VR-Raiden

Yeah I didn't mean comboing 6HS > BR, I meant 6P > delay BR and 6P > delay 5HS > BR (for those it works on). BR is being brought up because we're talking about strength of oki for different knockdown options. I used to think you could, but eventually tested it in AC or +R. If you jump in on someone and hold up to jump, you can still get thrown when you land. To me that means it's impossible to make yourself throw invulnerable the frame you land. I'd be glad if I was wrong though. Yeah there are other ways to punish their throw like those, I wanted to mention that about empty jump options. Like Kikuichimonji said you can air throw their tech. However there are some quirks to this setup that make it a lot weaker than I thought it was initially, at least vs most of the cast. The timing you need to perform GF and the YRC to make the air throw absolutely guaranteed results in GF not connecting if the opponent chose not to tech. In that case GF whiffs as they wake-up and your oki is weaker. So you're still making a read on whether they want to tech or not. Problems also arise on characters with very slow face-up wake-up (Chipp, Sin). So far this is what I've found to be true for everyone except Potemkin and Bedman, likely due to their fat hurtboxes and weight. Fat hitbox allows GF to connect closer up, and heavier weight puts them into wake-up faster after the OTG if they don't tech (allowing YRC instead of RC). Dash > OTG 2K makes GF tend to whiff on them too, so for what I'm talking about it's a walking forward > OTG 2K. Also I've gotten the ideal timing to catch forward and back tech, but not neutral. I think it should be possible to though. Curious if this matches other people's findings with this oki.

Well empty jump VV does get thrown by throw/anti-air OS if they're on point with timing, they can throw you the frame you land. One reason I rarely used it anymore on players doing that well. And BR is a more advantageous knockdown than anything as mentioned. Especially with a very high/far hitting BR (including 5HS before BR in standard ender but can't always do that in max possible damage combos). And by the way I looked briefly at this for high prorated starter like multiple airdash j.P to 1 rep to Fafnir and you get similar advantage to that with walk 6P 5HS BR, no delays iirc, BR hits far out instead of high up. That youtube account shows 6HS ender to every corner combo when many or all he could BR just as well, or adding on a VV as mentioned. Doesn't really make them any less worth watching though, shows tons of optimized (minus ender) character specific routes.

I'd suggest reading the okizeme section in the wiki http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sol_Badguy_(GGXRD)#Offense It should give a good idea. There is some that needs to be updated or expanded on, namely corner oki. I'm planning to have a dedicated oki thread soon and update that. I keep learning of different nuances to it so I'm giving it time. Watching vids of good Sol's would help get an idea of what oki to do when. When in doubt, just go for meaty Gun Flame or safejumps and continue pressure from there.

If you mean in Fafnir > dash 6P > delay 5HS/2HS (JC) > j.D > Kudakero etc, you probably aren't delaying long enough after the 6P. If the opponent and you are too deep in corner the 2nd Kudakero hit whiffs. Need to delay 5HS/2HS so they bounce closer to you when you j.D. I like it particularly in corner, as a check in small gaps to either air throw if they tried jumping out or continue pressure if not. It is somewhat gimmicky if you YRC within throw range though, since you can be thrown out of WT or attacks after the YRC. It's definitely good if you can stop at max WT range though to outrange their throw. Related, this is also true for GF YRC > WT. Only truly strong if you're just outside their throw range. But when in throw range they are limited to that option because GF is on top of them, outside using reversals, DAA, or burst. You could also jump there theoretically and they'll take a CH GF so its risky for them.

Oh, well no actually I think with perfect timing a throw will beat a non-throw-invulnerable meaty within range. Correct me if I'm wrong though.That's what makes safejumps nice, you're in air when doing the meaty so you don't need to worry about that.

First you need to take a character's wake-up timing into account: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=System_Data_(GGXRD) Sol's is pretty standard, his face-up is a bit slower than face-down. Most knockdowns with Sol are face-up so usually that's the one you need to know the timing for, except for 2D knockdown which is face-down. HSVV is 5f so you have to be on point with your timing to safejump it. After a 2D > BR knockdown, talk about a half step forward then forward jump into deep j.S/j.HS while blocking. You can walk forward a different amount of time depending on the character's wake-up timing. Dashing neutral jump is also useful for safejumps, but for learning the timing try walking first. Yes, empty jump stuff is susceptible to being thrown the frame you land. That's why it's not very effective unless they have a high advantage Gun Flame (YRC) on top of them, which is only possible in corner (and even here is it susceptible to being thrown, but the opponent is often less inclined to try it). Corner also gives you the option of spacing yourself outside throw range with empty jump 2K, while still having time to do a meaty safe jump. At midscreen it's difficult to create that scenario and get good rewards off it. If you're timing it so the empty jump low is meaty, it's not hard for the opponent to block since they can tell you don't have time to get a meaty jump-in, you'll have to either meaty upon landing or do an airdash which is susceptible to reversals. The effectiveness of empty jump within throw range depends on how the opponent decides to defend against you're safejump oki. In a lot of higher level matches you'll see the Sol's don't thrown out of it, that's because a lot of times they choose to fuzzy guard/jump in favor of using throw or anti-air/throw option-selects. Against people who don't deal with safejump oki well, you can get away with delay airdash j.S to hit them for attempting a throw without option-selecting it with a fast or invul anti-air normal. If they use anti-air/throw OS, delay airdash j.P can beat some of those since it's faster and Sol's hurtbox moves up, but that typically won't hit crouching. Delay double jump can also allow whiff punishing, but it depends on what attack was used for the throw whiff. Delay airdash > j.VV should beat out pretty much any throw whiff, but risky without meter to RC.

I'd advise watching vids of Machaboo's Sol. He plays very clean and effective, take extra note of his pressure and how/why he lands hits. Sol pressure typically comes in short bursts. There is a lot to it but I think watching it used effectively is the best way to learn. If any specific questions come up feel free to ask.

Finally went and tested WT > delay dash j.D (which would go to falling j.D, Fafnir etc) on the cast, I'd be interested to know if anyone found different results. I think it feels easier on some than others but this is what I got as for who it fails on: Elphelt, Ky, Millia, Zato. Also a kinda burst safe Ground Throw (RC) combo, it's safe up through the Fafnir: Ground Throw (RC) > (delay) forward high jump j.S > j.D |> Fafnir, (Bandit Bringer), dash 6P > (delay) 5HS/2HS (JC) > j.D > Kudakero |> 6P > Bandit Revolver Works on Axl, Bedman, Chipp, Potemkin, Sin, Slayer, Venom, Zato. Works on Faust, Leo, and Sol too, but you need to delay slightly before high jumping. EDIT: Did a big update to 2K and 5K corner starter dustloop routes info and notes

I do 2142147H, but I did have the same problem a lot when messing with it. It's a pretty annoying input, not to mention timing the button press properly to get the height right. I don't have high hopes for it being practical at all for mixups to be honest now. I was able to get a meaty high or meaty empty low, or a low airdash, depending on timing after a corner knockdown. I haven't tried it in matches yet but I'm skeptical.

Another example from the first post of 5HS (HJC) > IAD j.K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a57iw2_Or9I&t=59s also works from a Fafnir > dash f.S near corner (except Faust cause 5HS whiffs on him). It's pretty hard and I still drop often, but I feel like I'm getting better at it. I've only ever gotten it with a high jump cancel. Input I typically do is something like 5HS > 1478956 > j.K. I've heard of doing 36956 to get HJC IAD combos too. Input that during the hitstop of 5HS, if you do it too early you won't get the air dash. It's important for maximizing damage and getting the BR ender for those hits outside corner where dustloop won't reach. Usually, IAD j.P j.HS to VV would be fine, but in some cases that won't reach where j.K does, so I feel it's pretty important.

Yes he can do that, but it depends on the opponent character's backdash what the best option is. 5K won't hit Bedman's for example but f.S/5HS/6HS will. I went through the cast in +R testing that stuff, but haven't gotten to it in Xrd yet. Most are probably the same. As for ones I have gotten to testing in Xrd, I got these to work: Bedman: 4f.S, 4HS, 6HS (all safe to super if timed perfectly, kinda iffy there) Elphelt: 4c.S, 1D (both safe to reversal super) Sin: 4f.S, 4HS, 6HS, TR (beats DP as well as backdash). Also good to know OS backdash vs Sin so you can whiff punish if he did DP. Ramlethal: 4K (safe to reversal super) The notes I had from +R are in +R forums in the character specifics thread, I was thinking of doing something similar for Xrd at some point. Example I had saved of it working with 5K on Faust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=MT0ZjA9qBxY&t=5m10s

I believe I'm delaying the j.P input ever so slightly after inputting the air dash when I get it. also if you don't mind, I put your recent answer to dustloop problems in the first post, since it comes up quite often and that's a good explanation for the common problems.

Cool glad to hear it helps. Question, has anyone been able to land air hit 5HS > IAD j.K without high jump cancelling? I'm curious because I have never landed it without HJC. I can get j.P with a regular JC, but never j.K. I prefer to HJC anyways since it feels easier, but I'm curious if that is actually changing anything or if it's just how I time it when I HJC vs JC. With HJC, both seem easier to me than they were in +R for whatever reason. I get j.P pretty consistently now, and j.K I can land but still miss it sometimes.

I'm gonna make a wiki discussion thread, we can use it to discuss specifically things that could use updating. You mean the falling j.D? The third j.D here is the same timing as falling j.D in usual dustloop. The difference here is you're just immediately jump cancelling the first j.D into a second one, then falling j.D after that second one. http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Movement_(GGXRD)#Jump_Install Basically you input a jump before GV and it allows an extra air option that isn't normally allowed. GV doesn't, but some moves auto Jump Install, like Bandit Revolver, so BR(RC) > airdash works without needing any special inputs for example. 2147S cancels the jump startup immediately into GV, but it keeps the jump stored throughout the combo, allowing the air backdash. c.S (JI) > 5HS > GV etc uses the jump cancel from c.S, which you cancel with 5HS before Sol actually jumps.

Mainly myself and Final Ultima, wrote based on vids and prior knowledge. I wanted to have it mostly done by release. There are surely some parts that could use editing or finishing up, any suggestions are welcome. I haven't gotten to giving it another good look since actually playing yet. btw I like the captions Kaizen lol

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sol_Badguy_(GGXRD)#NeutralCould use some editing maybe, but it's a good start. I got GF YRC > BR to work at a very specific far distance last night, but yeah it's pretty specific. As far as knocking them down into GF. I tried GF YRC > WT in the demo, but hadn't looked at it yet on release. Sounds good, it's way easier to input than it used to be imo. I guess the only escape is gold burst, dead angle, or some invulnerable reversal.

From what I remember testing it briefly, 2S > 6HS can catch jumps on normal block, they have to air FD immediately after jumping to not get hit. I also recall seeing GF YRC > BR, which caught the opponent out of air and brought them into the GF, which allowed followup combos. Works similarly to GF YRC > Fafnir probably, I haven't looked into it yet myself.

I got into looking heavy into corner oki yesterday and know what you mean now. From a typical Kudakero 6P 6HS end, I wasn't able to get a YRC, only RC. When I got YRC it was off a ground hit 6HS knockdown, which results in less time between when you start GF and their hitstun ends than air hit 6HS, so it makes sense. Maybe it works but it's really tight? So if you do end with 6P 6HS, I think the best option is late cancel meaty GF and just take the advantage that gives, like Orrax mentioned. Doing GF feint > GF YRC is ok, but jump in mixup is not as strong there as after a BR knockdown. So I was looking at a way to get better corner oki off standard combos to BR. One that doesn't require you to land in throw range for a 2K 6P to combo. I found that if you do Kudakero 6P delay 5HS BR, it makes BR hit very high and adds pushback and advantage. So you have plenty of time to position yourself outside throw range where an empty neutral jump 2K 6P will combo. You can also do meaty safejump j.S, meaty j.D, late airdash, or empty 2D here. And you can GF YRC to make it stronger. With the usual 6P BR, you can walk back and neutral jump too, but the GF YRC after walking back there is weaker. I tried this from the standard 2K 6P combo and got the high BR hit on everyone but Faust, Sin, Sol, and Slayer. On Ram it can work but feels super tight. I want to document a more detailed oki comparison at some point, maybe in its own thread. But this seems to give the opponent the fewest options for escaping.

Venom and Zato are known to cause problems with Kudakero in highly prorated combos, you can see that it hits a little bit later on them than on others in combos. I'm not sure if these are the only 2 like this, but can definitely confirm that there's an issue on those 2. I'd have to double check, but I remember getting the usual 1 rep to Fafnir to usual ender but it was tight. 1 rep to the dash j.D, falling j.K (JC) j.D Kudakero route definitely works though, and might do more than 229. Still going through this thread updating and adding dmg values.

Sin acts like a medium weight. He doesn't seem to have anything strange for dustloops to me. What specifically is giving you issues?

I was looking at this a couple days ago and noticed you can get better advantage if you max delay cancel the 6HS into GF(YRC) instead of doing 214P before. It gives you slightly stronger mixup after, but didn't test with all wake-up timings to see if that causes any issues yet. So R0B0T made a vid with a nice Zato only fuzzy in corner. dash j.S fuzzy j.K j.S etc. j.K j.S j.D probably gets the best stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoOqRLvbn-w Anyway seeing that made me go and look at fuzzies again because I thought it was weird Zato was hit standing in that. It seems like they changed fuzzies? Because now you can do fuzzy j.S or j.P and combo into VV after easily, since they aren't crouched like they would be in previous GG's. Here are 2 possible combos with fuzzy j.P, j.P is better since they can't IB to avoid blocking it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_53O1v8m7gw Fuzzy j.P works on: AX, RA, SI, SL, SO, VE, ZA Fuzzy j.S works on: all of the above + BE, IN, MI, PO It's gonna be costly if they blocked, but it's easy to confirm off that RC. In corner you get meterless combos but better RC if they blocked. On a related note did they help out Potemkin's hurtbox? I could not for the life of me get fuzzy j.D anymore, and was surprised when I couldn't get fuzzy j.P. Maybe I'm just bad, would be curious if anyone else can get those on him.

Here's a mostly burst safe WT combo: WT, delay j.S > j.K > j.D |> Fafnir, BB, dash 6P > (delay) 5HS/2HS (JC) > j.D > Kudakero |> 6P > BR = 155 on Axl Works on Axl, Potemkin, Sin. It's more strict with timing the first part on Sin, Fafnir tends to whiff him if not timed perfectly. On Ramlethal and Bedman, I'm able to get the first part, but the Fafnir won't connect. Hold downback during the first part, if they burst any hit, you block or 2D under their burst. If they burst after j.D and you put Fafnir in, they whiff over and you can just punish the burst after you recover from Fafnir. You get 100 damage guaranteed before they're able to burst safely (when you BB). Works from a WT on opponent at 2P starting position.

It's not that good, yet. But sure we can try soon. I'm catching up and gonna update threads and maybe make some new ones soon. Matchup threads should be on the way.

Most likely the issue is you aren't hitting the first j.D after 2HS (JC) fast enough, it needs to hit on the way up as soon as possible to give enough time for the falling j.D. It should connect without them falling at all in air after the 2HS. And if trying on Sin, just be concerned with the part in brackets. We need to add dash before the delay j.D option (that option was added for light weights which falling j.K doesn't work on, but need training mode to determine it's real worth).