%, which is...acceptable, defensively speaking this scenario is highly favorable and just about as good as it gets when you use your burst. And yes, you can get AF on defense. Whereas if you spent your AF potential earlier using EA / burst at any point before the middle of the round, it would leave you with not much early or mid game utility of that resource in the next round (assuming you know, you actually used your burst and didnt just do EA to get your burst back and do nothing with it), and a much lower likelihood of good position / tradeoff. So, round planning plays a really big part in how you'd want to use that aspect of it, and frankly more often than not I don't think its the right choice. Alternatively, you lose the actual passive threat of OD, and as such your opponent's option cover is going to change. Straight up, if a character does not have many passive benefits from OD (that persist after OD is over) or lack of combos that allow it at the very end / maximize OD application (spending OD for an extra 300-400 damage is NOT worth it, a la noel) then their OD usage is going to take a more passive role. For example, if you were using Relius OD to regenerate your doll meter, thats a great usage and honestly justifies active usage of AF. But for someone like Jin or Noel, it really serves no purpose aside from meager damage increase and actually is detrimental to their overall ensuing risk/reward, especially on offense. If it isn't, then why are you in a rush to build your burst back? Late round situation, one / two hits could mean the round? Yes, in this case it is a good idea. But the implication is you passed up on a better situation earlier, or you just didnt have your burst then (both of which you should try to avoid, but it's good contingency). Otherwise, just take stronger oki from an OD confirm, and don't bother going into the EA if you don't /need/ the recovery, because leaving your options open can potentially cause a much more skewed situation. You can even get AF on defense if it ever comes to that, which would (should) be all the more likely with a better situation from an OD confirm. In the case that goes wrong, you're likely not that far off from getting AF and being able to turn the situation around. It's just about planning and mediating risk/reward!!! The biggest benefit that EA causing AF permits is getting your burst back /on defense/. If you truly need to weaken an offensive situation, you can passively do so with the threat of EA. The risk/reward and implications of how these situations should be structured generally call towards having OD for defensive options. AF with EA on defense is actually so silly. AF with EA on offense is...not really that good but whatever, it's better than nothing (10% base damage is ok, and you get a bonus 2k base damage slapped onto your ea. this doesn't really translate SUPER well into raw damage because there's no min, but its a little bit of an increase in most combos. Plus, your AF doesn't end if they don't die. Yeah!!). tl;dr EA activating AF has it's uses, but it usually doesn't justify how you'd want to apply EA, ESPECIALLY in combos. RE: OD raid - eek, you are comparing one thing that is significantly weaker by design and one that is significantly stronger and saying because your experience with one being weak, you aren't really afraid of the other? The design properties and applications speak for themselves :\ I don't even get why you'd take OD raid as that kind of thing, it doesn't even come close to having that kind of application lol. Either way, the two of them do work rather well /in conjunction/ so!
  7. Yes, it is cool that it functions as a reversal. Of course, it is better than nothing. But the linearity behind the options seriously makes it suffer, if the data from previous versions of the game can be trusted. In prior loketests, there were the "fast held EA" and "normal input EA" functions, and the speeds on both of those allow you to OS them in pretty significant ways, where if they were covered right, it would honestly be more worth it for you to have bursted and given up your active flow potential. EA MIGHT give you seemingly high risk high reward plays, but in actuality because of the resource exchange, it can potentially mean a low risk high reward play on your opponent's end. I'd rather guess DP and get an ensured burst (and get to keep my burst on hit) than try to reversal EA and potentially have it covered (properly) and be out of a burst, and in a position where keeping that AF is not doing me any good. Then you have the hit scenario, where you get your burst back, but where this is in the match is extremely important. This is only one specific angle comparing DP and EA, but it is far different from a vanilla DP by virtue of a lot of it's properties, and frankly I see it becoming much more restricted very quickly~ This stuff is bound to change if the speeds of the options change, because it greatly affects what character can or cant cover. However, The resource exchange and implications of it (even on hit) can be really negative in the long run of the match, so! I'll wait for numbers from the final release to come out before posting anything really nitty gritty about how we should reason out EA's existence as a reversal, but yeah. Frankly how I see it being EFFECTIVELY used is more of a deterrent to cause weaker pressure structure rather than actually disrespecting pressure with it. Well, as I said earlier it isn't really the same as a DP, there is a lot more to consider. Thinking of it like a DP could leave you in a worse place, even if you do end up hitting with it. The price is super steep! EA's don't vary that much in terms of frame data (if at all?), but AFAIK none of them are plus lol, unpunishable =/= plus. It does push back rather far, but I also am unsure if it is ACTUALLY /unpunishable/ given the short amount of time players have had to fight against it. Positioning change DOES add another element to it for sure though! You can OS the startup, pretty much the only possible thing you can do without sacrificing too much. I think the implications of EA and AF are way heavier on the offensive side lol, the game can potentially become much more skewed if you don't manage your resources correctly, especially because these defensive options are STEEP and can potentially come at a high risk (which is how i see EA panning out, lol). Burst removing AF potential, AF + EA is commonly going to be seen in the hands of a player who had momentum, there are a lot of things that point to the resource exchange favoring offensive characters, especially those with good overdrives lol. It is not RCable period, and they are supposedly /just/ uncomboable. PHEW
  8. funny, the same thing about all 3 accounts belonging to the same person occurred to me as well! What a coincidence, must be my imagination. So, on the subject of EA, It seems as if the "fast" version (the hold version following an overdrive flash) is ~10f, 13f at slowest if old frame data can be trusted. Otherwise, it appears to be much slower, like ~24f. Pretty much means you should be able to OS certain pressure against it, making it much higher risk than burst if implemented right. However, the actual presence of it can cause pressure structure that becomes more manageable, so that is a merit in itself. But, there's a guess there that could end up costing you. Well, burst can remove that entire mindgame (and help mitigate potential damage and retain positioning), at the cost of your AF potential. While early EA or burst usage may not be preferable in any case, burning EA too early does not seem as low risk as many people are currently interpreting it to be... I'll try to make a post on burst / af / ea interaction when i have a bit more time.
  9. The latter half of my post was essentially a suggestion of what to do lol, I kind of just brought it to light before talking about it. The issue is that there is just no way around having to be very critical of your play, moreso than the players who end up at jp midlevel. You can't get around the fact that you need to really learn how to teach yourself in order to grow, and thats one of the major differences between here and jp. A lot of them are kind of "inducted" into playing the game relatively well, just because they have an accessible venue for good play. While this is really helpful for growing easily, the fact of the matter is that we don't have an environment with accessible good play. And yeah, maybe there is a bit of talent behind it but it isn't like having the environment is make or break, as a handful of us can go pretty toe to toe with japan. Honestly, the kind of thinking that I am trying to highlight as vital to improve our midlevel is pretty much what every truly strong player, us OR japan has done. Allow me to quote myself a couple of times: "Most of our strong players already have ideas of how the game is supposed to be played, they had the right exposure, maybe they were critical enough to get to that point without as much exposure even if they did come from netplay... the reality of our "accessible" environment for midlevel players is that you have to push yourself through midlevel to high level understanding on your own. You don't have the environment to SHOW you the right things unless you happen to live in a nice place." There really isn't any way around it. As far as things that you should be doing, you should be questioning literally everything you do and the reasoning behind it. Why did I decide to do nothing? Everything is deliberately reasoned at high level. Like, you need to justify everything as well as possible. When I say the midlevel is better in japan, while it CAN be an issue of implementation, they almost always play the game in a more developed way, not necessarily because they are just thinking more, but because they are forced into playing the game in a smarter way to win (because if you play the game smarter, you are going to do better ofc). I don't really know why gauging skill has to come into this. Like, if someone says something you can think about it's worth lol? If you don't know who to listen to (even if you do) take a shot at verifying the information for yourself. You want to understanding the reasoning that goes into those ideas. The reasoning that goes into X inputs, the facts the constitute those reasons. The structure of a knockdown, why you'd want to "respect" in a situation etc etc. It's risk/reward, and ultimately you are just adhere to what is most logical. How do you figure out what is logical? As a very barebones example, i'm gonna press a button in neutral while trying to hit someone, but i can't be sure that it will hit. Justifying what you want to do, maybe by how it works with other tools, maybe because you are not likely to get whiff punished at all if you happened to whiff, you have the life total or resources to support a risk of that level. Figure out the reasons why or why not. Weigh them against eachother. The answers are not hidden or things that people happen to magically stumble upon, it is literally what makes the most sense. Above any opinions there are truths of the game, and ultimately a ton of the developed game boils down to numbers, and I am sorry but developed fighting games are just that, games of numbers. You have 95% of the numbers you need right there in the dustloop wiki. One of the other issues I take that I am attempting to dispel by writing a post like this are misconceptions about the nature of the game and competition, which is why I am so hard on talking about things like netplay never being an acceptable substitute (yes, even a consistent 4 bar will not be the same). Ideas about what people should respect or the practical ranges of human reaction at high level that you should reason around. If your idea of the game is not one where the most justified options weighed against each other and implemented well SHOULD win, then you have a misconception about the nature of the game. Those are things that you also need to make sure you don't have, and those are things that I have explicitly said because frankly, that is a rut that a bunch of people are stuck in. It actually isn't any more than me telling people that if they want to be good, they'll need to /look harder/ and be more logical. Unfortunately there is a bigger hurdle in the US, and that separates our median level and their median level. Thats IT. This is not a PSA about like "everyone get good!". I am saying this is 100% what it takes to get there. I want to stress, again, that figuring out the game is not some kind of obscure path with no direction. The direction is literally "what makes the most sense" and the post is about what you should base your sense around if you want to grow and why. If you have a question about something that you can't / don't want to figure out on your own (or have no idea where to look or how to figure it out) you ask a question like..."what is usually considered reactable?" or "why do people get hit by x if its so slow?" or even "How would I go about figuring out why people get hit by something?". "They just get hit" is a reason, a particularly bad one that if you think is as logically justified as many of the implementations floating around at high level, you are severely underestimating how deep the game is (and your competitors at a high level, lmao) and also you are basing that reason on something of which you have no verifiable basis, or maybe you just came to a ridiculous conclusion. Aka, you are being illogical. Approach it reasonably, and make sure you are taking all necessary and potentially relevant informations into consideration without making bad assumptions. Yes, come up with assumptions, but TEST them and understand JUST what the results mean. Sure, you might even need to question your basic, assumed truths. But the game gives you all the tools to verify and explore what you need to in order to come to a solid, correct understanding. Everyone thinks they do this to some degree, but as i said before, I am saying /do it more/. There are really no other answers. Most of the post was the solution, lol. Yes, if we had all of our players together offline I guarantee you that our midlevel would be (I can't really find a more fitting word) "inducted" into playing the game well, the same way it happens in japan. The leading problem is the nature of what is accessible to us not being rewarding enough in comparison to the real thing (thus, the gap). The only feasible solution is for players who have limited exposure to make more of what they have. That is what I am trying to say to do. Make more of what you have available to you. This is not about explicitly playing the game more, it is about work outside the game. Making more of the play that is accessible to you and why that is important, because there is actually no other answer. I don't really want to respond to this, but I did write about that. "If you practice the right ideas, then by the time you end up playing offline (or the limited amount of time you do get to play offline) you will be that much faster to pick things up. Sure, if you go back to netplay the delay might inhibit what you can do but you have a basis to which you can practice. So what if you cant AA this shitty bullet player who keeps jumping in on you in a 2 bar? Maybe its time to stop playing the bullet player, unless you can get something else from the match. How you practice is important, and really does affect how quickly you'll pick up things given the right opportunities (so travel out when you can, but make the most of it). Imagine, if maybe, just maybe you end up playing someone who is also trying to emulate offline play. Holy crap!! wow!!! Maybe you can get used to certain things that you should be getting used to! This could be another good angle, but unfortunately most people kind of just do what they want to do or try to win without really thinking about it too much, though that is practice in its own way, if you have the right mindset to it. You might lose to things you "shouldn't", but thats ok." I don't care if you try to play like you are playing offline unless you are learning from thinking around an "offline" scope. That is the point of what I wrote, not to play online like it's offline. I am saying mentally approach it in that way, but the purpose is that you are developing your thoughts around that. You can play online and hit people with a lot of stuff that is reactable and then think "hey holy shit that was some netplay ish" and that is good, that is the point. Whether you practice that stuff or not, whether you are trying to win online in that instance, it really doesn't matter. I guarantee there is stuff that you do in play that I'd feel like netplay is augmenting, but you wouldn't have guessed at. The point is that people need to be more critical about that kind of thing if they are going to netplay and try to use it as a learning tool, because if they were just as critical they would be top players offline. No, it doesn't count as trying to improve. At least, I guess it does in some sense. But it alone isn't improving by the way I am talking about, and there is no point if you are trying to just passively improve by "playing like it is offline". alright.
  10. Plus, theres like a standard, then a premium version of the viewlix cab, and...you arent always going to play on the premium one, and even the premium ones dont feel as good as the cabs running aime (xrd/dfc/mb/uni etc) i am this close to learning tsubaki because these character complaints just blow my mind lmao i am going to go into a pretty lengthy post about this... if you don't care about being competitive, or want to take things casually then you really don't need to read this. If you care about winning on netplay for one reason or another, then this isn't for you either. I am writing in reference to midlevel players who have (limited) access to offline play. once again, i am going with this foreword of not wanting to sound like a total douchebag but i will tell you like it is. i am sorry if i hurt any feelings, but this is it. Am i trashing netplay? i dont really know. Sorry if it's the only thing you have access to. But this is what it is. granted, a lot of this comes from my perspective but i've been playing bb for such a long time, i even came from netplay myself! this is a scene x netplay commentary: the ode to the midlevel american (maybe netplayer) by yours truly netplay straight up is disconnected from the US meta. It is TOTALLY irrelevant. Our midlevel that doesn't have access to a good offline scene won't learn online because there is almost nobody to play since the netplay is SO whack, especially in comparison to how we play the game offline over here. Even when people did play eachother often, the game usually doesn't grow past a certain point. Not that it is exclusively a fault of netplay, but rather also has to do with mindsets of players IMO, so ill go into that later. jpn can more feasibly practice online, even though it isnt quite the same as arcade. But this also ends up with jp having a very even distribution of skill level, since the game is much more accessible in general. it is much easier to learn and practice what you learn in arcade or on netplay, or whatever. So you get a lot of surprisingly solid players who come out of nowhere because play can be emulated and practiced widely, arcade or online. Even their midlevel players are sort of shoo'd into playing the game similarly to how they "should" be playing, in part thanks to netplay not being total ass in comparison to their arcade scene. 99% of the time i play online and try to stop someone from doing something bad or structuring pressure poorly, i cannot impart anything that i have understood to be correct and it REALLY SUCKS. Yes, maybe they can get pieces and more general, easier to implement things. Surely, they will get a little bit closer. But there comes a level of reaction and decision making that just isn't possible in delayed environments. Rps changes, risk/reward of situations change, neutral approaches change, the game changes. I can't convey all of those things to you by showing you in play because our proper play isn't accessible, as jpn usually can be shown to a fairly competent level. it ends up with usa being like...top players from select regions (with some outliers), then a huge skill gap between them and midlevel. there is barely any proper exposure between scenes since we are so spread out. i can think of like...2/3 players i'd describe as bridging the gap between high level and mid level lmao. As far as comparative skill level goes between us and jp, speaking for myself, i can pretty confidently say i'm about the same level as their top players, and i personally don't think there's any environmental issue(???) for our current strong players advancing (at least for myself, this is pretty much based on my opinion of how i'd further develop, so it might not be shared haha) but the glaring problems i'm talking about are the midlevel's accessibility to the game and the correct meta. A lot of good can come from this, and having a more even skill distribution and stronger median can help give some people the right push and overall benefits the scene's skill level right? But why does this huge gap from the midlevel to high level exist? It's that disconnect of information, because people can't explicitly "show" what is right since we are so spread out (not to mention our internet is usually whack). My only other option is to "show" people things through something like this, an online forum, general advice, etc. The problem where we are spread too thin is not affecting high level players (as much), it is affecting the midlevel ones. Most of our strong players already have ideas of how the game is supposed to be played, they had the right exposure, maybe they were critical enough to get to that point without as much exposure even if they did come from netplay (hey, fighting games are "supposed" to be played offline, maybe everything im doing is affected by delay wowwww 2015 2009) and they usually end up digging enough for themselves to end up with a strongly supported understanding. This is rather rare, but this is how most of our strong players came about, no matter where they are from. These players would be good with or without anyone to show them the right direction, which is why this isn't an issue for them. Unfortunately, the reality of our "accessible" environment for midlevel players is that you have to push yourself through midlevel to high level understanding on your own. You don't have the environment to SHOW you the right things unless you happen to live in a nice place. Netplay is NOT that place. You will not be able to grind it out online and tell me that you have a good idea about something like tiers or offense or neutral when you likely have no conception of what is "right". Coming from netplay and attending a few TSB's does not make you know what you're talking about either. Your game needs to be developed around that, thats how you get "good". You will be thinking about and doing things more in line with what you should be doing. Japan's midlevel either has the right ideas about the game but cannot implement perfectly, or they implement faulty ideas. Those get ironed out. Our midlevel doesn't have the right ideas, and does not have the environment for most faulty ideas to be corrected. So you NEED to be critical of your own play, or you wont advance. And that is where I am talking about "fault" in the players, IMO midlevel netplayers that only have limited offline access don't think about what is "right" enough. And why can I say that? I was a netplayer, and I had been playing for like a year. From the JUMP i was thinking about the right way to play the game and the effect that delay had on it, so it never proved to be a problem for me outside of ironing out select habits and increasing my understanding of things that I COULDNT know with the inclusion of delay. You will NOT be able to understand how someone reacts or the speed of a reaction outside of a specific scope, a one shot connection, which probably sucks. Just think about the idea that it is harder to tech a throw online because of delay. Where doesnt that apply? It applies to neutral approaches, the kind of guesses that can be made, etc and all of these things have effects on eachother. Netplaying as a tool to improve past midlevel comes with a very big hurdle of needing to use it properly, you can't just go into it like jp can, and that is one of the reasons why our midlevel is less proficient. Its reality. We're in the USA, our netplay is just as "accessible", but less rewarding. Thats what you have to deal with. We have a bigger burden of analysis with our netplay. That causes the level of play to be lower because it is more demanding. Theory around how the game should be played and information from that is what really lets netplay shine. It lets you optimize your limited playtime offline, and thats one of the only ways we can progress with the problem of having less rewarding netplay, IMO. Netplay CAN be used for practice beyond a midlevel (as i said in an earlier post, supplementary to offline learning). if you aren't constantly thinking about how the game should be played offline in your understanding then it's pointless, even if you can't directly get the practice. I got a LOT of practice through netplay while learning, and that was because i approached it from a perspective outside of what i was experiencing. If i did an overhead, i would acknowledge that this overhead is /much harder/ to guard than it should be. Maybe I really just would not use 6B or GH at all under the assumption that it would get blocked offline, and the reason why that was a problem was because the resulting situation was disadvantaged from the pressure situation that i'd give up in order to get the 6b in the first place. I'd just keep my pressure stronger, it would not make sense for me to practice around getting a 6b. I was just wasting my own time. Sure, you won't be able to understand all the nuances that go into these kinds of things from the jump. I mean, I didn't imagine that i could react in 10 fucking frames to wolf brjA until just recently. How offense should be structured, how defense should be structured...you have training mode, offline, test yourselves against things. if I expect this overhead here, why wouldnt my opponent? if i cant tech a throw on reaction, is it impossible or am i just bad (lol). If i get anti aired in a 4 bar but not this 1 bar, why the fuck am i still jumping in? Talk to people about what the realistic approach to a situation would be. Come up with your own answers if you cant implement those, or answers to deal with people who cant implement those. But the basis of these conclusions is the consensus of what developed play is. Keep it logical, keep your reasoning clean. And TALK ABOUT YOUR REASONING. THIS IS HOW YOU MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT FUCKING UP WITH NETPLAY. If you practice the right ideas, then by the time you end up playing offline (or the limited amount of time you do get to play offline) you will be that much faster to pick things up. Things will make more sense to you if you practiced safe offense vs. you having practiced offense which consists of a gauntlet hades / 2d high low 50-50. You will have practiced the right stuff, and be ready to implement those things. Maybe you won't be able to tech throws on reaction right away, or maybe you'll try to avoid the situation instead of dealing with it. Eventually, you need to develop your response to reach a higher level. But it's progress, the right ideas get imparted and develop faster. And surely, when I spit words at my screen they begin to make more sense. Sure, if you go back to netplay the delay might inhibit what you can do but you have a basis to which you can practice. So what if you cant AA this shitty bullet player who keeps jumping in on you in a 2 bar? Maybe its time to stop playing the bullet player, unless you can get something else from the match. How you practice is important, and really does affect how quickly you'll pick up things given the right opportunities (so travel out when you can, but make the most of it). Imagine, if maybe, just maybe you end up playing someone who is also trying to emulate offline play. Holy crap!! wow!!! Maybe you can get used to certain things that you should be getting used to! This could be another good angle, but unfortunately most people kind of just do what they want to do or try to win without really thinking about it too much, though that is practice in its own way, if you have the right mindset to it. You might lose to things you "shouldn't", but thats ok. Netplay match exposure has a major use that isn't very diminished IMO: Developing Adaptive Ability. One of the main things that a lot of HEAVY netplayers are good at is adapting on the fly to what they can or cant do in X frames of delay and formulating ideas that go around that. This kind of thing is really good and while you don't need to adapt to different levels of delay where play is most developed, being able to change it up is a really good thing to practice. Honestly, i am far too stubborn so i never practice this but it really is a great skill you can work on through netplay, even without the right understanding of things. Is the connection shitty enough that I can feasibly hit someone with Ragna 6B 4 times in a row to win? Alright! You just need to make sure that you are thinking about things and actually applying them, haha. Generally getting used to how people react in certain connections and etc etc could be nice too, and give you information. Just, make sure you don't get the wrong idea. Like that your 6B is SOOO good but what happens when you take that away with an opponent who can block it consistently? Are you ready for that? While you can put yourself through a lot of situations, without theorizing your approach properly you can end up practicing the wrong things for an offline environment, so you need to keep your application in check. Sure, this is much better to do offline. But you can do it online too, lol. Just gotta be critical about it. I know. Maybe it feels good to hit someone with your oh so threatening offense but boy does it feel better to totally invalidate a character's tools on defense especially when people think their characters are scary if you really aim to develop your play then it has no place depending on your understanding (do i think this overhead is easily reactable? is this offense stable against players who dont consistently react in under 15f?), just think around it. As far as conveying what the "proper" ideas are and what good play is, that is what I am here for. I am here to talk about reasoning in matches and stuff. That is the most useful thing I can give. All of our top players are accessible, everyone is pretty willing to talk. Just, please, keep an open mind about things. Personal experience over netplay is just that, so please think about it logically. In a nice, condescending tl;dr; THE QUESTION OF WHERE DO WE STAND AS A WHOLE? The game might be accessible to a point to low and midlevel players, but that point is pretty bad. The gap between the average players and the top players are huge. Our most accessible form of play does NOT convey our high level concepts easily, thus (IMO) the huge gap. The only players who really bridge the gaps are the ones who are developing on their own, rather than being shown or taught these things because the usual method of learning that jpn has, we dont after that point. The only real solution to this limiting netplay experience is to be very critical of it. Our strong players are doing just fine, nothing is really preventing us from progressing and the level of play isn't very stagnant...i think. Either way, a higher midlevel would be beneficial...probably. ~~~ In conclusion, just, do what you can. It really doesn't benefit me, I am not writing this with some sort of agenda, i really do mean well. Even if some of what i wrote is pretty judgmental or makes me come off like a dick. It feels like there really hasnt been a lot of progress.
  11. No, just because there's a lack of changes it doesn't mean that there's a detracted focus from there per se. The only difference is they're trying to build upon the current meta of the game rather than take things an entirely new way. I'm sure they're paying a lot of attention to how the game is balanced now more than ever lol.
  12. The state of the us scene as a whole is like...the high level players are all kinda condensed in the corners of the country in their own scenes (ny/nj, pnw, cali too though it's pretty big) and the skill gaps between our top players and our mid level players is REALLY big as a whole. Like, even if you could netplay someone at your level, the netplay is too bad to consider good practice, even at its best, our console standard means the game is just too different online and off. Regardless netplay isn't really an issue for our top level, there are good players in those areas that CAN play offline (whether we do or not is another story haha). Tbh I can't complain about my scene at all, it really doesn't matter that netplay is booty. You just have to approach how you use it very critically, and that is easy for players who already have a proper understanding of the game. In a nutshell, netplay isn't an acceptable competitive substitute in the first place. But that's ok, I don't think it's too important, even if you need to netplay to play people you should be critical about it if you intend to compare yourself to offline play. I started out on netplay too, lol. Nobody should be complaining about the netcode hindering competitive growth because it'll never compare when it counts lol, you always need to approach learning with it thinking about how delay affects the game, because it is drastic. I can write up more about the current state of our scene and netplay and blah blah blah but I'm not sure if this is the thread for it??
  13. yea, most arcade cabs that bb are on come with a bit of lag. their netplay is also MUCH MUCH better, they netplay a lot more than american players (even some of their top players). Top US players rarely netplay in comparison, and if they do it's pretty supplemental to offline learning. Pretty much all meta development and practice happen offline for us. Its a lot easier to practice what you learn in jpn, when you think about just how different their netplay exp is vs their arcade exp. rps doesn't change so drastically, you are taking great, condensed netplay delay and comparing it to cab delay. USA, you have shitty netplay and lagless offline standard, the difference is huge. we do not have access to netplay as a tool to practice when our game barely resembles what we should be playing, lol. Outside of the top players, we have fewer midlevel players playing online as well. tl;dr: They play in arcade (usually delay), they netplay more (delay). Most of US's truly competitive players do not play online, how you got that impression is kind of funny to me.
  14. I'm going to try and kill this ENTIRE discussion and say that there has been private testing in the past, and there is likely private testing right now. and a lot of it is deliberate, so don't worry about it too much. Izayoi...okay. Im going to write this essay and hopefully just kill this discussion because reading it is really giving me a headache. There was a LOT wrong with the character, it was not that she wasn't figured out. There is a lot to talk about in comparing how a character develops on console and in arcade as well. I don't really want to turn this into a full blown discussion, and i dont really want to come off as an asshole but a lot of this is really straightforward, cut and dry. I will tell you like it is. If you think im crazy, or dont want to listen to me, then DO NOT LISTEN to me. I dont want to talk about this forever. 1.0, the character had certain strong tools, but she really came off as incomplete. Did not have all the tools to function, specifically neutral and pressure. 1.1 was a huge jump, she literally went from a low/mid tier character to top tier. Neutral and pressure were heavily augmented. In 1.1 though, why and how she was "top tier" was really "difficult". And the reason why I found her to be so strong was because her neutral and pressure were so dominant at a very very high level of implementation...on console. Characters develop differently based on the environment they play in, yeah. Okay. Reading JP tier lists and character impressions? yeah, okay. Understand that character strength is reflective of the environment. I am a player who always plays in delay free, consistent environments. The beauty of USA's console standard. That is the basis of my analysis, that is my blazblue. You know how Nu is considered so strong there? Whereas if you asked sG (i am pretty sure he would respond this way) about the character's strength, he would probably say she is not quite as strong as they usually convey her to be (definitely still up there, though). So i said all that to say this: The way I "tried" to play that character in 1.1 was driving neutral rps, pressure, and making sure i could mitigate as much risk as possible with good defense. The kind of defense and neutral rps that becomes a bit impractical in any delayed environment. Even then, I wasn't good enough to make it work 100% even on console, but the character potential was there. There was a lot that I didn't get to flesh out with her on pressure, neutral, offense, etc by the time ex came around. The char in 1.1 was honestly so deep. I played her for a year (from 1.0 to 1.1) before I got competent with her to the point where I could play like that practically in tournament. However, that practical high level implementation of the character was very very hard to implement in japan, which is why you really never saw her then. I honestly also feel that my control choice (i play pad) has a lot to do with practical implementation of the character and that kind of play. So, I think a lot of things came together and helped me make that character work. In 1.1, izayoi was NONEXISTENT in japan. Honest to god, izayoi in delay is actually way worse. How every izayoi player i met in japan played the character made sense if you approached the game in the environment they practice in. They also had no clue how i approached certain situations or why as well. This is because we /dont play the same game/. Anyone who played console and had a good understanding of the meta and high level console meta knew that this character was strong. How strong, I wouldn't expect people to know unless they really dug deep and understood her but people saying she was weak in 1.1, shy of exposure (if you used her and said she was bad, you actually pissed me off so much because you were actually just too bad) problems had no clue what they were talking about. But IMO it was excusable, because the character was so fucking hard even on console. Nobody was really gonna put in the time for it, but i saw the potential in the character so i worked at it. And you know, it paid off! Atm, i think her 1.1 incarnation was ~top 3 on console if played optimally. Ill keep this part short. Fast forward to EX. So, japan's impression of the character was not too hot, lol. It makes sense, because for them, the character was...not too hot. So what happened? She got buffed pretty heavily. The new DP and system changes to throw offense were sorta significant, and she got much stronger pressure tools and she became much much faster. A lot of "problems" that she had in 1.1 that /I felt were workable because of where i played/ were not quite so for her over there, and as such they were alleviated. So she became a LOT "easier". You had less of a burden to make up for if you wanted to drive her strengths, if that makes any sense. To me, this ended up shooting her up to like super top tier because a lot of the changes she got were not tailored for where i played her, lol. If you play console (offline) and think this character is not BLATANTLY top tier, i have no hope for you. But in jpn, the buffs they gave her worked in such a way that they consider her pretty strong over there now! But still not quite the same as how i feel, but it makes sense because /WE DONT PLAY THE SAME GAME/. So everyone in this thread is constantly talking about jpn impression jpn blah blah blah, yes you can take a lot of things from them. Yes, there is a lot of useful information to be gathered, yes certain aspects don't change as much, and we can definitely share consensus on a lot of things. But jesus christ lol. If I sound crazy about how i am talking about the character, just watch how dogura played me at evo, the kind of offense he ran. His offensive structure isnt the same as mine (as a result he wastes a lot of pressure opportunities by getting "too greedy" for me, but it's general offense in jp), and honestly developing console meta undermines a lot of what they practice, so i feel like i went in with a home court advantage, so to speak. Hopefully that wraps up all this IZAYOI SUCKED BUT WTF? JAPAN DIDNT KNOW??? CHARACTER UNDEVELOPED? shit, because theres no way they would have known. we dont play the same fucking game. They would have figured her out the exact same way if they played on console. And honestly, this is kind of exceptional because usually there isn't such a fine line that causes such a drastic change, but this is one of those cases. There were when the character came out, and then she fell off really hard. She was whack as fuck. Her neutral was incomplete. This is not her problem, but for the sake of example, say you have a 24f overhead, without ANY LOWS. Your character literally has no lows. That was her neutral and pressure, she could not juxtapose anything properly. her normals were fucking good as hell, but she didnt have any way to implement them. They fixed this in 1.1 with new movement options and increasing ch untech on one of her really important moves (normal mode 2C). Combo routes were fine, but they made them really good in 1.1. i know you said IMO, but im gonna talk about this so we're all on the same page here. This is definitely like, totally backwards lol. CF is a revision of CPEX. the whole meta from CSEX to CP changed because of a...whole bunch of shit. New burst system, no primers, OD, drastic character changes, movement speed changes, gravity on a lot of chars is different, jump heights changed, barrier changed, throw ranges were altered, etc. Characters are MUCH more similar to cpex than CSEX to CP. 80% of the cast can do the exact same combo routes they do now. Active flow is not nearly as big of a deal as most people I see on DL are making it out to be. It does influence a GENERAL approach, yeah, but most of the reasoning that goes into the match uses the same tools. Active flow is one of those tools, even then it is not that big, since it compliments most of the current meta. System changes are the biggest thing, but it's mostly about working with new systems on top of what we already have, with light character changes. Aka, a revision. That's the point of this update being so similar lol. They want to keep the meta in tact. jesus christ please dont let me regret this post edit: im going to clarify why nu is weaker on console. offense is weaker, but overall neutral guesses are much safer and more reactive, and can yield higher reward. doesn't have to play so low commit while being "safe". However, neutral guesses are still neutral guesses (your opponent can also move more accordingly, so the RPS changes a bit), and she does lack a bit in terms of defensive and movement options, so she still suffers from the same weakness. Hello!!!!!!!!!!!
  15. iirc active flow rates depend on situation/character, like relius getting his doll out decreases his active flow rate. different ways of getting active flow (throw tech, ib, using invuln, offensive actions, etc) do contribute different amounts but overall, its kind of just something that...happens, so you can take a general stance on how to utilize it. currently, using OD early and getting your burst back was fairly easy, but now this benefits you from an offensive standpoint, as getting your burst back off an early OD (not 100%) involved wagering some risk/reward (defending, or even getting hit), and if you won the round decisively you'd end up with less burst than your opponent by the start of the next round, lol. but in CF, killing someone quickly off an OD confirm pretty much means you get your burst back by the start of the next round, or you can use your OD to kill them if necessary. Active flow mostly ties into burst management, which is why I stressed the importance on burst recovery over damage boost. You can kind of just feel it out, as "if i play well, ill have more chances to use my burst" because the ways to get it are so flexible. Using your OD early for a good confirm is a good idea because you contribute to your active flow counter, and hopefully maintain an advantaged position. Even if they burst, the burst differential is not only 30%, but you've already chalked up some active flow, meaning you're that much closer to getting into a heavily advantaged position, but more importantly, if you get hit, as long as you can defend well you are likely to get your burst back quickly. But you have to keep in mind where your opponent's active flow is too. If they burst, then just go into active flow and get half of their burst back, it wasn't really worth it to trade bursts, because the chance of you benefiting from the trade is much lower depending on where active flow is. Even if you get into active flow, get OD, and hit them, they get another burst back. You want to make the most of the chances you take and when you do land a hit, you want to either create a situation where you can easily call heavy momentum without burst interfering on that hit, or your next hit (early OD). And OD timers are standardized this time around (4s to 8s in neutral, 2s to 4s midcombo) so doing burst safe combos is pretty hard. Burst has also been buffed to where it's active frames catch some forms of invuln (led ley, maybe izayoi aegis, etc), so they DO want burst to be a good option too. Overall, OD plays a big role in conjunction with active flow. It's honestly pretty easy to just think of it as top player privilege to get more burst atm, lol. But theyre definitely aware of the feelings that go into it and want to change it accordingly, so maybe the mechanic might change a bit by the time the game is released. It definitely just happens if you play well, lol.
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