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Myoro

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  1. Myoro

    [CF] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

    Just a lil' update, 214B fatals. It could just be u.214B since that's the one I saw fatal, but it's good news nonetheless.
  2. Keep holdin' yer breath, Act II hasn't come out quite yet. Still I don't think they will do crazy balance changes.
  3. Well as it stands it doesn't seem to have any recovery or start-up. This may be understandable balance wise as, from what we've been told, it replaces her double jump, another vital tool with no real start-up or recovery to speak of. If it does indeed replace her double jump it'll have to be a pretty good movement option if she's banking on keeping up with the cast's movement options. One thing's for sure, she definitely won't be the first or only character to have IOHs if they even are (for all we know moves used during float are all mids with head attribute so they can be AA'd anyway.) Right now there's no telling what she'll be able to do with it or if she's been balanced well or not, so while we can make further observations, there's no real reason to say she should be changed one way or another quite yet. Let's keep our eyes peeled for more details! I'm currently looking for things overlooked in the preview. Also, any ETA on the Izanami character thread? I know it's been like two minutes since the trailer happened, but I'm eager to put all the new info we're gonna get in six days somewhere.
  4. From the trailer it looks like she can get into it relatively low, which made me think her float moves might not be overheads. If float replaces her double jump and she can go into it and cancel it like it's nothing that will mean some pretty crazy empty jump trickery I think. I wonder if she has anti airs that keep their head invuln while in float mode... That'd be potentially hilarious.
  5. So for notation I'm thinking of abbreviating float like we do with abbreviating jump. Stuff like 6A 5B and 3C would become f.6A f.5B and f.3C. Simple enough?
  6. I'm also wondering if that float is duration based or ends when an input is used or a move recovers. If it's duration based that'd potentially be interesting for OS's, as a change in state from floating grounded to aerial would prolly auto-cancel the floating grounded move making it safe, and afterwords she could throw out an aerial that would be made safe upon landing. That tertiary state of being exclusive to her has the potential to let all sorts of nutty interactions happen I think. Can't wait to have more details on it. I'm willing to bet you can air-throw her during her float though. I do wonder about things like Bullet's 41236C on her while she's doing a floating crouching move. As when she gets hit out of her float it'll mean she'll be, in all likeliness, an aerial untech state I think stuff that whiffs crouching will still work, however this is BB and weird things have been known to fly here. Various other questions come to mind, like even if they do not hit high, will float normals be head attribute and whiff on anti-airs? 28th can't come fast enough! 'w'
  7. Impressions...: On paper Izanami is hitting a lot of the flags and buzzwords I associate with a character that will be very powerful. I understand that that doesn't mean jack until we see it in action against real play, but still it has me getting more and more hype for her. I wonder if her ground moves when used in float mode are going to hit high. I imagine it varies from move to move if some in-fact can, but I wonder what kinds of new situations will come from that. I already have some cute ideas about using projectile sprites to hide the float sigil and using 3C or something for an ambiguous high/low. Depending on how it is triggered, time stop is probably going to yield some sick oki shenanigans. (It kinda looked like a counter super in the trailer, but I'm hearing reports it's not??) Regardless, Izanami looks fun to play. Much much more fun than I initially thought Nine looked. Usually that doesn't translate well into fun to fight/block, but as with all things time will tell. For now, sign me up. There we go >_>"
  8. http://sekisen224.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-118.html Changes to HP values. Can anyone confirm these? It states that Tao Amane Bullet Carl and Lambda all enjoyed a 500 HP buff while Jin took a 500 HP nerf.
  9. Myoro

    [CF] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

    UPDATED 4/25/2017 Some further changes. U will be universal changes. U +/- Many many moves have taken damage buffs, but Relius has taken a 10% combo rate nerf to 60%. For full details on damage and proration changes see the bottom of this post. There are a lot of important buffs and nerfs to be noted there that I won't repeat for redundancy's sake so do check it out. U +/- The combo timer has been reduced for N starters, but extended for S starters. Heat gain is now based on damage dealt in combos as well. U + SMP no longer affects combo time. SMP instead cuts the base damage of the special/super when it's used again in the combo to roughly a third. SMP is only applied once, but it affects all further uses of the special in the combo. 1st use = 100% base damage second, 2nd onward = 33% base damage. This affects Distortions as well. Distortions still have minimum damage but that's if their base damage is cut it will only do 33% of that cut base damage. 1st Tedo would do 840 min damage, 2nd onward would do 280 minimum damage U + Normals no longer have SMP, for us this means 4D 2D and 6C have lost SMP. U + EA and AF have been added U +/- Bursts cannot be guard-pointed and they pierce invulnerability frames. Led Ley can no longer burst bait. Burst baits must be spacing based or else must be from rapid or jump cancels. U + Crush trigger has been quickened. Relius can take maximum advantage of it with Ignis out. In the corner Relius is capable of comboing CT>grab as guardcrush state can combo into grab without triggering a chance to throw reject. +To combat combo rate changes many moves have had their base damage/p2 buffed. full list can be found in the tweet located at the bottom. - Ignis takes more time to begin regenerating. + Ignis starts regenerating near instantly in OD + Ignis "stalking mode" persists a shorter amount of time. - 5B has had its actives changed the full move comes out across three frames now. 8 for first third, 9 for second third, and 10 for the last chunk. -2B has gotten a similar treatment. Its actives come out across frames 11~13 now. during frame 12 its hurtbox extends past its hitbox. - 6B launches again and it's been sped up to 10F. However it's lost head invuln, hitstun, and P2. Can't combo into TKj.236C unassisted. Has a lot of recovery, but still jump cancels on block. Has almost no pushback. It's hard to, but it can be combo'd on counter hit. Very very very very situational tool. - j.A has more hurtboxes now. They are located in the 9 direction of the sprite. They're not too obtrusive. + J.B's float has changed to be closer to Relius. On counter hit j.B also floats the foe closer to Relius than before. Easier to confirm. + 2C has less pushback on block +/- 2C's hitstun was sped up. It still launches on the same path it did but does so much faster, this was likely to reduce the amount of time it consumed in combos. +6A has gained 10% bonus proration. It has 97.9 P2 once in a combo. - 6A is almost certainly an S starter now. +/- 6C's float on airhit seems subtly different. + 3C floats differently it almost has no horizontal push whatsoever on hit. The aerial float is also decreased. - 3C's P2 has taken a heavy nerf from 89 to 72. no longer an ideal launcher - 4D floats closer horizontally. +4D has gained 10% bonus proration. it will have 93.5% P2 once in a combo. + j.6D j.2D and j.8D's float the foe further away on counter hit. they can still be followed up pretty easily. The damage of all versions has been brought up to 900 + Lanto (214A) has been changed it now slides the opponent on ground and air hit similar to OD 214A but not quite as extreme. On counter hit it has hard knockdown and can be combo'd from even midscreen. During certain frames of 3C untech non counterhit 214A will also cause hard knockdown and be able to be followed up. + Lanto (214A) also costs less. Summoned (s.214A) has gone from 2000IG to 1000 IG, unsummoned Lanto has gone from 3000 IG to 2000 IG. + Unsummoned Lanto (u.214A) has noticeably less recovery than before for Relius. + 214B fatals. This can be followed up fullscreen with 665B>6C>41236B + Tus (214C) has less pushback on block and hit - Geara Act (CSE~CPE 236D) has been REMOVED + Geara Kaas (BBCF 236D) has been added. More details about that later~! + Summoned Geara Nose (s.214D) has allegedly been altered to time for unblockables better. + Unsummoned Geara Nose (u.214D) has been sped up dramatically. Plus on block and forces crouch. + Gad Leis (41236B) has gotten faster. Although it has taken a P2 nerf and it has more recovery, this is a net buff. Solo grab combos are now possible. 6C>41236B is possible too. This saves a lot of IG in the grand scheme of things. Allowing us to confirm 5C>6C>41236B on crouch, ups our solo combo game dramatically. Allowing us to confirm 5B>6C>41236B ups our punish game dramatically. 41236B is also better as a frametrap, and thus better as a Fatal, due to this speed as well. When catching jump start-up 41236B(2)>6C>41236B is possible even on normal hit. The downside is that late combo we cannot 41236B>3C, making damaging 1000 IG corner combos into 3C>desummon more difficult/extinct. - Lauger and air lauger (236C & j.236C) lost some base hitstun and will let a foe tech at roughly the height they hit them or a little below) +/- Haas (~214A) is emergency techable, however Ignis spawns at whatever height Relius is at. This makes Ignis hit the opponent later into the move allowing Relius and Ignis more time to follow-up. As a result things like j.236C~j.214A>airdash j.B and j.236C~j.214A>3C are possible in the corner! if the opponent is airborne when hit by 236C, you can hit them with the last frames of ~214A and set up a fullscreen 214C oki that cannot be escaped. + Zain (~214C) can combo midscreen allowing for summon in combos. it leaves Ignis in stalking mode which lets you follow-up into 66C>214A to put opponents behind your starting position. - Zain (~214C) cannot wallbound. It has taken a damage and P2 nerf as well. ~214C now costs 2000IG. + CT allegedly lost 4 frames of recovery +/- Duo Bios (236236D) Launches upward on the final hit similar to OD Bio's final hit although less extremely. + Vinum (2363214C) has taken a damage buff. Vinum has also dropped its low property making it win against things like Haku 6B. The changes to damage and the S starter buff lets us get 3K+ from this. + Tedo (632146D) animation quickened, more time to combo afterwords. Tedo has also taken a damage nerf unfortunately. + EA (A+B+C+D while in OD) The reversal Relius never had. a nice addition to Rel's defensive repertoire. Safe on block, not on whiff. It has great range, goes into 2K, or 4K with active flow. With Ignis out you can even pressure an opponent who has successfully blocked it by using 2D. On hit it doesn't give any oki at all, and spaces the opponent far enough away from you to attempt a return to neutral. No minimum damage. Be careful. https://twitter.com/tori_relius_/status/667420880071454720 ^Changes to damage and Proration. Everything is accurate except the P2 values of 6A and 4D. They are 89 and 85 prespectively, but have a 10% bonus proration applied to their first use in a combo. Known details on Geara Kaas: Geara Kaas (236D) is not actually a "command grab." It is an unblockable. If the opponent is in hitstun it will combo them, if the opponent is in blockstun it will unblockable them. It doesn't interact with opponents in aerial states, or those in jump start-up. It prorates only once, so hitting the opponent before Ignis is done with them will actually cut your damage gain, unless the few extra frames of combo time are a must. The OD version is faster travels longer, and deals more hits that do less base damage each. Opponents caught by this move have their hitbox collision removed from the game until they are hit or Ignis is done with them, so you can cross through the opponent while they are grabbed. Ignis leaves the opponent in stagger state once this move completes. Ignis has noticeable recovery after this move is done/she is interrupted. This move has an air version as well it can only be done if Ignis is a certain distance from the ground. above that distance, she will travel horizontally and then grab aerial opponents, not interacting with ground opponents. This version will restand opponents caught by it. below this threshold Ignis will travel diagonally until she reaches the ground and she will then preform the ground version. The base cost is 2000IG, unsummoned and OD cost 4000IG. It has a strikingly similar appearance to 214C so some choose to mix-up between those two on an opponents wake-up. 236D is quite slow costly so it's not an ideal mix-up tool. After Ignis swings/is hit Relius recovers however so it's not actually incredibly easy to punish. The move has deceptively many actives. Even a bit after Ignis has swung her arm she is still grabbing. The real use I've found for 236D lies in the restand and true unblockable qualities. It's possible though expensive to restand opponents with 236D, use non-OD Vinum, knock the opponent out of non-OD Vinum which forces them to block the remaining hits of Vinum, and then use 236D again to reset them. Tech is under development but it's as powerful as it is pricey!
  10. I mean, look at Izayoi's feet. It's prolly Saya... I mean in the trailer Ragna's addressing Saya at that part and Saya talks back too. Plus story wise everyone is going after Saya...
  11. Similarly Rel's EA is useful for getting a crapton of Ignis back. All that extra time in OD while Ignis ain't being used, Vinum is quick to come out and Tedo and Bios use Ignis nullifying her regen, so we could never take advantage of those ones this way. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) our EA places us a good 1/4th of a screen away. I don't know what our optimal situation out of oki is yet, but it looks like a lot of folks are going for Tus/Kasu mix-up and this distance might be good for that... needs more research.
  12. When the time loops came back, so then did the other loops. Bray Brue Kuso Fiction! (Kiddin' of course) So I've heard reports that SMP has been removed from specials and normals and I've heard reports that it's still on specials, just that it only affects damage. Which is true?
  13. A lot of characters lost combo rate and got some pretty important P2 nerfs. I know Rel has. Combine that with combo time being lowered and you have a recipe for low damage. It's day 2 though so I'm sure with a bit of time most people's damage will rise by 200~500 midscreen and 500~1000ish in corner with time.
  14. I wanted to avoid A because of it being a common letter in combos already (5A, 6A, 236A, you know...)
  15. I wonder how we're going to annotate Nine's spells in combos and discussion. I've been giving it some thought, maybe we can call the spells something like [FFF] or [FWI] where F stands for fire W for water and I for wind..? so single fire would be [F] fire + wind would be [FI] and so forth? in situations where there's no elements loaded, something like [N] or [Null] would work. I think we ought to create some kind of naming shorthand so we can talk about her various spells and the various states her drive can be in. Let me know what you all think about this one.
  16. Oh that is very different. I'd no idea. Thanks for the response!
  17. The OD cancel itself is a reason to throw out an OD combo for some characters I think. Using Relius for an example, in a rare instance where I need damage but have no Ignis or meter to call upon for a 236C~214A>22C>2D or 236C>Rapid, 3C>ODc>5B or 2C can act as a substitute to get that 3K~4.5K instead of the mere 1~1.6K of ending in 3C or 236C (As well as the added gains of popping OD for Ignis recovery.) The game's not out yet so I can't attest to the value of doing something like ending combo in EA for getting AF, there would be the drawbacks of losing your burst, although for a much shorter time than usual, and who knows what kind of detriment to oki (I really haven't seen what kind of knockdown or advantage EA's give in general having only really studied the CF Rel footage where none were present, so that's on me. I planned to watch everyone else's gameplay more thoroughly when it finally hit arcades, but for Relius I wanted to observe the directional changes as they happened.) But until the game comes out i'm just brainstorming options it'll give rather than testing or guessing over the effectiveness of said uses really. Indeed, if we could get good damage off of an ODC combo into EA with AF as an additional reward in a situation where otherwise you wouldn't get damage, the question sort of becomes "would you for X amount of damage and Y amount of time with a slight damage bonus, spend Z amount of time burst-less?" I remember OD time being changed for some characters at the very least, (Tao I think got 4 seconds on a raw OD at 100% HP in one of the lokes...) so there's the chance that we can change some less damaging confirms into heavier damaging confirms and put our AF right where we need it. A lot of what tempts me is simply that it lets you activate AF on your terms so as long as it hasn't been wasted already in the match not a single frame doesn't go toward burst regeneration. (I've been told the damage bonus to AF isn't that great unless we're talking EA's.) Again a whole ton of stuff depends on how easy AF is to manipulate I think. If it is a lot more common/easy to control the placement of, then yeah there's really not much point to putting it in combos in most situations. The advantage of having a burst is now more powerful than ever, but I'm not quite willing to just say no with the information I have. RERE: OD Raid -There's a good chance I'm misunderstanding just what's been said about just what EA is like defensively, but it doesn't seem too much different than a safer Tager 720 or Houtenjin out of OD raid to me. I get that it's a invincible move that can be thrown out any time you're on the ground and in OD, but unless you're using OD for the aforementioned resource gain, for stopping the game timer, for an OD raid reversal or during or after an OD combo what other situation is a character going to have the opportunity to use EA in? It's a reversal, it's safe, but it's also something that has to be telegraphed right? Could it not then be whiffed guard-pointed or out-DP'd on reaction? I'll read it over again. I definitely feel like I'm missing something if you're calling it that strong.
  18. The real value of EA seems to be that it activates AF after it connects. This would mean that early OD cancel combos could become less expensive overall because you'd get the burst back insanely quick afterword, however that would mean that the OD cancel combo would have to end just before the OD ended, which if memory serves isn't a lot of time to get much use out of the OD cancel from the higher HP ODc's. (Although I have heard that OD values have been altered in some way or another, so that could be Mori and co. taking account of this..?) Of course having a safe(ish?) reversal option isn't bad. It kinda brings what I'd assumed would be the original use for OD raid to the bulk of the cast. Of course OD raid hasn't been too much of a game stealer in my experience, so similarly I'm not too frightened of the prospect. I think EA's a nice option to have, but the scale of its worth will be dependent on how much damage we can lead into it early match, how effective a reversal it promises to be, and finally how easy it is to activate AF through other means. (I'm still a lil' foggy on the conditions needed to start AF for each character. Last I heard it just sorta came about from "being aggressive" the req's varied for everyone so there was no hard formula given.) Baring in mind that I've yet to experience the game in a meaningful way aside from second hand notes and loke vids, if I can do an OD combo and get AF out without using EA, I feel like it's going to be the right choice in a lotta situations in terms of value. If AF really is something easy to work with and manipulate I don't see much reason to include EA's in a combo, other than at the beginning of a combo for fast burst safe damage for no meter. Definitely something I've gotta ponder more though. Oh that detail about how the bursts have been buffed is interesting too. Ignoring all guard point, invulnerability and armor makes them a much more powerful tool, making bursts require a rapid or some sort of other cancel into block to successfully bait. (Over in Relius land, for the longest time we'd thought Ley had simply been nerfed so it no longer operated as a burst bait...) The fact that burst ends AF is no surprise really, but it basically means that for optimal burst gauge value you'll wanna burst before AF has been gotten or when you've reached the point where you'd never get your burst back anyway. Again, how easy AF is to manipulate plays a big part in how bursts will be best used. On the flip side the hard reads might get easier because players will be looking for economic times to burst. I also wonder if things like catch moves will still function on bursts. They... kinda guardpoint? Bah it's a gray aria. Ether way I'd like to know for certain. Also thanks for the answers! Y'all are the best.
  19. Just makin' sure, but a blocked EA is rapid cancelable right? (Actually how about on hit? an active flow EA is 4K and that's one heckava combo starter if it can be continued into much...)
  20. I'm 99.9% sure they're the same person =/

    1. Calamitus

      Calamitus

      I'm suprised that i was the first to mention it. DL users have infinite patience it seems.

    2. Myoro

      Myoro

      I just didn't catch it. They weren't really posting on topic and my eyes kinda just gloss over when that happens.

       

      When you mentioned it I did a double take though.

  21. I see what he means. Uncannily enough the three of you make the same syntax and grammar errors. This really isn't something we should talk about in gameplay discussion though. So let's not
  22. Nine and Izanami seem like shoe-ins for bosses #1 and #2. I've been trying to guess who #3 is for the longest time. The only thing that seems remotely possible to me is an avatar of the black beast or Mori himself.
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