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Anne

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Posts posted by Anne


  1. She's really not all that difficult, she just plays a bit different from everybody else and requires management. Learn the safejumps and the more basic BnBs and try to move around with her properly, if you can do that then you can go ahead and get rolling.


  2. My favorite part about putting info on character forums was that time we changed forum software and all information archived using outbound links got lost.

    We should probably move video archival to databases, move match use combos to wikis, etc. Slim down on the stickies and open up the forums to talking about shit and keep that information from being eaten by forums.

    The new wiki format works for this, Polka's way of going about it is more or less fine.

    Also the upkeep requirement by mods can be lessened enough so that you could redo the mod systems.


  3. Actually it's a bit different due to Carmine's jump origin. The normal rules of cross up protection should protect against a cross up based on jump origin(very simple way to think about it) until landing. He puts the projectile down on one side, goes to other, then jumps back over. Now the only way to block the projectile is from the original direction right? That's the similarity, it's based on the origin of the move. The difference is that Carmine jumps over and the cross up protection didn't "properly" interact with the projectile hitting based on Carmine's jump origin, and if he hits another button that would hit in the opposite direction of the projectile origin you have to block according to that button. It's a pretty unique case because Carmine doesn't have to land after the jump to create a left/right situation, similar to most other fighters without the level of cross up protect in UNI. The projectile origin interacting with Carmine's placement made the "normal" rules of cross up protection not apply in reference to his jump origin.

    You're right in saying the system change shouldn't affect mix up like Orie's, but it's worth noting the differences in this specific engine exploit and that measures were added to the game to prevent it. It's less about it being slow and more about that type of situation not occurring with her though. It's also worth pointing out that Orie using j.2C like this creates a situation that follows the "normal" rules of cross up protection, and its use as a left/right is fairly minimal in regards to the total situation it creates. It's fairly easy to deal with that aspect of it, especially in regards to the other types of situations that exist.


  4. Like I know you're arguing just to argue and make me upset, but I do need to clarify where you're wrong. There's a large difference between trying to create that cross up situation and protected airdash high/low.

    Can it be a left/right? Totally. Is it a left right 50/50 we were talking about, based on projectiles? No. Are you going to use those options like land 5B/3B in a left/right situation? No. Do the gaps in the strings leave practical room for mitigation using other options and fuzzy defense? Yes. Is the primary reason for that situation hitting based on the left/right mix up? No. Is it completely plausible to react to the air special based on her height after a period of time where the move connects? Yes. Is it a bad thing to do? No. Is it good? Yes. Is it good based on what you're saying? No.

    It's far more likely that somebody is going to block the jump in and then attempt to input a delayed option and get caught by the special move, and the variations between that and 2A are going to do that. The left/right in this scenario also works differently than in the projectile based set ups. It might catch some people sleeping as the left/right, but that's far less likely. We've been talking about left/right 50/50s using projectiles to beat cross up protection in a unique way, in ways that Carmine, Seth, Hilda do very often in the current game. Those are completely unreactable and more or less safe to defensive options we know about. The way those specific types of set ups work have been altered in UNIST and possibly DFCI (same dev, lots of similarities in the core).

    Edit: SKD basically filled in the gaps left by me and Tari and we had a fine discussion about it. I'd just read those again.


  5. Your point? There's a difference in timings there, it's simple. She can't really delay either, I mean all there is to it if she doesn't keep falling you hold 4, if she keeps falling you switch to 3. And again, that's not the type of situation we are describing.

    Edit: DFCI probably has the same cross up properties as UNIST considering how they were updated, it's just that is a different game with much different ways of dealing with it. I wouldn't call it too off topic if you understand better how it works in UNI from the discussion.

    Edit edit: I get why the Orie thing exist, and you don't actually fuzzy block it like that, but it's really not a left/right like that either. There are a few ways to mitigate it I believe and it's not super strong and is reactable as far as I can tell. It's def a much different situation than the ones were talking about mechanic regarding, it's unique in how it will hit you.


  6. You don't react, there's just a point where you can switch your guard and you'll be fine. Again, the delay makes that harder but optimally defending against is actually pretty simple. You're far more likely to get hit in that situation for other reasons than the left/right.

    It's a lot different than the 50/50 where somebody is jumping over you and they can do a really tight cross up without needing to land. You can in theory mitigate it with fuzzy guarding but that is really impractical with how it is now, but might be more practical with the change.


  7. If they did just add left/right autoguard for a number of frames along with the current cross up protect, that would explain what I've been seeing in DFCI, yeah. Would mean the idea would still work in UNI same as in DFCI, but it would be way easier to defend against and way more difficult to apply it as an actual mix up with how characters tend to do it, you'd just fuzzy it. If it does work like that you'd need to create a different type of situation than the tight puddle stuff Carmine was doing before. Idk enough about what Seth can do to comment on that.


  8. There's a bit more it with stuff like character facing and yeah. To cap it off about DFCI, I have seen some sick nasty cross up stuff, cross up protection is broken in every other game I see. I only wanna mention it because it all the traits of cross up protect in UNI were carried between DFC as far as I knew until they were updated. It would make sense considering the implications of how strong it is between games.

    Hmm, maybe DFCI has the same change and the game is just more flexible in how people are exploiting it? Cause it seems to still happen regularly.


  9.  

    I'm not familiar with carmine stuff, but in UNI, as I understand it, you can always block projectiles by pressing away from the projectile. Meaning that if a projectile is behind you, you can block it by holding forward, or by holding backwards.

    On that note, Orie's left/right mixup is not really mixup. In a similar manner, once someone is in the air, you can block by holding 4, even if they cross you up. if they cross you up, you can block by holding 4 OR 6. Therefore the only way you can actually mixup with orie's j2C is by doing it, landing and hitting 2a, or doing j2C>J214B(cross back over to the front). landing and hitting 2a cannot be blocked by holding 4. j2C > j214B can be blocked by holding 4, regardless of whether you end up to the left or right.

    So anything to do with carmine, would have to be something like - projectile hits you because you are holding 6 and carmine is actually in front of you and not behind you - or carmine crosses over and hits you because you are holding 4(now forward).  the bigger the gap between the projectile hitting and whatever hitting after crossing up, the easier it would be to block. In theory. I've never played carmine nor played against carmine.

    A technique exists in UNiEL involving projectiles. If you put a projectile on somebody, cross them up, then cross them back up, cross up protection breaks. If the defender stands up and walks backwards, cross up protection kicks back in, so the character jumping over whiffs a button to trigger proximity blocking so the defender can't walk and that stops that. The same thing exists in DFC, somebody calls an assist and jumps over you, then jumps back over and whiffs a button to break cross up protect and it's a left/right 50/50. It's pretty timing sensitive but is totally easy to do with the right set up. It's really just exploiting the way projectiles are coded to be blocked from what I understand, but it's really weird and murky.

    Carmine would just hit with his capture super, throw the delayed projectile on the ground, run to the other side of you, then jump back over you and it made it work. By making it so you can block facing forward for longer, it makes it hard to keep somebody from walking and gaining cross up protection while still creating that left/right mix up.

    I'm not even gonna consider looking at a full tier list unless I know the name of the player attached, and then it's a moment in time and it's just there to help ask more questions.


  10. I'll share what I know of this matter...
    I haven't read anyone confirming that "hyouri" is totally gone, but comments say that it's more difficult to do now.
    Apparently the side switching happens a little later now. Meaning: Even if the opponent crosses over, you now have more time to block while still facing forward.

    Ah, that makes sense. I wonder how much worse the actual mix up is then.


  11. I was informed the left right nonsense was gone from some people who are usually right and keep up to this, and I haven't seen it even after the usual super set up, so I assumed they were correct. For all I know it could still exist and it's just been limited on how it could be set up? Or I could just be wrong.

    I remember around console launch I thought Hilda was garbage, and a lot of lists had her on lower mid, then after a few months she was upper mid or even pushing up into A tier, then she settled back down in upper mid. Her design is super linear and limited so her placement just ends up being meta dependent.


  12. I saw Eltnum was at least considered 4th, but could do 3rd depending on the matchup. What was the general consensus near the end of UNiEL?

     

    I'm not entirely sure, I don't know enough Japanese to navigate arounf their side of the internet and find things. I just know some general stuff like Wald didn't change much so he moved slightly down, Hyde got better at being Hyde and he hit like a monster truck so he went up, Carmine shot up with all the damage and oki optimization, etc. Console release and the year or so span of time after gave people the chance to just get really good at situations and optimization. That and people just being better at neutral helped, it was funny how a year ago I thought "how do some characters fight these big buttons?" and now I'm seeing players so good at neutral they just blow through them.

    If you want a better answer I can ask around but that's a lot of effort for very little. I'm not too worried about the exact tier list personally, it's just easier to illustrate my point of things go past the surface level or the understandings of a period of time. There's also wonky things I'm not sure how they worked out. Like Vatista in theory land is contender for best character but in actual play she's so difficult and weird it's hard to back that up or explain why her winrates are so poor. We had that happen in Persona with SLab, thought she could be busted but she kept getting blown up, then BKen happened and suddenly 2 of the top players from Japan and America are pushing that character up.

    Also, the wording on saying Eltnum could be 3rd "depending on the MU" makes no sense. Character tier positions relate to the accumulation of their MUs vs the entire cast, not in a singular MU. The wording you used really confuses me.


  13. So like, I'm several weeks late to this discussion, but Merkava is more or less the same character with quality of life buffs. Still seems very strong. He still plays neutral the same way, which was his biggest strength. His pressure is the same, 2B and dash B buffs help make confirms more consistent. Damage is more or less the same, even if it's barely nerfed it's not like he lived and died off damage. I've already seen some new routes dealing more though, so whatever, damage isn't what I'm worried about. Flight works the same, worms got easier to set up, he can still convert the same, etc.

    Good character. It's worth thinking about what made a character good, bad, or even busted and then evaluating if they can still perform the same way. Like Gord for example, the things that made him good still exist, he's probably strong. The things that made him busted were his ability to RPS you on defense with all the invuln and all the low proration, and the grab range was silly in certain situations. He lost that, so he's probably "normalized" along with the rest of the strong characters. Similarly with Carmine, the things that made him good are still there, but the left/right 50/50 nonsense and the explosive damage got taken away, so again he's more "normal" in line with the strength levels of the cast. For a low tier like Seth, I mean, he was already good at murdering people once he got a hit, the low health and inconsistency on confirms really made him hard to perform with. Oh look, they gave him better ways to confirm and health. Neato. He's still really similar though, so I'd expect his power to again be more "normal" in how things work.

    Seems like FB's balance philosophy lately has been to make very minor changes and to try to condense tiers into certain power levels. Like, I'd expect the tiers to look similarly in UNIST to UNiEL with the exception of some swaps and slight bumps up and down. There are a few exceptions (what the hell is going on with Byakuya), but that's the gist. 

    A lot of people might not be aware of this, but the tier list for UNiEL towards the end probably looked way different than what most people think based on the play around console release. It wasn't uncommon to see Eltnum in the #3 slot with Hyde even possibly being in top 5. When the game became optimized and people figured out advanced defense/offense there was some wiggle room in there.


  14. I mean, if somebody wants to make a guide, they'll make a guide and post it and it'll be fine. Fuck it, make a header on the wiki of links to resources that are deemed very helpful/important. It's a bit redundant, but I mean that way people reading the wiki will be able to just find it from there without having to dig through the forum. If it is a forum thread, they'll get linked to the forum where they can post about it.

    I mean I think I've said like everything I've needed to say about the ideal split between the forum/wiki and the best ways to use both.


  15. Zissou's idea on how to handle MU threads is godlike. Implement that for the love of everything and consolidate them in a forum somewhere. The forum will be crowded, but if you stick that super easy navigation tool on the front of it that problem goes away. Just make a MU subforum for each game that should have one.

    Edit: Just make an image that's easier to read, call Dawn or somebody.


  16. I mean for strategy, it's not hard to just say a basic gameplan.

    Like, let's take Millia for example, the wiki should def have a paragraph saying "Millia wants to knock people down, here's how, here's some of her more prominent tools to use in neutral blah". Then have a section for the various ender > oki set ups and the basic idea of how to use them. I'm pretty sure an evernote or thread OP already lists a lot of the general stuff you will use as Millia. There's not much more to discuss on that other than when to use what, but that falls under critical thinking and should be in the forum.

    I really don't feel like that's unreasonable.

    On a tangent to this I also believe this helps people discuss things in a more positive way. Like, people look for answer x for problem y and they just do that forever until they think they have all the answers. Then they spend so much time talking about that, that they never learn how to use the answers and miss out on critical thinking skills and discussion is a never ending loop of rediscovering information. Again, I'd rather just tone down the raw information in discussion and focus the threads on more open ended thinking. Part of that is just me thinking we're doing a disservice to learning players by throwing up all that information in a space where they should really be talking about how to play a fighting game vs another human being.

    The more logical part is that frees up space to breathe and be a little looser in conversation. It also frees up some space to have gen threads. I'm to the point where if there's breathing room and info isn't being buried, I don't mind BS threads that exist as long as they're talking about the game and within the rules.


  17. There's a lot of shit in character subs that should just go on the wiki though. Combos, safejumps, set ups, common strings, general gameplan, etc could go on there. The only thing you'd need to discuss in a thread is the critical thinking stuff, how you approach things, when you want to use those options etc along with MUs.

    Like nobody needs to ask me what my options are when I get a knock down. Anybody can look that up in a video or whatever. Just throw it in the wiki. What I'd like players to talk about or ask is "why would you choose x option over y option in z situation?". That should go in the forum. Any hard info will end up getting buried behind that conversation unless it's stickied, and anything that's hard info that's gonna get stickied should just go on the wiki.

    Again, I just think it makes sense to have things that don't need to be talked over again to be housed in a place they won't get buried by people talking. Things that are going to be continuously talked about like critical thinking and MU development should be in places where it's easy to talk, like the forum.

    You can say combos/set ups/etc aren't "concrete" cause new optimal ones get discovered, but I mean there's not much more to it than "hey here's a new thing we can do for better damage. Oh geez, that sure is more optimal, update the combo list".

    I feel like people keep taking this to extremes when all it really comes down to is that it makes more sense to use the wiki more for what it's good at, and free up the forum to do more of what it's good at.

     


  18. Yeah, exactly what I mean when you say "users interacting with each other". The mods just watch users pick each other apart and squad up. That's really dumb, because the mods are failing the users who are outside the squad who can't be in the discussion on equal terms.

    Why do we need point systems? People already go full on e-peen here over the trophies, I don't want more people trying to justify what they're saying even more because they have some number or color next to their name. You should use your brain and listen to the person who is telling you correct things. If you don't know what the correct things are yet, you should really pay extra attention. I know we want to make it easier to figure out who to listen to, but I'd rather the forum be brought up to the point that's not a worry and try keep people as equal as possible.


  19. I mean, the way it's kind of been spelled out to me is "don't believe anything you read on here unless it was said by a top player or somebody with a red name. Even then, be careful of the red names!"

    I mean I agree we should make it a posting environment where people will post regardless of skill level. Tbh I'd rather just kick out people who are proven wrong and keep being wrong after being corrected. Like, I get if somebody is new they might say some wrong things every once in awhile, but then you have people who are consistently wrong and will fight you to the death if you question it. If that's elitist so be it, but I mean more top players would probably wanna post if they could have a meaningful conversation easier, and more players would feel better to converse without having those other users overwhelm them.

    BB general was real bad about this and earned its reputation that way. If you said something the core of that thread had a problem with, you'd eat shit even if you were right, until our lord and savior top player came in and explained things. We should hold our users to a better standard on just a behavior basis whenever we rework mod policy.

    Tbh I'm proposing to curb user elitism at this point. Again, don't wanna speak for others, but I remember certain people trying to contribute to the conversation and then tearing their hair out because those users would dig into them.


  20. I mean, why try to drag "top players" off twitter when they don't wanna be here? lol

    I get they know things but they're real people with real lives doing what they wanna do. I don't see a point in putting out candy to drag them here when we can just incorporate the things they already use into here. Like Nakkiel answers shit on twitter and askfm when he has time, I don't wanna speak for him but I know he works a lot and that's probably just easier for him to do. That's the gist I get from him anyways.

    The whole "let's rely on top players or super knowledgeable people" shtick is getting old. That's kind of what the site was doing with the mod system and it didn't go over well, so why do it again? Why not work on making it so we don't have to rely on some all seeing god players and try to bring the average quality of the forum up?

    Like I don't think one good player bringing down the wrath of god from time to time balances out the power users causing problems. I'd rather deal with making it so the users who are able to think for themselves have room to grow instead of getting caught in that cycle.


  21. For the record, I don't think forums are dead. Forums do a unique thing twitter can't in condensing things down to common spaces, and it keeps stuff in a controlled environment(we can't moderate twitter) and it can still be sifted through pretty easily. But the tools we've gained through social media and other spaces as time went on do make parts of what we used forums for in the past redundant. I don't see why we don't let the forum and wiki focus on their individual strengths, while we also use some of those other tools. No point in competing with something that does it better. Forums are better to talk in long form about certain things in an organized manner, so I'd like to let that happen here. Twitter is good for passing things around quickly and directly, but it can't do much past that. Docs are good for housing information, but they get lost. Wikis exist purely to retain information and often house links so they don't get lost, so why not let it do that?


  22. Hi, hello, gosh this is weird.

     

    So, I said this over in mod chat but I wanna move it over in here because I want the general users to see my thought process on this. A lot of it has to do with redundancy and why we made the rules more in line with "info dumping".

    So, we have these character subforums, right? They're pretty neat, they house all relevant information for a character. We have this wiki, right? It's pretty neat. It houses all the relevant informa- wait.

    Why do we need both of those things to do the same job? We need a video thread, several MU threads, a combo thread, a set up and oki thread, etc. I guess? When all of those things can be formatted and thrown into the wiki. Because discussion can happen there? Discussion rarely happens there, it's more info dumping. Discussion starts to happen there, the things that aren't added to the OP get buried and lost. Besides, a lot of that discussion happens elsewhere offsite, and can just happen in the character general thread anyways. We end up having to be strict and control the content in those boards because we don't want not so relevant things to bury anything useful. It's an issue that really compounds on itself. I honestly don't give a fuck if you want to talk about your waifu's feet, I just don't want you talking about it next to a thread that is supposed to teach all of my character's oki to the universe.

    So, with that being said, to be quite honest, social media does what the subforums are supposed to do, but it does it better. Evernotes and google docs exist that contain all of that information, reviewed by multiple players sometimes, are easier to read and work on, require less fiddling, and cut out a lot of the forum BS. Why not just take the link to the doc, throw it in the gen thread, discuss it there and spit out on the wiki once it's been decided? You wanna ask a question? People will just go find the ask FM account of the person they think is most fit to answer them, and they can ask it anon with no account, and usually get a better response because that person is more likely to look at twitter than Dustloop. I mean, twitter actually works better for sending short pieces of information because I can do it on my phone (without a 3rd party app or horrid format), and I'm already looking at other shit on twitter anyways. Hell, my phone has a little special ringtone for my twitter and ask that goes off. I get tagged with something with a link to a doc, I peep that doc and learn a thing, then go back to whatever I'm doing. I should probably put that info on the wiki at some point, but I mean I'll do that. The character forum never even needed to be part of the equation.

    From who I've talked to and what I've seen, a lot of users already work like this. I mean, I see it happening in real time on my twitter feed, I even grab Japanese docs I see pop up in their conversations and have people translate them. That works pretty well. So why have a huge info dump subforum as the middle man? We don't need it, a lot of stuff could just fit in single character threads like the UNI forum. That frees up some space and allows breathing room in the gen threads to have some more discussion that doesn't need to be super on point, because I won't have to dig through it later to find one thing, that thing will be on the wiki or in a doc linked somewhere(wiki pages will probably just have a "links" section with good docs crammed into it).

    I'd like the forums to be more of a place for discussion, for people to feel comfortable and talk, without them having to worry about putting what where and burying info or whatever. I know the wiki policy used to be "wiki is general info, forum is deeper info" but that didn't work out. Since the info dump in the forums needs to be preserved, discussion suffers as a consequence. I mean, the majority of users just wanna talk in the gen threads anyways because that's where talking happens instead of just raw ass info. I wanna try to propose an idea to make talking the focus of the forum and make info dumping the focus of the wiki. I don't want an off topic board, but I do want things to be more lax in threads. That's why I wanted to try the idea of the reddit style system or BBS system. Conversations can happen there pretty freely, be disposed of pretty freely, and shit can move around. If the forum can do that though, so be it.

    This also gives relief to the mod problem. There will be fewer mods without huge character subforums, and the mods that are left will have more power and can more easily manage things. It's hard dealing with the 100 head mod monster that fights itself. It also does put more impetus onto users to try and make conversation with others manageable, so I mean they'll need to be on point too. If somebody steps out of line or starts spouting bullshit, mods will need to be pretty strict and just hand out the infraction or ban. At the same time, if it's a not so serious issue, mods can probably gloss over it and pass it up instead of having to start putting the foot down in the thread.

    Anyways, yeah. I'm not saying we need to nuke everything, but it's really worth considering slimming down and focusing on talking, and moving the info dump elsewhere. I hear the idea of users wanting to talk, but it can't exist in the same place as all that information so we should just split them up. That way we can have a nice, good place to store info and the forums can be more about talking and way more open to that happening. The alternative is making Dustloop a raw info dump, no fun allowed zone and tell you to take anything else to social media. That's the direction things moved in, the users didn't like it and the site is now dying :v

     

    Edit: The forum upgraded but Kevin hasn't been able to finish formatting it and making it look nice. Be patient and it will be fixed at some point.

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