TheRealBobMan

It's been nearly three years since anyone posted in here. There's a bit of a resurgence in some +R communities, so I figured I should make a "check-in" post. I have been actively updating I-No's +R wiki pages for the last several years. On the main page: Overview Section is more robust with detailed explanations of her strengths and weaknesses. Suggested Video section including tutorials/basics and some highlights of what the character can do at high level. Move explanations are more detailed with tips on how to use them effectively. In Progress: Links to images with hitboxes for every frame of I-No's moves (click the notation of the move itself directly above the image to go to one). I have a couple on there like 5P, 6P, 5K. It takes a lot of work to do, so this is slow going. That 5K dodging slidehead is confirmed by the hitbox viewer. On the first frame her hurtbox rises slightly - only really enough to dodge Slidehead and nothing else (I've tested with other moves). Still cool to know about. Combo Page: Haven't touched this very much yet. There's some good carryover stuff that Mynus and some others posted. I'll get around to adding to this eventually, but it's way lower on priority compared to other things since it's already pretty good. Strategy Page: Added some stuff like HCL:E and VCL:E. More details on j.D FDC. I wrote up a big thing about Fastfall j.D last year, but the post got eaten for some reason (I just couldn't post it, and then I couldn't go back to save it). I'll have to rewrite that. It's in the plans. Also planned: Matchup specifics. Other: Thanks to the hitbox viewer and OBS I've been testing some system mechanics and making updates to those parts of the wiki as well. We can confirm that the window to Instant Block is 8 frames wide, and that the window to Slashback is 2 frames. Need to check if the SB window gets bigger on success (since that was a thing for one of the Loketest builds prior to +R's launch), among other things. Here's hoping the next version of Guilty Gear is awesome. Based on the recent announcement that it's in development, but not far enough along to talk about, along with the "Releases in 2019" thing on ArcSys's booth at EVO this year saying "Kill la Kill" and "???", and the fact that DBFZ is running Unreal 4 whereas Xrd runs Unreal 3, I'm going to guess that the next GG release will be a major overhaul and not just another patch.

Everyone in GG already has reversal backdash and reversal throw, and characters that are specifically bad at that (Chipp has a bad backdash and the lowest throw range) tend to have a meterless option (Chipp has a DP). Venom is notable for having the least options even when including meter, and he still has decent enough options if you're patient enough to block. I can get that at lower levels of play, some players want the ability to execute "X" action after knocked down to escape and go back to neutral, but that's not how this works. Sometimes the other player has the initiative and you have to block, but you have plenty of options when blocking. Tech rolls specifically have come up before and I've weighed in on them before. What happens in BB is that you shift the oki from when you're knocked down to when the roll ends, and it adds a layer of mixup on rolling forward or backward (or waiting and standing up), the corner restricts your ability to escape since you have less space to work with. High level players are going to be able to react and bait your roll most of the time anyway (either with a punish or by retaining initiative), so this is actually a very similar situation to baiting reversal throws and reversal backdashes. Smash also has tech rolls, but at high level there's still a huge risk of being punished, especially for characters with slower rolls and/or against characters with high mobility. I've actually had this conversation from the opposite perspective with BB players. "Why do the backdashes tend to suck in this game?" "So that you can't get out for free." Uh... sure? You can bait backdashes in GG, so they're missing the point. I like GG's system more, but there are trade offs. Lower level players are going to have an easier time playing around with BB's system because they have a wider margin to make errors and get away with it, and/or players coming from different games will adapt differently (Smash players would probably adapt to BB faster), but the system is also a little more convoluted at high levels because there are more options to deal with before you even factor in character specific options or what you're going to do once you start blocking.

Dude, if you want a teleport buff, I'd definitely agree that they could make it so he warps to the oldest ball he has out (like previous games) instead of the newest. The current version might be easier to understand, but Venom could put out a ball, then change it's position by putting out another ball, which made it harder for the enemy player to track and increased his options. Instead of only warping to a ball's initial summon position, he had access to every position of every ball because he could summon in any order to set that up (provided he had time to get at least 2 balls out). I'd also let him hit balls that are already in motion from being hit (like previous games), which also indirectly buffs the teleport since he could warp to a ball that whiffed and hit it again. These would be pretty good offensive buffs. Making his teleport fully invul on startup is a terrible idea though. Do you hate trying to oki against Pot's backdash? Now imagine that much invul, but Pot could warp to different parts of the stage, or imagine Slayer's backdash shenanigans, except give him Venom's range. Your Chipp example isn't very good because his teleports aren't invul on startup (they actually only have a few invul frames in Xrd), and the VV example is bad because DPs have lengthy fully vulnerable recovery windows, whereas Venom's teleport has only 5 vulnerable frames at the end of it (only 1 in older games). Part of Venom's cool points come from being built around having few defensive options (which are just the same ones everyone else always has), and having neutral + offensive options that make up for it. Hell, in this game he even gets a new reversal option with Blitz Shield, even if it might hurt his offense more than it helps his defense, and can Burst power his Dark Angel to make it startup-invul. If you want a zoner with a meterless reversal option pick Axl since they gave him one. Or Ky. Or you can ghetto reversal with Faust 5D. I get it though. You like Venom, but he's a little weaker than other characters. It's not so much that he needs an escape tool as it's a problem with the stronger characters having really easy-mode setups that are difficult to escape, and everyone all-around seems to have fewer moves that lead to big reward on counter-hit (or the rewards have been reduced), so it's harder to turn a game around when you make a strong read and escape. Tension pulse/balance seems to have a reduced effect, so if you're patient and IB a lot until you get your opportunity, you don't build quite as much meter once you get back to neutral as you would have built in older games, so that hurts too. I feel some definite power creep since Johnny used to have to set up an Enkasu to set up Bacchus Sigh, which would probably cost at least 25% for an FRC for that flying combo, or 50% to RC the Ensenga (artificial Enkasu). Now he can set up his unblockables off of wall-sticks, he can YRC Bacchus Sigh, has YRC on his transport moves which helps his mixup even more... I get it, blocking is hard, and even if you're good at it, 3 of the top characters have unblockable tech (and Elphelt's is just "DUR I THROW GRENADE THEN SHOOT WITH RIFLE DUR"). Use Venom's offense to avoid having to block in the first place. If you're forced to block, and you're not fighting ZA/EL/JO, then you have all the tools you need, even if it doesn't look like you do. You can reversal BS, reversal backdash, reversal throw, OTG burst, reversal Gold Burst, reversal Burst powered Super, IB and FD to create gaps, and can Dead Angle. And since I'm ranting about Venom, how many people think it would be cool if Bishop Runout was his Burst super instead of Dark Angel? Pay your Burst to have it automatically start at 4 balls or something.

What? 2S is a lvl 2 move (13 frame hitstun), so it can't combo into STBT at all anyway (STBT-S is frame 20, STBT-H is frame 28).

That first part looks like the bug where you can ground throw characters that are airborne. Since ground throw is instant, you can reversal throw with it, so with the bug extending that to airthrows, you can also beat safe jumps.

I worked on Jack-O's a little bit some time ago for RISC +/- values on some moves, but got busy. Elysion Driver doesn't force prorate either... 6H[1] CH > Elysion Driver > Microdash 6H > combo does a butt-ton of damage, so learn some frame traps (should be easy with Jack-O goons right?). I also wonder why I don't see Zato players use 6K to set up DMH more often, though I think they made it force prorate with the balance patch? I don't remember anymore.

Divide your time intelligently between getting match experience with other players, acclimating yourself to the game by playing against the CPU (including in various side modes), and in training mode. The more you learn and the better you get, the more you'll spend time in training mode. Early on, playing against the CPU and goofing off in training mode is a great way to get used to how a character moves and feels, so you'll have an idea who you want to learn first. It also helps to watch videos of the top players for any character so you can see what they're like at high levels of play. I never imagined I would want to play I-No back in AC, but then I watched Koichi committing genocide and realized I had to learn her. Continue to watch top players after that for your enjoyment, but you probably wont realize the depth behind their decisions immediately. This game is a little more complicated than BB. One thing you'll want to know going in is that while there are conventions like nearly every 6P having upper body invul so everyone has some kind of anti-air option, not every 6P has a good hitbox+animation to AA with. Furthermore, BB uses a system where a move designated with "head invul" will beat attacks that target the "head", so some AA's are completely invul to some jump-ins and almost always work. In GG it's strictly about hitbox interaction, so sometimes a really good jump-in will lose to a AA when it's timed wrong, and sometimes a really good AA will fail to beat a jump in because it wasn't timed or spaced correctly (the same moves can interact totally differently depending on context). Also, backdashes are better on average (I think the standard is 8 frames invul out of 16 frames total, though some are 9/13, and Pot's goes as far as 20/21), so that everyone has some kind of reversal option, and throws are instant, which means they're also a reversal option if oki isn't spaced properly. Throws also only have like a 1-frame wide break window, so don't count on escaping throws by mashing. Anyway, as you pick up these things it'll be easier to see why players make the decisions they make, which will help you figure out your gameplan (since you already have experience and have a general idea of what your character does at this point). Early on, learn a few basic universal combos. Get a combo down for each of your main mixup options, both for midscreen and in the corner. Start working on your neutral in a single matchup that you're going to practice heavily at first with the CPU (ideally a character that you can get real experience against). As you see which moves you're using in neutral, start learning some combos off of each of those main options. Now continue to play focusing on improving neutral with your main practice buddies. You can grind oki in training mode along with your mixup. Play the bonus modes for fun. MOM actually has the AI act in certain ways that will force you to learn game mechanics, such as a Bedman that spams his Task C (an overhead slam similar to Honda's buttslam) that gets countered easily by Blitz Shield. When you're comfortable, you should start practicing against every CPU with this character. You want to focus more on matches with real players at this point so you can build a neutral game while trying to avoid building bad habits that you'd learn from a CPU. Playing with the CPU is still good since they'll point out any holes that your buddies might let you get away with (like not spacing your oki properly, which will get you thrown, or not safe jumping properly, which can get you DP'd). At a certain point as you're learning neutral, you'll realize you're running into some roadblocks where some moves give you trouble, or their pressure/oki gives you trouble. Learn how to do that stuff with their character in training mode, then record it and play it back against yourself so you can experiment and find solutions. After a certain point, playing the CPU for any reason other than some side mode for fun is probably a waste of your time, so stick to training mode and real match experience. It's easy to learn basic offense to get started since oki options and most combos will be universal. You'll have to adjust here and there to account for a really good backdash (Slayer/Pot) or a meterless DP (Sol, Chipp), but for the most part you'll pick this up first. It's more complicated to learn defense since that's a tad more character specific. It comes from understanding their hitboxes so you can work in neutral, and then learning when/where you can push buttons when the enemy player has the initiative. You have to learn more about each character to learn how to create holes in their offense via IB, FD, BS, DA, and to pick up good Bursting habits. I'd say that's a good starting point?

Which move? VCL?

IB his Elk Hunt (the low slide) when he pressures you with it. It's a lvl4 move at +2, so if you IB that puts it at -2, and he'll be pretty close to you. You might not be close enough to throw, but his fastest options to chain into are his DP (frame 9) and Beak Driver (frame 11), which gives you enough time to punish with a move like 2K. If you're scared of the DP (shouldn't be really, if he has to take this risk you can hang him for it by making him whiff), 2P's total animation is 10 frames, so if your IB > 2P is frame perfect you'd recover in time to block the DP anyway. He could also go for the hop, but that's a slower option and you should have less trouble beating it at this range. In neutral he can Beak Driver through your notes. Shoot the notes just above where this works and then drop them on his head (or close enough to it that if he blocks the note with the beak driver, the multi hits of the note lock him down so you can shoot another one). On hit you should get enough time to get closer for HCL knockdown and start your game up. Well spaced hops are definitely hard to deal with because of the angle of his jump ins. His mixup otherwise isn't that scary - he'll probably get the most of his hits in neutral, and after that his successful mixups will come from honest jump-in type stuff, sometimes from a well-spaced hop, where he 50/50s off of the air normal with Vulture Seize (the scoop) or a low. Bull Bash is too slow to ever mix you up, and if he doesn't cover himself properly by YRCing it from time to time, it's like he's screaming "Blitz me please!". He can also do fuzzy type stuff from his normals and actually get something for it in the corner, or maybe do no damage but get corner push from mid screen (hough I'm not sure how effective his fuzzy stuff is against I-No's hurtbox), but once he's chaining his special moves his mixup isn't scary at all. Finally, his pressure has to stop sometime so he can eat. If you block until he has few calories left, look for the openings where he tries to eat and figure out a way to punish. Usually by then he'll have the meter to YRC his eating and reset pressure or to cover his ass with Voltic Deign. You'll deal with these situations differently, but they do create gaps where you can wiggle around and take the initiative. Usually you have to take some form of risk to deal with the super through, like a 50/50 escape with jump into dive, or STBT, where success gets you initiative and failure gives him a big combo. You can try to outrun it, or maybe you'll have meter to block > Dead Angle.

Is this "one shot Mist Finer" Gold Johnny, or have they changed him up?

There's a backdash OS that's blowing up on Twitter (though I had to dig for it). Trying to figure out how to link just the video made me realize how much I hate twitter since I can't get that to work (even with inspect element to pull the video file path), and trying to link to twitter is causing all sorts of problems with this post editor since it doesn't seem to actually link the video. I'll keep editing till I get the important footage linked, but what you need to know is that you can OS backdash with just about anything in the demo: Command Throw + Backdash (Pot Buster if they did nothing, backdash if they did something) Normals + Backdash (Normal if they did nothing, backdash if they did something) Etc. *Edit* Looks like you can right click on the twitter links and open in a new tab to see the posts. Good enough. But still, **** social media and double-**** twitter for being a pain in the ass.

I went dark for several weeks due to my work schedule. Any confirmation that Revelator uses that arcade stick driver? I'd hate to buy the game on PS4 and not really be able to play it.

Ram is probably harder to control than I-No at lower levels. At higher levels I-No starts using j.D FDC which is pretty hard to do, but Ram has microdash stuff and pretty complex combos, along with a just-frame input 623 move. Everyone takes advantage of Oki in GG, but I-No and Ram are definitely among the better characters at it. One major negative for Ram is that if you wind up blocking a DP or Dead Angle, your swords act like they got hit. They really should be going back to stand-by mode, but they don't. Bait a burst? Swords are out of commission for a while. It's a stupid weakness. Also, Ram doesn't get meter for her swordless normals, so she has really great corner-to-corner combos that give the other player 1/2 a bar and build you nothing. Her sword hitboxes are good, but they're not as good as you'd hope. Ram can probably run more mixups back-to-back without spending meter than I-No if she gets a corner setup with both swords deployed, though their damage is probably similar in that situation. It's easier to build meter with I-No (or anyone else) though, and it probably puts more mileage in for her. VCL YRC still leads to a pretty brainless 50/50 on oki, or they can push a button and get hit for 250+ in the corner. Note YRC does more for I-No's neutral than just about anything Ram can do with 25%. Overall I was pretty unhappy with I-No coming from AC and +R because of a lot of subtle nerfs from those games, even if she's good in this game. She kinda feels more like Millia. Millia didn't really wreck you off of a CH; she'd dance around until she was able to knock you down, then ran a train on you while you struggled to get an opportunity to play the game, whereas I-No worked harder to get a hit but wrecked you off of that hit, then had good oki afterward on top of that. Now I-No does a lot more struggling to get knockdown, or only gets knockdown for a hit instead of a full combo, then runs oki. I was interested in Ram because she was a little more like I-No used to be (get a hit and corner carry with 50% damage into dangerous oki, but fuck her ability to run away and call swords all game, which was boring), but when she was nerfed they kinda went too far with some things and made her really weak. I don't mind working hard with a character, but again, the rewards feel like they're not there with Ram. She's still pretty much "get them to the corner, then run the pain train", except they can derail your train with a burst, even if you bait it. I-No has more space control options with her toolset. I-No is probably easier to play as. I still like I-No, but I'd be interested in Ram if they fixed some things. She's really weird though, since you pretty much want to keep your swords equipped in most matchups until you get a hit, then use them for oki and damage. In some matchups you'll deploy just so that you have a full screen punish option, like being able to punish Venom for summoning a ball at the wrong time. Ram also has a really silly thing where she can wallsplat you, then use her command throw and a sword attack (2S/2H) on the same frame because they didn't code a restriction on the wallsplat like they did for wakeup/hit-stun/block-stun. Block? Get thrown. BS? Get thrown. Backdash? Unless you're SI/PO/SL you get hit. Jump? Hit. You pretty much have to DP out, and Ram could always bait the expected DP. Maybe this is already fixed. I don't know, I've been working a lot so I haven't been following the game as much as I'd like. I'm rambling, and tired. Someone else can probably do a better job explaining this.

@PhantomBlood: Not a fan of ground SM, even with YRC. It doesn't go active until 18, which is slow, and it moves I-No too high to grab a burst from the ground. Pretty sure you have to YRC pretty early before active anyway. It's not like it's a terrible idea, but there are better options to make them respect you and give you a mixup. VCL YRC is great for that if you're going to spend meter. j.D FDC also helps your mixup and doesn't cost as much. Ground SM is useful for trying to catch jump-ins and IAD in attempts, though I like TK SM. @Mangyang: Matchup thread is here. It might be a little barren for some characters, but it's a start. Hm... I have a little time off work. Maybe I can try to RTSD some more of the combo section on the wiki for the new Steam players before I'm completely lost to OT. No promises, and there's plenty of stuff on there already anyway, but if I work efficiently I can probably fill out a lot of what's left.