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Amadeous

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Posts posted by Amadeous

  2. Posted · Report reply

    The things you realize right after you post. So the CPU cheating with Slashback is still a mystery.

    Apparently it's plinking SB and FD. Yes, apparently this works. No, I don't know why.

    Anyway, my vote is still towards "Ban macros for Justice players" (or perhaps just using the glitch in this way, as this is much more obvious); any other problem issues can be dealt with as they become apparent.

  3. Posted · Report reply

    Macros... well, they weren't much of an issue until now. They do still lag by 1f which makes them undesirable for FRC's, but now we have to take in to account that they autofire negative edge. In light of this discovery, I'm for banning them, but I'm not really part of the US tournament scene anymore so

    I see this thrown out a lot but I've never seen any actual data verify this. A while ago I had Circuitous run the game on an emulator using frame advance to test how much delay there was for a macro; we found there wasn't any sort of "macro delay" at all. Pressing the macro button does exactly the same thing as pressing 3 buttons at once, there's no added input delay or such. Unless there's a line of code or some other test proving otherwise, I'm not believing the "Macros have delay" myth I've seen for so many years.

    Onto the actual discussion; I feel that "until now" is misleading. As it's been pointed out, this glitch has existed since PS2 GG, and plenty of tournaments were run without macros being banned. Are you saying it's only an issue now because a certain character can make use of it to an extent where it would affect high level play? As Watches pointed out, it's perfectly doable on stick without a macro, which beyond "filling the screen with projectiles" doesn't do much for Justice. Which, beyond looking intimidating, I haven't had the chance to fight a Justice that uses it so I can't say if it really breaks the character.

    Again, I'm pushing for a middle ground. Banning macros across the board for everyone is silly when only one, ARGUABLY two characters can abuse them to make a difference in actual play. For anyone that uses macros and plays one of the 23 other characters in the game, it's ridiculous.

    Also: To anyone saying "macros are just a crutch, learn how to play the game without them"...execution is subjective. I can tell you for a fact that I can't hit Jam's 236P FRC on a pad without a macro, yet I have a friend of mine who also plays pad, and can hit the FRC on it and on Bandit Revolver just fine without macros. He didn't grind them out in training mode, he can just do some things easier than I can. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of who it does affect.

  5. Posted · Report reply

    Went ahead and tested against all characters, hitconfirming from 2D and 6HH into 236D, since some character magically make it whiff by being too low. For characters that don't get hit by 2D 236D, use 2D 236SK 236D, and for characters that don't get hit by 6HH 236D, use 6H 236D. A "O" denotes they can be hit by 2D/6HH 236D. An "X" denotes the opposite.

    Collapsed: Hitconfirming into 236D Table:

    [table]

    [/td][td]2D 236D6HH 236D

    SOL BADGUYOO

    KY KISKEXX

    MAYOO

    EDDIEOX

    TESTAMENTOO

    BAIKENOX

    VENOMXO

    ROBO-KYXX

    ORDER-SOLOO

    BRIDGETOO

    FAUSTOO

    POTEMKINOO

    JUSTICEOO

    I-NOOO

    A.B.AXO

    JOHNNYOX

    MILLIA RAGEOO

    DIZZYXO

    SLAYEROO

    ANJI MITOOO

    JAM KURADOBERIOO

    ZAPPAOO

    CHIPP ZANUFFOO

    KLIFF UNDERSNOO

    AOL LOWOO

    [/table]

  7. Posted · Edited by Amadeous · Report reply

    if this is allowed in tournaments you might as well allow ex chars as well

    That's a bit of an exaggeration.

    Also, I'm maintaining my stance of "ban macros for characters that can abuse a macro glitch". If we find that Baiken and Justice are extremely powerful with the glitch, and the Baiken and Justice communities understand and agree, I think we should just ban the using macros with those characters. No reason to punish every player that uses macros just because some characters they don't use can abuse it. That's stupid.

    Edit: Also, I did some testing in training mode. Justice doing multiple NB like that is possible without macro; it's the same situation as Bridget's old Yo-Yo recall glitch. If you release and press the button within 1 frame, Justice will fire another NB without detonating the first. Same as how Buri could hold the Yo-Yo in place by tapping the H button really fast.

    Edit 2: Went ahead and recorded a vid of what I meant: I use the pause button cause I'm on pad, but it should be doable on stick with fast enough fingers. Not gonna say if this is evidence for/against banning macros, but it is some cool Justice tech that I hadn't seen before:

  8. Posted · Edited by Amadeous · Report reply

    I do want to note that "mashing around" the input is still not the same as a reversal timed input. Yes, inputting the button every frame helps obviously, but you still have to complete the input on reversal timing. Easier for wakeups and reversals out of blockstrings maybe, but for Baiken's Guard Cancels, you would still need to buffer the Guard Cancel. For these types of situations, it's making things good players already do consistently, easier.

    If they're abusing the glitch to mash out reversal Volcanic Viper? Treat it like you would treat any VV happy Sol...block and punish. A Baiken that loves to do GCs? As you said, you only do it during specific blockstrings, and you still need to buffer Sakura to make it a guaranteed hit. Otherwise the opponent can RC, jump cancel, etc, bait it out and punish her.

    Now for things such as "inputs on frame 1 of match" or "making 1f links to special moves easier in combos" or maybe Burst Cancelling with Jam, that can be arguable. At the very least, it mostly only affects Baiken, everyone else is training wheels. Macro ban for Baiken players? Maybe.

  9. Posted · Edited by Amadeous · Report reply

    Not gonna lie, my first reaction to seeing this was, "I wonder if I can use this to make Burst Cancelling with Jam easier?" I'm a pad player, so the prospect of Burst Cancelling (Parry -> Burst -> FD cancel) is intimidating to me, but with this glitch it sounds like it'd be pretty easy to pull off. But granted, that feels more like making a high level technique DOABLE on pad, much less making it easy. Maybe I'm exaggerating the difficulty of a Burst Cancel on pad, but it is definitely easier on stick.

    'Course, if it came down to "don't be a shithead and abuse this glitch" or "don't use button macros", I'd much rather just do the former. Especially since I can't practice using the glitch in training mode, I don't think I could trust it.

    Wonder why Riot Stamp (and thusly the K button) takes priority over Gun Flame Feint (thusly the P button) though. That's...backwards.

  14. Posted · Report reply

    Generally using 623D is best for the end of a combo or just used for mix-up. As a point of reference, doing a wall loop with 623D starter is about 120 damage with knockdown at the end of it, so it really kills damage output. 214D doesn't kill it as hard but it does notably reduce damage, and it also means you can't use the D Gekirin later in the combo to extend it.

    Generally I think it'd be better just to perform 2D 236SK 236D. We've been doing it for years in AC anyway, so it's not a big deal.

    Speaking of, I'm going to look into doing fS TK 236K 236D combos. Last time I tried it seemed to be the same combos would do about 30 extra damage iirc, which would mean IF you can hitconfirm and do that it's more dangerous...but fS 236D is free and doesn't whiff on shorties so that's fun.

  15. Posted · Edited by Amadeous · Report reply

    Circ posting via Amadeous. Hi.

    Yeah c.S > Heat and c.S > f.S > Heat doesn't work now there. It doesn't seem to work in general anymore, just doing it off simple AA confirms, so maybe something was wrong in the frame data? It claims 1 active frame in AC but I've seen the hitboxes and that doesn't add up...

    Anyway, 6P is a better option, but of course difficult to time. j.S > j.D gives knockdown and is consistent across the board, so when in doubt just do that.

    To test stagger reduction, generally Slip Recovery Level 2 is considered comparable to good human reactions, Level 3 is perfectly optimal, Level Max is boss AI.

    Combos off 6K... well, if you really want an interesting combo, there's 6K > 2D > HFB FRC 5K > stuff. FAB does it! You probably won't. :(

    Dust combos, you can do 5D homing jump FD j.S, land 2S > Heat for a basic impossible dust option, maybe get c.S > f.S in there depending on how good your timing is. 5D homing jump j.H > j.H > j.H > APB also works.

    Okay Amadeous here, and I'm going back to playing Jam now.

  16. Posted · Edited by Amadeous · Report reply

    BnBs/Character Specific Hitconfirms

    NO CARDS/NO METER

    Close hit with a normal (6P, 5K, cS, etc) > 5H (3 hits) > 6H, 6P > 5H (3 hits) > 6H, 5K > 2D > 22x

    Your basic ground string. Builds good damage and meter. Needs to be close to start. Some characters like Ky and I-No you can do another rep. Others like May are hard to rep.

    Launcher (low jS, 236S~H, CH 236S~S, TK 214K, etc), fS > JC > jS > jP > jS > JC > jD (2 hits) > 214K

    Basic air ender. Has issues on Ky and Robo-Ky because of how thin they can be.

    Launcher (low jS, 236S~H, CH 236S~S, TK 214K, etc), fS > JC > jK > jD (2 hits) > 214K, 5P > JC > jS > jP > jS > JC > jD (2 hits) > 214K

    Works on anyone when you carry them to the corner with the first 214K. On Potemkin it's doable midscreen.

    Throw, SJC > jD (2 hits) > 214K

    Basic jump combo from a grab. Doesn't work on lightweights.

    Throw, SJC > jS > jH > j2K

    Basic jump combo from a grab, for lightweights. Replace j2K with 236P for throw reset gimmicks.

    3 CARDS

    cS > fS > 236D, 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 214D, cS > 2H (1 hit) > 623D, 22x

    Works on everyone but ABA. 6H after 236D can only be done if they're low to the ground. Some characters are harder to get the full loop.

    cS > fS > 236D, 6H > H, 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236S~H, SJ j.S > j.H > 236K > 214D, land 623D

    Better corner combo than the above BnB, but you need height off the wallstick. Doesn't work on Ky/Robo-Ky/Axl, hard to do on Sol/HOS. On heavyweights and Faust you need to use 2 hits of 2H.

    cS > fS > 236D, 6H, cS > 2H (1 Hit) > 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 214D, cS > 2H (1 hit) > 623D, 22x

    ABA specific combo of the above. Does roughly 200 damage and builds almost as much meter as the non-specific version.

    cS > fS > 236D, SJ > jS > jH > 236K > 214D, 623D, 22x

    Universal combo for when they're too high on the stick to catch with 6H. Doing 623D immediately after 214D in the corner makes it possible to put you in the corner behind them, setting up for a Gacho-like mixup.

    AA j.S JC j. H > 236K > 236D delay 623D, 236S~H, c.S JC j.S > j.P > j.S JC j.H > 236K > 214D

    Combo for when you get a hitconfirm very high up. Can also land and do the 623D if you're too close to the ground, just make sure you hit with just the last kick if possible

    Throw, SJ > jS > 623D, dash > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H > 236D, SJ > jH > 214D > 22x

    Excellent corner carry from a throw, universal on all cast. Possible to drop the initial jS on medium and heavyweights for easier knockdown.

    Example video on lightweights. Be sure to space 214D to be one hit for knockdown.

    Throw, 214D, dash 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H > 236D, 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 623D

    Throw combo that's doable midscreen or corner, but character specific. Works on all cast except Sol, Faust, Justice, and all Lightweight characters.

    5D > SJ > FD > jH, 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H > 236D, 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > H, dash > 5K > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 214D, (land) 623D, 22x

    Basic Impossible Dust combo. Rep of the wall loop may be dropped depending on character.

    5D > TK 214K, land 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K > 236D > 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236S~H, SJ j.S > j.H > 236K > 214D, land 623D

    Better Impossible Dust combo. Doesn't work if you're too far from the corner, then you have to do 6H H 236D instead. Gets better damage but sacrifices some meter.

    IAD 214K, dash 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236K (delay) 236D, land 623D, 236S~H, c.S JC j.S > j.P > j.S JC j.H > 236K > 214D

    Corner to corner combo from a corner mixup. Amount of time you have to delay the 236K to 236D varies by character.

    CH 236S~S OR CH 236S~H, 236S~H, 236S~D > 236D, 2H (1 hit) > 6H > 236S~H, SJ j.S > j.H > 236K > 214D, land 623D

    High stun damage combo. Pretty much automatically stuns Dizzy or Chipp, will stun anyone else if they have gotten CH once or twice recently.

    ---

    To Come: More combos overall, ID, throw combos. Eventually I will try to record all combos in this list for a visual demonstration.

  17. Posted · Edited by Amadeous · Report reply

    This is the thread for discussing Jam combo theory and finding new combos for the new release of GGACR. Post how to deal with character specific weights and hitboxes, new combo routes you may find, and anything else you can think of that can go in this thread. See next post for list of BnBs and Hitconfirms.

    ---

    Her old routes to get to wall loop really don't work since FBPB isn't wallstick anymore. Anything that was ryujin -> charged ryujin still works, but D Ryujin doesn't have nearly as much untechable time so if they're really high up it doesn't work.

    Wall loops are harder to do it feels. You have to be a lot more consistent and tight with your inputs. How you do your loop also depends on what cards you have.

    Basic 3 card loop from starting position I've found is like:

    cS fS 236D land 6H H dash 5K 2H(1) 6H H dash 5K 2H(1) 6H 236K 214D cS 2H(1) 623D

    Works on everyone but Chipp and A.B.A. I've found so far. Faust also needs to be lower on the wall after ryujin to pick him up with 6H. Chipp you drop a rep of the Wall Loop and just go to 236K 214D etc (It still does more damage than on anyone else, RIP Chipp).

    ABA specific:

    cS fS 236D land 6H cS 2H(1) 6H H dash 5K 2H(1) 6H 236K 214D cS 2H(1) 623D (Does about 200 damage on ABA and still gets knockdown so it's still good).

    You can only do the 236D 6H if they land somewhat low on the wall. It's a LOT higher than you'd think it would be, you basically land then IMMEDIATELY do 6H and your hitbox basically hits the bottom of their hurtbox and you get your bounce and do shit. If they're higher than that you can do sjc jS jH 236K 214D land cS 623D for not nearly as much damage but workable.

    Without cards you should just be doing her old shit into knockdown/charge card. Sending them high in the air and doing 22D is workable.

    There's some new stuff out there for sure using 6H ground bounce/special cancel but I don't know if it's optimal...

    Crossup 236SH is now comboable if you use a D Ryujin.

    Video of "General BnB with low wall stick":

    Getting the dashes are very important since if you don't get close enough on the first one you won't be able to get the third rep. Some characters like the Sols or Justice a third rep is needed otherwise they're not falling fast enough and they magically make the 236K whiff (magic).

    ---

    Some hitconfirming character specific notes...

    2D 236K 236D still works on May and Millia

    2D 236D DOES NOT work on Ky, Robo-Ky, Dizzy, Venom and ABA. Maybe more, I'll test. You'll still need to do 2D 236SK 236D like the old days.

    6H H 236D DOES NOT work some characters, like Eddie. I'll have to test more. 6H 236D is still available though.

  23. Posted · Report reply

    I'm still a little confused why Dizzy is considered a top character

    her main buffs were vastly improved oki and a few buffs to her neutral game like FB daggers and autopop bubbles, but in general she still seems to have all the same weaknesses as before. Basically, powerful when it's her turn, and can kind of run away/keepaway against certain characters, but is easily bullied up close and various characters still seem to get in on her easily or keep her out with superior range and pokes, and she still has meager defensive options.

    I guess it's a sign of good game balance if a character like that is considered top tier material

    Yeah she still has problems of lacking any good defensive options but...

    Fish. Fish makes her turn so much more threatening. She gets many more mixup opportunities with it along with it being more of a threat on neutral. And because of FB spears and autopop bubbles it makes getting in on her much harder anyway. Basically the parts she's lacking in is pretty much covered up by her buffs.

    Granted, I still don't think she's quite as dumb as AC Eddie or Testament, so there's that...

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