Amadeous

Nah, I think we have enough Axl and Dizzy players around to keep that from happening at least.

Brett's suggestion would be fine with me, so long as everyone is relatively educated about the glitch. Here's some points I want to make about my argument (banning macros for Justice and arguably Baiken, letting it rock for other characters): -It affects the least number of players. -Players that are affected can learn to play without using macros to FRC. -Using the Negative Edge Glitch with the macro is a minimal impact to high level play (regarding frame 1 reversals, linking combos, etc); It's not a true 1 frame as timing is still involved for the directional input, along with the decision (in the case of a reversal) being made. -Many players that join tournaments would have no idea why and would not understand why macros are banned, alienating them from tournament play. -It is unfair to Justice (and maybe Baiken) players. However, it's unfair to more players to ban macros across the board. -It sets a precedence of debating on what is "too strong" or affects the game too much if more uses for the macro glitch are found. And that's the points I can think of re: banning macro use for specific characters. I'm gonna drop out of this thread for a bit and think things out a bit more, but I'm going to stick with this proposal.

Okay, you can mash 214 during a blockstring while holding macros to call out any lows. I'll just throw out lows that recover fast enough or use mids and highs in my blockstring. Mashing out frame-perfect reversals is not a matter of execution, it's a matter of making a decision. Even if there's some perfect player out there that can mash Volcanic Viper any time the opponent leaves a gap, guess what, it's his opponent's fault if he loses to that; they should've been baiting the DP. As for people arguing that using the macro glitch to make combos and links easier to do: so fucking what? All these things you list like Grab -> Gamma Blade, these are things players already do with consistency. 1F links are nothing new in fighting games. So I ask why is it such an unfair advantage that they're made easier? It's not like landing that 1F link in a combo (especially Guilty Gear) automatically wins you the match. If you want to try to use the macro glitch to do 1F special links easier go ahead! I'll be assuming most players grind training mode enough where they can do that anyway so nothing changes to me! And like I said earlier; A character-specific ban should obviously only be put in place if that character's communities agree to it. If Baiken and Justice communities say "Hey uh if you're gonna ban macros for us then we'd rather not play" or something, then fine! We look at banning macros across the board OR not banning them at all, and put a softban on them for those characters. And considering a softban has been on macros for years judging by some of the responses in this topic, that isn't anything new. P.S.: Honest question, just trying to make sure. I've been to a lot of majors in the past 2 years or so, and I know I'm new to the GG scene. How many people who are arguing "macros need to be banned" have actually gone to a tournament outside of their scene in the past couple years? I know this mentality is a regional thing, but I can say I've never seen a tournament held in the MW to ban macros, and I'm pretty sure the EC doesn't either. So why is this a big deal that macros should have never been unbanned?

So far the only reason I've seen for banning macros globally in this thread is "because it's not that way on arcades and it gives people who use them an unfair advantage." Well, on pad (or modded sticks with a smaller throw) it's easier to block Eddie "unblockables" because there's less travel time between 1 and 4. Clearly we need to ban all pads and modded sticks; it's an unfair advantage after all! And it's not even like the arcades! How shameful. What 4r5 said is right, what Dusk Thanatos said is right, what Digital Watches said is right, what shtkn said is right, what I've been saying is right. Banning macros is a ridiculous out-of-date idea perpetuated by people who don't even know how they work. If macros are really a problem with this glitch, WE'VE ALL AGREED it's only a problem with Justice and ARGUABLY with Baiken, and so it's not a big deal to agree not to let players use a macro when playing one of those two characters. Also; as a counterpoint to "macros are unfair because you only press one button instead of three": How do you expect to negative edge off an FRC? It's damn near impossible to do Baiken's Instant Overhead Yosanzen FRC -> Tatami without negative edging the Tatami input, something that's MUCH HARDER to do when you're using a macro. Anything else done this way (negative edging a special directly after using a macro) is harder as well. So uh...how, again, are macros magically easy mode buttons for people? And since when does being able to FRC easier make you good at Guilty Gear? I thought you would be good at the game because you could make good decisions, had good fundamentals, could read situations well...all those sorts of things that make fighting games 2 player games.

I still feel like it wouldn't be that hard to enforce a character-specific macro ban. Character select -> they pick Justice -> make sure they don't have macros mapped... If they pick a problem character they don't map macros. Anyone else is no big deal. Considering most players check buttons before a match anyway it's not like this would really interfere with tournaments. Not seeing why this makes it too hard and we have to ban macros for everyone or not ban them at all.

Kakarocks showed up in this last batch of A-Cho, spent a long time on the cab and really kicked some ass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O7Gs-Bpdpc

Apparently it's plinking SB and FD. Yes, apparently this works. No, I don't know why. Anyway, my vote is still towards "Ban macros for Justice players" (or perhaps just using the glitch in this way, as this is much more obvious); any other problem issues can be dealt with as they become apparent.

I see this thrown out a lot but I've never seen any actual data verify this. A while ago I had Circuitous run the game on an emulator using frame advance to test how much delay there was for a macro; we found there wasn't any sort of "macro delay" at all. Pressing the macro button does exactly the same thing as pressing 3 buttons at once, there's no added input delay or such. Unless there's a line of code or some other test proving otherwise, I'm not believing the "Macros have delay" myth I've seen for so many years. Onto the actual discussion; I feel that "until now" is misleading. As it's been pointed out, this glitch has existed since PS2 GG, and plenty of tournaments were run without macros being banned. Are you saying it's only an issue now because a certain character can make use of it to an extent where it would affect high level play? As Watches pointed out, it's perfectly doable on stick without a macro, which beyond "filling the screen with projectiles" doesn't do much for Justice. Which, beyond looking intimidating, I haven't had the chance to fight a Justice that uses it so I can't say if it really breaks the character. Again, I'm pushing for a middle ground. Banning macros across the board for everyone is silly when only one, ARGUABLY two characters can abuse them to make a difference in actual play. For anyone that uses macros and plays one of the 23 other characters in the game, it's ridiculous. Also: To anyone saying "macros are just a crutch, learn how to play the game without them"...execution is subjective. I can tell you for a fact that I can't hit Jam's 236P FRC on a pad without a macro, yet I have a friend of mine who also plays pad, and can hit the FRC on it and on Bandit Revolver just fine without macros. He didn't grind them out in training mode, he can just do some things easier than I can. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of who it does affect.

Recorded a set of myself v Shinobi in GGACR. If anyone could help me with what I need to work on, tips with the matchup against Ky, etc, I'd appreciate it.

Went ahead and tested against all characters, hitconfirming from 2D and 6HH into 236D, since some character magically make it whiff by being too low. For characters that don't get hit by 2D 236D, use 2D 236SK 236D, and for characters that don't get hit by 6HH 236D, use 6H 236D. A "O" denotes they can be hit by 2D/6HH 236D. An "X" denotes the opposite. Collapsed: Hitconfirming into 236D Table: [table] [/td][td]2D 236D6HH 236D SOL BADGUYOO KY KISKEXX MAYOO EDDIEOX TESTAMENTOO BAIKENOX VENOMXO ROBO-KYXX ORDER-SOLOO BRIDGETOO FAUSTOO POTEMKINOO JUSTICEOO I-NOOO A.B.AXO JOHNNYOX MILLIA RAGEOO DIZZYXO SLAYEROO ANJI MITOOO JAM KURADOBERIOO ZAPPAOO CHIPP ZANUFFOO KLIFF UNDERSNOO AOL LOWOO [/table]

The only real changes were to FBPB afaik. The invul was extended by 2 frames so it's sure to come out no matter what. Charged Ryujin has always been 1-9 invul, but due to it being used whenever you want now it's a bit more relevant. That might be why you're feeling it?

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Also, I'm maintaining my stance of "ban macros for characters that can abuse a macro glitch". If we find that Baiken and Justice are extremely powerful with the glitch, and the Baiken and Justice communities understand and agree, I think we should just ban the using macros with those characters. No reason to punish every player that uses macros just because some characters they don't use can abuse it. That's stupid. Edit: Also, I did some testing in training mode. Justice doing multiple NB like that is possible without macro; it's the same situation as Bridget's old Yo-Yo recall glitch. If you release and press the button within 1 frame, Justice will fire another NB without detonating the first. Same as how Buri could hold the Yo-Yo in place by tapping the H button really fast. Edit 2: Went ahead and recorded a vid of what I meant: I use the pause button cause I'm on pad, but it should be doable on stick with fast enough fingers. Not gonna say if this is evidence for/against banning macros, but it is some cool Justice tech that I hadn't seen before:

I do want to note that "mashing around" the input is still not the same as a reversal timed input. Yes, inputting the button every frame helps obviously, but you still have to complete the input on reversal timing. Easier for wakeups and reversals out of blockstrings maybe, but for Baiken's Guard Cancels, you would still need to buffer the Guard Cancel. For these types of situations, it's making things good players already do consistently, easier. If they're abusing the glitch to mash out reversal Volcanic Viper? Treat it like you would treat any VV happy Sol...block and punish. A Baiken that loves to do GCs? As you said, you only do it during specific blockstrings, and you still need to buffer Sakura to make it a guaranteed hit. Otherwise the opponent can RC, jump cancel, etc, bait it out and punish her. Now for things such as "inputs on frame 1 of match" or "making 1f links to special moves easier in combos" or maybe Burst Cancelling with Jam, that can be arguable. At the very least, it mostly only affects Baiken, everyone else is training wheels. Macro ban for Baiken players? Maybe.

Not gonna lie, my first reaction to seeing this was, "I wonder if I can use this to make Burst Cancelling with Jam easier?" I'm a pad player, so the prospect of Burst Cancelling (Parry -> Burst -> FD cancel) is intimidating to me, but with this glitch it sounds like it'd be pretty easy to pull off. But granted, that feels more like making a high level technique DOABLE on pad, much less making it easy. Maybe I'm exaggerating the difficulty of a Burst Cancel on pad, but it is definitely easier on stick. 'Course, if it came down to "don't be a shithead and abuse this glitch" or "don't use button macros", I'd much rather just do the former. Especially since I can't practice using the glitch in training mode, I don't think I could trust it. Wonder why Riot Stamp (and thusly the K button) takes priority over Gun Flame Feint (thusly the P button) though. That's...backwards.

Is that "order" reading right to left? Cause Japan and all. Also regarding Kliff being really low: maybe it's a matchup thing? Does Kliff have many very bad or uphill matchups?

Yo Team Jam let's go

Woooo

Has anyone seen JP players use 6H > 236S~H in combos more often? I've seen it done a few times by Karun and KA2 but I can't remember what videos they're in. I've attempted to do it myself a number of times but it's finicky and I don't know how to continue the combo.

Generally using 623D is best for the end of a combo or just used for mix-up. As a point of reference, doing a wall loop with 623D starter is about 120 damage with knockdown at the end of it, so it really kills damage output. 214D doesn't kill it as hard but it does notably reduce damage, and it also means you can't use the D Gekirin later in the combo to extend it. Generally I think it'd be better just to perform 2D 236SK 236D. We've been doing it for years in AC anyway, so it's not a big deal. Speaking of, I'm going to look into doing fS TK 236K 236D combos. Last time I tried it seemed to be the same combos would do about 30 extra damage iirc, which would mean IF you can hitconfirm and do that it's more dangerous...but fS 236D is free and doesn't whiff on shorties so that's fun.

Circ posting via Amadeous. Hi. Yeah c.S > Heat and c.S > f.S > Heat doesn't work now there. It doesn't seem to work in general anymore, just doing it off simple AA confirms, so maybe something was wrong in the frame data? It claims 1 active frame in AC but I've seen the hitboxes and that doesn't add up... Anyway, 6P is a better option, but of course difficult to time. j.S > j.D gives knockdown and is consistent across the board, so when in doubt just do that. To test stagger reduction, generally Slip Recovery Level 2 is considered comparable to good human reactions, Level 3 is perfectly optimal, Level Max is boss AI. Combos off 6K... well, if you really want an interesting combo, there's 6K > 2D > HFB FRC 5K > stuff. FAB does it! You probably won't. Dust combos, you can do 5D homing jump FD j.S, land 2S > Heat for a basic impossible dust option, maybe get c.S > f.S in there depending on how good your timing is. 5D homing jump j.H > j.H > j.H > APB also works. Okay Amadeous here, and I'm going back to playing Jam now.

BnBs/Character Specific Hitconfirms NO CARDS/NO METER Close hit with a normal (6P, 5K, cS, etc) > 5H (3 hits) > 6H, 6P > 5H (3 hits) > 6H, 5K > 2D > 22x Your basic ground string. Builds good damage and meter. Needs to be close to start. Some characters like Ky and I-No you can do another rep. Others like May are hard to rep. Launcher (low jS, 236S~H, CH 236S~S, TK 214K, etc), fS > JC > jS > jP > jS > JC > jD (2 hits) > 214K Basic air ender. Has issues on Ky and Robo-Ky because of how thin they can be. Launcher (low jS, 236S~H, CH 236S~S, TK 214K, etc), fS > JC > jK > jD (2 hits) > 214K, 5P > JC > jS > jP > jS > JC > jD (2 hits) > 214K Works on anyone when you carry them to the corner with the first 214K. On Potemkin it's doable midscreen. Throw, SJC > jD (2 hits) > 214K Basic jump combo from a grab. Doesn't work on lightweights. Throw, SJC > jS > jH > j2K Basic jump combo from a grab, for lightweights. Replace j2K with 236P for throw reset gimmicks. 3 CARDS cS > fS > 236D, 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 214D, cS > 2H (1 hit) > 623D, 22x Works on everyone but ABA. 6H after 236D can only be done if they're low to the ground. Some characters are harder to get the full loop. cS > fS > 236D, 6H > H, 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236S~H, SJ j.S > j.H > 236K > 214D, land 623D Better corner combo than the above BnB, but you need height off the wallstick. Doesn't work on Ky/Robo-Ky/Axl, hard to do on Sol/HOS. On heavyweights and Faust you need to use 2 hits of 2H. cS > fS > 236D, 6H, cS > 2H (1 Hit) > 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 214D, cS > 2H (1 hit) > 623D, 22x ABA specific combo of the above. Does roughly 200 damage and builds almost as much meter as the non-specific version. cS > fS > 236D, SJ > jS > jH > 236K > 214D, 623D, 22x Universal combo for when they're too high on the stick to catch with 6H. Doing 623D immediately after 214D in the corner makes it possible to put you in the corner behind them, setting up for a Gacho-like mixup. AA j.S JC j. H > 236K > 236D delay 623D, 236S~H, c.S JC j.S > j.P > j.S JC j.H > 236K > 214D Combo for when you get a hitconfirm very high up. Can also land and do the 623D if you're too close to the ground, just make sure you hit with just the last kick if possible Throw, SJ > jS > 623D, dash > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H > 236D, SJ > jH > 214D > 22x Excellent corner carry from a throw, universal on all cast. Possible to drop the initial jS on medium and heavyweights for easier knockdown. Example video on lightweights. Be sure to space 214D to be one hit for knockdown. Throw, 214D, dash 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H > 236D, 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 623D Throw combo that's doable midscreen or corner, but character specific. Works on all cast except Sol, Faust, Justice, and all Lightweight characters. 5D > SJ > FD > jH, 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H > 236D, 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 214D, (land) 623D, 22x Basic Impossible Dust combo. Rep of the wall loop may be dropped depending on character. 5D > TK 214K, land 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 236D > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236S~H, SJ j.S > j.H > 236K > 214D, land 623D Better Impossible Dust combo. Doesn't work if you're too far from the corner, then you have to do 6H H 236D instead. Gets better damage but sacrifices some meter. IAD 214K, dash 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K (delay) 236D, land 623D, 236S~H, c.S JC j.S > j.P > j.S JC j.H > 236K > 214D Corner to corner combo from a corner mixup. Amount of time you have to delay the 236K to 236D varies by character. CH 236S~S OR CH 236S~H, 236S~H, 236S~D > 236D, 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236S~H, SJ j.S > j.H > 236K > 214D, land 623D High stun damage combo. Pretty much automatically stuns Dizzy or Chipp, will stun anyone else if they have gotten CH once or twice recently. --- To Come: More combos overall, ID, throw combos. Eventually I will try to record all combos in this list for a visual demonstration.