Magaki
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Posts posted by Magaki
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You will generally buffer jP right after doing jS as it's just not possible to hitconfirm with jS alone.
To be honest, it's same thing as the AA routes really.
jS>jP>jS>djK>jS>delay jH>delay jD is what you will go for most of the time.
If they are too high
jS>jP>jS>djS>delay jH>delay jD
If they are too low
jS>jP>jS>djS>jP>jS>delay jH>delay jD
All should result in knockdown most of the time.
If it's jS from an IAD, then jS>jH will knock them down at IAD height. -
Depends really why you picked her. If it's just for casuals, yeah I guess you can skip them.
If you want to be competitive with a character, mastering everything it can do in order to fully optimize your decisions is kind of a given.
You can win without that but you're definetely missing on an important part of her okizeme. Besides, they aren't really that hard to pull off. Compared to what some characters require like Potemkin's 6K loops, Elphelt is quite easy. -
Hima (VK) vs Souji (AR)
Hima (VK) vs Minami (HI) ---- 2nd match ---- 3rd match ---- 4th match ---- 5th match
Hima (VK) vs Minamo (NA) ---- 2nd match ---- 3rd match ---- 4th match
Hima (VK) vs Minami (HI)
Hima (VK) vs Minamo (NA) ---- 2nd match ---- 3rd match -
Day one CMV By Hima
Doesn't seem like the wolf combo rate nerf is affecting us that much. We have however more time it seems to combo with S starters resulting in more wolf gain. Corner carry this time seems better too though the routes aren't anything new and throw combos look stabler.
Looks like Valk is still sitting strong on his top tier throne and won't retire at all. -
New elphelt tech video made by Alioune:
The combos shown use routes known for being universal so obviously all the ones shown are both practical and recommended.
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Matchups where sniper use is particularly effective:
Very strong: Bedman, Faust, Leo
Interesting for specific situations: Venom, Axl, Elphelt (read on neutral berry plays), Ram (Good against players who abuse sword summon in neutral though 5h and jD are better imo)
Not that useful: Chipp, Millia, Sol, Ky (S stun edge doesn't disappear on hit) , Slayer(dash k mappa cancel to punish sniper stance), Potemkin(Hammerfall Break will tank a hit)
Edit:
Alioune's list
Very strong: Faust Bedman Axl Elphelt Sol Venom
specific situations: Leo Potemkin May Ky Ram
Not that useful : Chipp Sin Millia
A section that I believe should be added or elaborated even further:
Rewards:
On normal sniper shot with no CH you will get no specific properties or additional untech time. Not much you can do with that.
On CH the opponent will be launched upwards for a ton of untechable time. Generally in neutral, that's the main reason why you would want to go into sniper stance as it provides you a lot of time to get in safely and get her game going.
It's possible to combo and get a knockdown from sniper stance alone off CH shot uncharged by doing
CH sniper shot>reload>move cursor close to the ground>sniper shot
Will give you a KD but like you can guess the rewards aren't that great and just getting the CH then getting in is much more efficient especially on characters with poor defensive options like Faust and Venom.
With RRC, sniper shot becomes much more efficient as a CH sniper shot RRC will allow you to dash in and combo for great rewards +oki.
Even non CH sniper rrc can be useful as it will allow you to get in and possibly combo if you're close though it's not that common.
Another section that might be interesting to add:
Slip up:
Sometimes it happens when you guessed wrong and your opponent is getting in. In that case leaving stance and choosing to block to avoid getting punished might be the smartest choice.
If you're not in any recovery but still in sniper stance, whiffing a sniper shot yrc to leave stance and get the slowdown is very useful. In some cases you can even poke out right afterwards with 2S or AA cS if you got dem balls of steel.
Without tension, entering shotgun stance will allow you to block faster than pressing D. You can attempt a YRC>236H too if you're already in recovery due to a reload but if you're doing that on reaction and get a PRC due to being too late, you will end up taking more time to recover due to PRC startup + 236h startup so watch out for that.
Nice and interesting guide. Pinning it. Looking forward to more discussion on that subject.
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Powered SG-H is +5 without reloading but here's the tricky part, you can reload faster with Powered SG-H than with normal SG-H.
To be more specific, Reload is always the same recovery but the window to cancel Powered SG-H happens faster than with normal SG-H. Or at least, that's what it mentionned in the frame data that Kedako provided concerning Elphelt. I need to dig into my computer to find it again so I'll be able to give the right answer after calculating it. That or if I don't find it, will need to run some tests to figure it out.
I'm not surprised the frame data is wrong though. Kedako's frame data excluded, there were 3 other frame datas that had some discrepancies in it. Old time lurkers on the El board probably remember the first one that indicated that 2H was jump cancelable.
If you take a peek at the wiki page though you will notice it's the right frame data (Yeah I know. Kinda ironic that the frame data page itself got misinformations regarding its purpose while the wiki page get it right).
Might be someone who edited it and added incorrect data. Dunno.
I'll look for Kedako's again and take care of it by myself to make sure it's done right this time.
Thanks for notifying me and offering your help though. I appreciate it. -
Which made him godlike in every version before +R, right? Backdashes are such a red herring. Go watch your last online replay and framestep to see how many frames you spend not blocking every time you try to churn out a backdash.
I actually was mostly joking about that but if you would like to talk about it, sure.
First, thing you need to keep in mind is that it's not because a character got moves obviously designed with questionable designs that he's gonna be godlike as his strength will obviously be a matter of synergy with his moveset and his matchups.
Also, it's not because a character isn't broken that you have to ignore decisions made concerning said character's direction with "Ohh but he's shit so who cares". Especially if they could have done something else.
Would you consider that Dog's 2D being unblockable in every versions before +R was a great choice that led to smarter plays ? Something that was actually removed in +R most likely due to corner fS>dog 2D already being a hilarious yet efficient way to wrap up a round that became even better with the puddle getting a hitbox.
Would you also say that Dog being able to attack while you were in blockstun was an interesting idea ?
Would you mention that having an FRC point on Sword 623H was a good idea while neutral and conversions with the swords prior to +R truly weren't that great making it the worse summon ? I sure remember Mitsurugi canceling it almost everytime he ended up with it.
Was Raoh's super and its huge chip damage and range great design too ? Not to mention its rewards on hit either. While its true that prior to +R, instant Raoh combo were either situationnal or required a lot of tension; Raoh himself got a very good tension gain which coupled with Zappa's high tension pulse allowed to get back the tension used to get him quite fast.
And thus, finally, is it smart to give him a backdash that can only be punished on one specific frame ? Speaking of Mitsurugi that I mentionned above, remember how much he loved backdashing like crazy in the corner and punished the opponent afterwards for whiffing a move ?
He sure had and still have quite a lot of very weird design choices that were indeed quite useful prior to +R to win rounds while making your opponent ultra salty. Points that I actually loved to use as I've mained him since #R. Whether I love it or not though, you don't need to be a genius to figure out that they could have chosen to tone down all those options and improve his summons better.
Something that I would have loved to see them do. Which they did in +R. And in that version, it clearly was too much.
And finally, what kind of argument is that ?
"see how many frames you spend not blocking every time you try to churn out a backdash"
As if mashing 44444 was the only way to use a backdash. Ever heard of defensive options like fuzzy backdashes ? Or IB backdash ?
Obviously if you don't use correctly a defensive option or vary them you're gonna get blown up.
Same logic as if you use a character wrong or become too predictable result in you losing hard.
I would also like to point out that even if you do manage to punish his backdash which will require a hard read, you won't even get a counter hit and you will be quite far unless the backdash was done in the corner. And not every character can punish that tensionless and get a knockdown afterwards. Or even get enough damage to make the Zappa player think that backdashing is a very bad idea.
But the worst thing isn't that the backdash only got 1f of punishable recovery but it's a combination of both a VERY FAST backdash and a timing of 1f to punish it.
If it had 25f duration for 24f invul, this would have been different but it isn't.
Also, it's not a backdash that is specific to just one summon like the defensive options the sword and the dog provides but it's UNIVERSAL for ALL HIS MODES.
That means that if you just look at the backdash's frame data itself, you're doing it wrong.
You need to consider that he can also fuzzy jump, mash, DP, DP RC, Super(which had and still got a hilarious pushback while only being -15 meaning not everyone can punish it on block), 6P to beat body attacks/5K to beat feet attacks AND backdash.
All of those are his defensive options. Does he really need that backdash this badly ? Before +R, do you really think that toning it down and improve other points were a decision that was unthinkable for the devs ? -
Johnny's backdash used to be like 11F total and 9F invul right?
Who thought that was a good design?Most likely the same guy who thought that giving Zappa an 11f backdash for 10f invul was a great and fair idea.
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SG-H is -2 without reloading and -1 with it.
Reloading basically just make you recover 1f faster. -
Thanks but the issue concerns links posted with the [ url= ] command or shortened by [ ... ] . In those 2 cases, it's not possible to salvage them (not necessarily true for the former but those are exceptions).
Check the video thread for examples of unsalvageable lnks. -
Elphelt vs I-no appears to be missing.
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About SG-D and shotgun loops:
I would suggest you to read this shotgun loop guide I wrote. Should be more than enough to know exactly what to go for in most situations.
About air routes:
Here's an air combo comparison showing character specifics and the required height.
About standing punishes:
On standing without CH, you generally want to go for cS>fS>2D>214K. With a microdash, you can add a 2S between fS and 2D to get more damage.
2D is generally the last normal you want to use before going into 214K simply because it's one of her most damaging normal and allow to get a slightly better okizeme because 214K will make them float a bit more thanks to 2D.
If it's against Millia, Faust, Potemkin, May or Chipp, you want to do (microdash) cS>2D>air combo instead.
Scroll up to check the optimized combos on them both midscreen and in the corner. -
Links being dead is a big issue caused by the new forum update so nah, it's not you. Link isn't salvageable either sadly.
And no, it's neither optimal nor the new BnB in japan.
Optimal conversion into shotgun loop is:
214K RC>dash 236H>Powered SG-H>(Walk shotgun loop or SG-S link if combo was short before the RC)
Other combo from there you can go for is UB setup.
...>214K RC>(dash) delay 2H>cS>hjSPSD>j236P>jKH>(2P toss>236S>UB shot)
As a rule of thumb, 214K has to be the fourth hit or less to make it work.
Being the fifth hit works too but it's not universal in that case. -
Concerning the video links, it looks like recent ones are still salvageable if they were timestamped.
Copy/pasting an exampe from the Elphelt video thread to show some weird changes:
Collapsed: vs Chipp Zanuff :Collapsed: vs Chipp Zanuff :
About the video links:
If it wasn't timestamped WITH the[u r l="link"]"Name" [/u r l],
It will link to the page it was posted on.
First link shows just that.If it was timestamped with the command indicated above, it will rather look like:
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiLzM9yGf38&t=4m50s"So just keeping the part between the " " will fix it. Though, that's some very specific particularities.
About the [collapse] command:
So [collapse] command that was quite useful is gone. And so is [collapse="name"].
However, [collapse] commands that were used before doesn't work anymore but [collapse="name"] does.
But it's kinda weird.If you click on "show" in the Elphelt video thread
, it will work just fine.
But if you copy/paste it, it will stay as it is when you copied it. Meaning if you copied shrunk, it won't show its content and vice versa.
Or at least, that's what happens to me and you can check whether it does the same to you or not with the example above.
Also, pretty sure the broken picture above the avatar is supposed to represent whether it's staff, regular member, etc.
The supposed picture is actually on the profile so maybe it wasn't properly linked yet.
Definetely would prefer to have that over the big red Moderator name though.
Copy/pasting more stuff I've noticed:
-Can't preview posts anymore it seems. Used that feature a lot so it's quite annoying.
-For some reasons, certain letters changed size. Dunno the correct english term but basically I used the [SS] notification to indicate a side swap but for some reason, it became [sS].
-Green color on some posts I've made is gone ? Red and Blue still there but Green definetely gone yep.
-Put some texts in itallic before but now it's back to normal.
-[table] not working. Any known alternative ?
-Top left option (It's called Source now) that allowed to see the whole post in text form was quite handy before but now, it removes spaces and transform the post into a huge chunk of text.
Edit:
glitches if you use more than one in a post ?
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I tested in training mode by double tapping H like you did to check if it could be some kind of bug but I still get Powered SG-H everytime.
Pretty sure you just ended up not delaying enough and did SG-H. That's the only explanation I can think of. -
You mean you do the second Powered SG-H but it doesn't wallstick ?
There are 2 SG-H for 4 possible results:
SG-H and Powered SG-H
If SG-H hits close, it will knockdown.
If you hit with it far, it's considered to be a normal hit.
If Powered SG-H hits close in the corner, you get a wallstick.
If it hits far, you get a knockdown.
So, for your problem, there are 2 explanations:
Either you're too far and you did Powered SG-H resulting in the far version which means no wallstick.
Or you just did normal SG-H because you pressed H too soon.
There is a notable difference in the visual aspect between both SG-H and Powered SG-H so you should be able to figure it out easily. -
Different post for a different combo and subject.
How much damage and tension gain could possibly be achieved in 1.1 after a corner/near corner throw RC is a recurring topic on the Elphelt skype group so I ran some tests to see the maximum we can get with it. Optimal tension gain + damage combo is:
Throw RC>dash 236H>[Powered SG-H>46H>walk slightly]x3>Powered SG-S>214K>[Powered SG-H>46H>walk slightly]x3>SG-S>[sG-H>46H]x5 (207 dmg, 50% tension used, ~48% tension gained back)
Without the SG-S link though, rewards are far from being as good as with it:
Throw RC>dash 236H>[Powered SG-H>46H>walk slightly]x5>SG-S>[sG-H>46H]x5 (191 dmg, 50% tension ued, ~20% tension gained back)
Finally, without walk shotgun loop and just basic loop:
Throw RC>dash 236H> [Powered SG-H>46H>]x3>SG-S>[sG-H>46H]x5 (182 dmg, 50% tension used, ~10% tension gained back)
PS: You can get even more by adding a 214K after any SG-S that hits the opponent quite high. Becomes more complicated though as the maximum height that determines whether a character gets hit by the close or far version of Powered SG-H or SG-H is character specific so it's better to stick with universal combos. -
Found an anti-Faust tech guys.
Basically, if he's close to the corner, after a 2D it's possible to do:
...>2D>jS>djKSD>j236P>jSH
Which is an UB setup like you can guess.
There are 3 situations where you can pull it off.
Crouching confirm:
cS>fS>2H(1)>2D>jS>djKSD>j236P>jSH 177 dmg
If you need more confirm, it's possible to also do something like:
2P>cS>fS>2H(1)>2D>jS>djKSD>j236P>jKH 128 dmg
Make sure to only hit once with 2H as it makes the combo MUCH more stable.
I recommend learning that and abusing it as even if you don't want to go for UB, it still deals great damage.
Standing confirm:
2P>2D>jS>djKSD>j236P>jKH 110 damage
2P can be replaced by 2K, 5K or 2S
If you add a microdash, you can add one more 2P/2K/5K
2S CH confirm
It's possible to do 2S CH>microdash 2P>2D>jS>djKSD>j236P>jKH
Thing however is that if the opponent is staggering at level 2 or above, they will recovery in time to block 2P.
Though, technically, if they can recovery that fast, it's impossible to link anything after 2S CH. Only choice is to do 2S>5H>214K or 2S>5Hx5 so it might not really be an issue that big. Also pretty tough to even react in time and at least reach stagger level 1
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Optimized tensionless 2D>aircombo character specific route:
Faust:
Midscreen: cS>fS>2H>2D>jSPSPS>djKSHD 179 dmg
Corner: cS>fS>2H>2D>jSPSHD>microdash fS>5Hx5 193 dmg
May:
Midscreen: cS>fS>2H>2D>jKSPS>djKSHD 184 dmg
Corner: cS>fS>2H>2D>jSH 151 dmg (Can still get a safe jump afterwards)
Chipp:
Midscreen: cS>fS>2H>2D>jKSPS>djKSHD 225 dmg
Corner: cS>fS>2H>2D>jSH 184 dmg (Can still get a safe jump afterwards)
Millia:
Midscreen: cS>fS>2H>2D>jPSPS>djKSHD 202 dmg
Corner: Impossiburu
Pot:
Midscreen: cS>fS>2H>2D>jKSPS>djKSHD 162 dmg
Corner: cS>fS>2H>2D>jKSPHD>fS>5Hx5 168 dmg
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You can definetely play GG on pad with no problem yeah. Character that is comparatively much easier to play on stick than on pad is Zato due to him having to often hold 2 or 3 buttons while manipulating the shadow which is quite obnoxious on pad (Still possible to play him on pad obviously but comfort is definetely a factor when it comes to appreciating a character).
Some people though mentionned that Elphelt's shogun loops and perfect rifle reload were much easier on pad which makes sense due to the 46 motion.
Point is: Just use whatever you like the most.
As for your neutral options, seems like you mostly need to work more on your fundamentals. Based on your avatar, I suppose that you main Margaret that got very specific and unusual neutral options while Elphelt is basic though, much more versatile than her.
Lemme give you a few tips that you should learn and try to add in your game:
-The S button is Elphelt's most important one in neutral. fS is a great poke that comes out in 9f and is attack level 3 (Most are level 2 in GG). cS is a great anti-air with a massive hitbox that will beat anything done above your head 95% of the time.
2S is one of the best counter poke in the game and it staggers on CH for a while allowing you to win most trades.jS is an air normal that is amazing with a great hitbox and is one of the reasons why Elphelt's air game is so scary. It also is as fast as a jab (7f) with a nice recovery.
Learn first how to correctly use her S buttons and then you can start with the other ones. 5H, 6H, jD etc are great normals but you can easily be punished for using them in wrong situations while it's much more complicated for S normals.
-Against zoners, you need to keep in mind that you don't have that many situations where a projectile will cover both the ground and the air and those same projectiles tend to have dangerous recovery on whiff.
An easy mindgame you can go for would be either:
Dash>fS/2S poke
Or
Dash>jump>falling jS/jH
Picking Ky as an example, if he planned to zone with fS or Stunedge(236S), he will be whiff punished by dash>jump.
If he planned to be passive, observe or go for a risky option, he will have to deal the fS/2S being blocked and having him on the defensive thanks to Elphelt's numerous cancel options.
Obviously, this is not foolproof and there are ways to blow you up that are all matchup dependent. For instance, no Ky can't just zone Elphelt and play safe due to her numerous options to blow that up. Examples include well-spaced 5H, grenade toss, 2H, 2S, Rifle, and even risker approaches like air Bridal or shotgun rolls.
Generally, if you stumble into a situation or a character that require more than fundamentals to deal with, just ask for help in the matchup sections.
-Like jak mentionned, studying and/or copying a top player that you like or fit your style is a great option that can allow you to improve particularly fast. Just pick some paper and a pen and go watch some videos.
Saw an interesting punish ? Take some notes.
Saw a particular neutral option ? Write it down.
Saw something weird ? Scribble it down.
Once you're done with that, just go in training mode and try it out. Maybe you will be able to realize something you never did before or improve what caught your interest even further. Either way, this will definetely allow you to step up your game.
There is a video thread too(That isn't updated. Yes I know, I'm a terrible mod.) if you're looking for specific sets/players.
Thankfully, Elphelt is quite versatile and our top JP players illustrate that by showing off completely different playstyles. Whether it's Fumo, Sharon, Koichi or Isa, they are all worth watching and provide interesting ways to play her differently while still getting results nonetheless.
There is also Dei (Not DIE-CHAN. They are 2 completely different person. Dei that is also written as Day.) that is the top ranked Elphelt at the moment. Maybe he doesn't do well with tournament pressure but so far based on the footage we got, his Elphelt doesn't seem that great compared to the 4 other people I mentionned.
Finally, when I'm both free and motivated for long study sessions, I sometimes make posts with small commentaries to explain whether the match is worth watching or not. Mainly to allow people who don't have that much time to watch interesting matches or point out things that people might have missed.
Here's an example
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w5C punish non-CH combo I use is
w5C>w236A>2C>6B>delay 5B>2C>tkj214B>6C>5B>2C>wjB>wjC>wj236A>wj236C>wj236B>3D>DjC>(632146D) 3978 (5002)
~35% wolf gauge used without Sturm.
You get back all the wolf gauge required during the human part though so as long as you got enough to do w5C>w236A, you can always pull it off.
w5C starter + hitconfirm into jC>(Sturm) ender
w5C>6D>wjA>w5C>w236A>2C>6B>delay 5B>2C>tkj214B>5B>2C>wjB>wjC>wj236A>wj236C>wj236B>3D>DjC>(632146D) 3619 (4643)
w5C>3D1C>w236A>2C>6B>delay 5B>2C>tkj214B>5B>2C>wjB>wjC>wj236A>wj236C>wj236B>3D>DjC>(632146D) 4204 (5228)
Adding one more w5C to optimize damage result in 4462 without the Sturm.
Most optimized wolf regen combo with wolf N starter I know:
w5C>w236A>2C>6B(1)>236C>236A>5B>2C>tkj214B>6C>3C>236B 3324
Gives back 50%+ wolf gauge so use that if you can't kill and want to keep the vortex going.
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Ehhh, if the guy who replied truly consider that the grenade is an auto-win option, I don't think you should really bother giving any thoughts to whatever he says.
But yeah, Elphelt is versatile and she can turn any mistake into huge rewards. She's also potent both on beginner and high level plays so obviously, a lot of people hate her.
But hey, that's the FGC anyway. People saying shit and hating (No need for a reason sometimes) is the most common activity so no matter who you will play, you will always end up against a guy hating your character whether you like it or not.
To be honest, I met a ton of people both offline and online who cursed her every round but no one ever refused to play though.
Anyway, if you still plan to main her, you did a great choice. jak d ripr asked at some point whether she was worth learning so reading the following posts might clear some worries you might have.
[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!
in Guilty Room
Posted · Report reply
PS3 and PS4 Rev are both up on the JP PSN now.