Star-Demon

So our tourneys are no better than Casuals? Gotchya. If you're trusting what other people are telling you, you are being spoonfed and don't deserve to win because you didn't do anything yourself. Sound familiar? Sounds familiar to me.

If you were right, no one would say a damn thing about Triforce or Finance Fraud, even if everything about Triforce was 100% true. Fact that are in front of us: - Information key to winning - if you want to compete you must keep as much of it to yourself or give out bad information. - Kokonoe is paid DLC and it shows fairly easily that not as many people have her - this is sufficient to showing there's haves and have-nots in this situation - Players insist she can be figured out and we need to do it - they do not intend to volunteer it because doing so hurts both them and us. So yeah, what I say stands. In real life we have regulations. In Videogame communities we may need the same. We're in a situation where we have ot choose whether ot OMGSPOONFEED people or tell them to EAD. This thread has stayed open sufficiently long where I think we should be at least trying to be finding middle ground, and I have no faith we will. The thread will be locked or deleted, and either we'll made a decision, leave it as is, and life will go on.

You know, I don't believe that anymore. Why is that? You have zero reason to do anything but tell everyone to go EAD and go figure it out and do better for their own good, but yours as well. You tell people to GIT GUD, since they need to anyways, and you keep the info to yourself so you can compete and win. Anything else is irrational....unless you got some good reasons for sharing? I'd love to hear it! Part of the argument for not banning her is America sucks and needs to get better. Why would you share/spoonfeed america like that? We've already established that spoonfeeding players is wrong and hurts us err...somehow! Lol! Yes, I think it represents two problems we have right now: one we had before and one that happened after kokonoe was released. That's just my opinion, though. Hence the need for building consensus.

Back in my day, when I was banned I stayed banned until I was unbanned. Anyways, Here's what I think of various arguments so far: Matchup numbers/normals conparisons are so silly and irrelevant to the actual problem that has yet to be agreed upon. The question is if we should ban her yet we've failed to establish any criteria for consideration. Instead, the thread has gone in circles talking about so many details that it forgot what it was trying to do and accomplish. I agree mostly with BK with the proviso that we actively work to understand her as a community. I don't think anyone is actually doing their best to deliver good information/ understanding to others especially in light of the fact you have to buy Kokonoe in order to get any practice against her. Certainly, competitive players will absolutely not share information about kokonoe with others - to me this represents an information disparity in our own community. This isn't considered fair in the real world of money and it shouldn't be considered fair in the world of Sport. This simple fact establishes cause for concern in the competitive side of the game. So anyways - I'll again ask to keep the thread on track: What are the criteria for banning a character? What do we hope to accomplish by banning a character? After we establish those we can argue about if it would work or not. Alternatively, we can discuss ways players can improve and how this community can solve the big problem (kokonoe/noel top 8)(, but I have my doubts we can actually come up with anything actionable. We really do like to stew in our own shit when it comes to this sort of thing.

You are making an argument based on asking for more empirical proof that she needs to be banned but want to defer to a goddamned matchup chart to do that? Stop pls. You also ignored that Eshi was pretty much saying that Japan already hates this right along with us at several levels of play - Ban or no ban, this is most certainly a fine time to discuss banning her. Let me help: What do we expect to accomplish with banning her? Do we really think we can accomplish this for real? What do we expect to accomplish by not banning her? Do we really think we can accomplish this for real? What proof do we require to ban a character?

We banned Macros over paranoia and prognostication. If we ban, Kokonoe, it would be for more than that, I'm sure.

I don't take Jonio's tier list very seriously because I never get to see a full spread of characters whenever I try to watch. The player's guild tier list is interesting but I don't quite understand any reasoning behind it. Baiken and Jam being so downwards and close suggests they have some unfavorable matchups, which doesn't account for their strengths. Justice is top tier, This is a big reversal from last year when she was considered ass - Macro Glitch in Arcades? In fact, this list looks upside down. Now I'm really lost. What happened? Am I even reading this right?

Wait Wait Wait I can GC while being hit?

I think Zidane put Kokonoe's problems best once while I was watching a stream. I forgot what he exactly said, the TL;DR version is that she's in beta. Ban her? I'm not sure. I'd have to consider why we'd ban her in one place or another. If it sends the message that she needs more work, and that message is received, then I think we should ban her. She needs more work. A lot of people are going to look at this thread and say America just sucks, but without presenting some sort of proof that Japan has already figured her out and has the tech and we just don't because we weren't watching them enough (lol), they'll have a hard time brushing this off as America just sucking (which I could talk all day about - have some fucking respect for your own hard work!) People saying we have no perspective on this issue seem to be brushing off the facts or are wearing rose-colored glasses. I don't need to say anymore about that. You want a precedent for a decision? Here's one: We recently banned Macros in Guilty Gear because of Justice and sometimes Baiken, with some otherwise shaky postulations and prognostications that the competitive scene would die / be lolerskates if pad players ran amok in the GG scene cheating. I think it was bullshit and mostly paranoid, but there you have it. It's banned. In the Macro case, it was clear some things were rendered not only too easy, but some things came out that were otherwise not doable and broken and unintended. I could argue Kokonoe's moves and design are broken and unintended, otherwise not in the spirit of comparable and intended things. Finally, If we're going to sit here and say "America sucks GIT GUD", then someone needs to show proof of the tech and the results that show Kokonoe is actually well-designed and balanced provided that tech in places like Japan. Good luck, I'd love to see the tech and get an explanation so I can get out there and start beating her. I'll be waiting. All of the hours we all put into this game, all the studying and work we do, and we have the lack of confidence and self-respect (and respect to each other) to just dump on ourselves in America and call it a day? Why not ban her, then? We all in America obviously suck and are bad so who cares? Ban her, then! PERSONALLY: I don't care anymore that she's broken and unfinished. I'm just gonna do my thing, maybe pop the 800 yen and figure out what little I can - I'm not going to bullshit around, though - the facts are the facts with this character.

I'll lay out the same arguments I made before: - I already have AC+ on PS2. I have no problem playing the game on PS2 anywhere I am. No one is going to take AC+ away from me. No one took away AC+ from the GG community. It's always been there. - The PS3 version was bought for 15 bucks on the assumptions that A: It would be more accessible and B: It was being updated. Neither of those things were done. The only accomplishment on Item A is people can use their current-gen sticks. Whatever. The netplay is frustrating to unbearable. I accidentally bought a PSP version because I had misplaced an earlier release date that was given. I bought the PS2 version. The PSP version, and the PS3 version. No more. I had spent enough. I wanted the value I was promised. I'm glad I have SOME kind of netplay, since it means I get to play the game at all, but goddamn! So it was delayed again - No big deal. I have other things to do - so I'm not sweating any continued (empty) promises. I don't even expect them to patch the Macro Glitch which has caused such a goddamn stink I can't get it out of my fucking clothes. Anyways: If we're going to bring the "Real Players" shit into this thread we might as well delete the entire forum right now so the "real players" can jerk each other off someplace where no one has to see it. What the fuck is a real player, anyways?

Nope. I don't think it's coming out and I have nothing good to say about playing or participating anymore. If it actually happens I'll play for a couple of weeks, so catch me then or message me to play me in AC+. I'll play if you want me to.

I was playing AC+ and just accidentally FRC Youzansen - in a way that it came out. Usually I get an air hop and drop j.P or j.S it SAYS FRC timing 3-4 - 3 you get nothing, 4 you get YZS? I was told I just macro glitched. It always existed? Wow. Looks like I'm banned forever from all GG tourneys until I learn to play the game "the way it's meant to be played." So I am going to learn to do this dirty-ass thing consistantly and get to falling jump P with activated YZS FRC. Sounds good and I wonder how it is in practice.

This isn't Baiken-specific but it still makes me very happy to announce that I can do this, now.