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D-D-Domo

Xrd Hellfire: Good or Bad?

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So for some of these characters is it actually the only way to finish off for a kill?

 

No, but throwing out a raw IK is generally considered a bad idea, coupled with being conceived as insane and/or trolling.

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No, but throwing out a raw IK is generally considered a bad idea, coupled with being conceived as insane and/or trolling.

I meant more, there are combo situations where the IK is the only way to finish, where with that amount of meter the character would be unable to kill otherwise?

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I meant more, there are combo situations where the IK is the only way to finish, where with that amount of meter the character would be unable to kill otherwise?

 

Of course if it means a kill combo then by all means go for it

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I meant more, there are combo situations where the IK is the only way to finish, where with that amount of meter the character would be unable to kill otherwise?

 

Absolutely.

I'm not a Sol player, but he probably wouldn't be able to take his opponent from 20% to 0% off a throw unless he did his IK.

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Because being in hellfire can potentially let your opponent combo into an instant kill against you when he couldn't if you weren't in hellfire.

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Absolutely.

I'm not a Sol player, but he probably wouldn't be able to take his opponent from 20% to 0% off a throw unless he did his IK.

While for many characters this is most definitely the case (especially for those that can combo into their Instant Kill mid-screen), in the corner, Sol is kind of a bad example because he does bonkers damage off a corner throw (RC). With 100% Tension, he can kill anyone from 20% life without needing Instant Kill, even Potemkin.

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Don't forget that throws are unburstable until the very next hit you combo into.  If you combo into IK there's nothing they can do about it, whereas they may have the opportunity to attempt an escape otherwise.  You now have to go for a burst bait combo (and not kill) or risk the burst ruining your day.

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While for many characters this is most definitely the case (especially for those that can combo into their Instant Kill mid-screen), in the corner, Sol is kind of a bad example because he does bonkers damage off a corner throw (RC). With 100% Tension, he can kill anyone from 20% life without needing Instant Kill, even Potemkin.

 

That so? That's corner only, though, right? 'Cause his Throw-RRC-AIKM-IK works anywhere on the screen.

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Because being in hellfire can potentially let your opponent combo into an instant kill against you when he couldn't if you weren't in hellfire.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.  It puts hellfire much further in the risk category than I'm personally comfortable with, regardless of the reward.

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Don't forget that throws are unburstable until the very next hit you combo into.  If you combo into IK there's nothing they can do about it, whereas they may have the opportunity to attempt an escape otherwise.  You now have to go for a burst bait combo (and not kill) or risk the burst ruining your day.

 

Indeed. It can be used in much the same context as Astral Heats in BlazBlue. If anything, the prevalence of Guts and the "50% Tension to Roman Cancel, 50% Tension to activate Instant Kill Mode (Gold)" element of comboing into Instant Kills (as TITANIUM BEAST!!! has mentioned, some characters have set-ups that don't require the former) grants it even more validity, even though the maximum life percentage you can initiate it from is lower. It just so happens that with Guilty Gear Xrd being such a meter driven game, players don't usually sit on all of their Tension for it to be readily available when that situation occurs outside of actively aiming to Instant Kill well ahead of time, so that's why you don't see it all that often.

 

That so? That's corner only, though, right? 'Cause his Throw-RRC-AIKM-IK works anywhere on the screen.

 

Correct.

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I wanna see stuff like neutral YRC to read a jump-in and then super to punish it or something, and have it actually be worth the 75 meter. Personally I'd rather see raw supers get buffed across the board, and combo-ender supers remain in their basically unusable state. I feel like raw supers did more work in XX than in Xrd, and hellfire just kind of brings them back up to that, but maybe that's my imagination?  Thoughts on this?

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Regarding IKs, I'm convinced Ramlethal has the easiest time landing them since her IK animation is like dauro (a big forward dashing swipe) and everything she does wallsticks. She can just 5KKK>rc>IKmode>ik in the corner.

 

 

But yeah if you're in >20% life and your foe has full meter, you're likely gonna lose either way and you likely did a lot of things wrong to get into the situation (unless they gold bursted or something to get this meter, which doesn't happen that often and it's still your fault for being hit by a gold burst) since they should have had to use meter to cause 80+% of your lifebar to go away. That they can IK you doesn't actually affect all that much when we examine the entirety of the round and not just what happens after you've basically (most likely) already lost.

 

 

Complaining about the IK in this situation is like saying the guy who got shot on top a staircase and then tripped and fell from the top to the bottom of the staircase died because of the fall and not due to being shot. Yeah he did snap his neck but it's the shot that's at fault here, not the fall.

 

I wanna see stuff like neutral YRC to read a jump-in and then super to punish it or something, and have it actually be worth the 75 meter. Personally I'd rather see raw supers get buffed across the board, and combo-ender supers remain in their basically unusable state. I feel like raw supers did more work in XX than in Xrd, and hellfire just kind of brings them back up to that, but maybe that's my imagination?  Thoughts on this?

If you have the meter, just antiairing into an RC combo would be better there. Only point to do a super there is if your foe can burst the combo. You can do it with less than 75 meter too. Also most supers are pretty meh antiairs and the ones that aren't meh you wouldn't need to YRC before them to get them to AA.

 

 

 

All in all, 75-meter-options are prohibitively expensive so they're too uncommon to be worth considering. I mean, it'd be cool and whatnot, and 100 meter options are even cooler, but it's still not particularly...good.

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While for many characters this is most definitely the case (especially for those that can combo into their Instant Kill mid-screen), in the corner, Sol is kind of a bad example because he does bonkers damage off a corner throw (RC). With 100% Tension, he can kill anyone from 20% life without needing Instant Kill, even Potemkin.

Anyone that has time to wait out the slow could probably do it.

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Anyone that has time to wait out the slow could probably do it.

 

Well, to put it into perspective, to kill a character at 20% life, you need to deal 84 damage. The same combo I used to deal 84 damage to Potemkin at 20% life deals 206 damage at 100% life. The same combo on Sol deals 225 damage at 100% life (excluding a single hit which can't land on Sol, but doesn't affect the damage due to when it takes place during damage scaling). Sol can actually deal more damage than that too, but due to how scaling works, the combo with poorer scaling but more hits is more effective at low life values.

So that's the gist of it, if you can deal 225+ off a corner throw on an average life character, you can kill Potemkin at 20% life off a corner throw. This is also considering the fact that throws have forced proration. Contrary to some claims, throw proration does not go away if you wait out Roman Cancel slowdown, only the additional proration from the Roman Cancel slowdown itself is bypassed.

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Regarding IKs, I'm convinced Ramlethal has the easiest time landing them since her IK animation is like dauro (a big forward dashing swipe) and everything she does wallsticks. She can just 5KKK>rc>IKmode>ik in the corner.

 

 

But yeah if you're in >20% life and your foe has full meter, you're likely gonna lose either way and you likely did a lot of things wrong to get into the situation (unless they gold bursted or something to get this meter, which doesn't happen that often and it's still your fault for being hit by a gold burst) since they should have had to use meter to cause 80+% of your lifebar to go away. That they can IK you doesn't actually affect all that much when we examine the entirety of the round and not just what happens after you've basically (most likely) already lost.

 

 

Complaining about the IK in this situation is like saying the guy who got shot on top a staircase and then tripped and fell from the top to the bottom of the staircase died because of the fall and not due to being shot. Yeah he did snap his neck but it's the shot that's at fault here, not the fall.

 

This is Guilty Gear.  You have a disadvantage because your life is low.  You're not "likely gonna lose either way".

 

 

The other thing to consider, which I think gets overlooked a lot, is that you enter hellfire during your last 10% health if you don't reset to neutral between then and when you had hit 20% remaining.  It'll still be pretty situational when it matters, but since supers don't scale your meter gain there are some situations where you might use a super early in a combo so that you'll do 50% damage when they have 60% remaining.  In such a case you might not be able to get the kill, but you might build back up enough meter to combo into IK, providing you have a set-up that doesn't require RC.  I-No might have some setups off of Fortissimo combos that end in landing-Pdive (Pdive that hits so low to the ground that she lands instead of bouncing - they still suffer from the massive Pdive hitstun) that could lead into IK, and it's very possible for her to build up 30% meter in one combo.  If she started her combo with around 70% meter she could potentially kill some characters from their last 50%, which is when guts kicks in and reduces damage sharply (in most cases she would need 2-3 combos).  Then there's Ramlethal who could potentially do a 50% combo, and if she had the meter for it, combo into Toranshi as a combo "ender" (for ~10% minimum damage because it's 40 hits), into IK.

 

In most cases you wont have the setup to RC > IK at the end of a combo that gets them to their last 10% because of hitstun scaling and meter cost.  You also probably would have started with sufficient meter to go for a better combo.  Still, you'll get situations where you can take a risk toward your meterless max damage when you have plenty of meter to spare, and if it works out you might get a kill for it.  Some characters might benefit from using a high-risk move when the opponent is in the 40-50% remaining health range, and if it doesn't pan out, PRCing it.  If it does pan out though, you keep that meter and use it for the IK finish.  I could see this mattering specifically against Chipp.  His guts is amazing and his defense sucks, so you could combo him down to his last 10% from 70% but not be able to finish him off.  If you're on match point you might be able to IK him there instead of giving him a chance to escape.

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How is acknowledging the fact that someone under the aforementioned situation is likely to lose in any way related to giving up when you yourself are in this situation?

 

I'm saying don't focus on the IK, focus on all the other mistakes you did. They're why you're in this situation which may cause you to lose, not the IK. Giving up is wholly irrelevant. The point is the IK is just a scapegoat that you use when you say this thing.

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Well, to put it into perspective, to kill a character at 20% life, you need to deal 84 damage. The same combo I used to deal 84 damage to Potemkin at 20% life deals 206 damage at 100% life. The same combo on Sol deals 225 damage at 100% life (excluding a single hit which can't land on Sol, but doesn't affect the damage due to when it takes place during damage scaling). Sol can actually deal more damage than that too, but due to how scaling works, the combo with poorer scaling but more hits is more effective at low life values.

So that's the gist of it, if you can deal 225+ off a corner throw on an average life character, you can kill Potemkin at 20% life off a corner throw. This is also considering the fact that throws have forced proration. Contrary to some claims, throw proration does not go away if you wait out Roman Cancel slowdown, only the additional proration from the Roman Cancel slowdown itself is bypassed.

.

Are you sure about that last part? Because sendu is rocking out sol combos that do like 200+ damage off throw RC. If that's with forced proration I had no idea sol could do that sort of damage

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Are you sure about that last part? Because sendu is rocking out sol combos that do like 200+ damage off throw RC. If that's with forced proration I had no idea sol could do that sort of damage

 

When you're getting Throw to BB > Fafnir > GF > whatever (That's 55 + ~30*3 + whatever you feel like going into afterwards), Sol is definitely capable of breaking 200 damage with 65% forced prorates.

 

This is why you don't get hit by CH 6H. Combos out of that do 280+. Meterless. Sol is a pain generator.

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If you have the meter, just antiairing into an RC combo would be better there. Only point to do a super there is if your foe can burst the combo. You can do it with less than 75 meter too. Also most supers are pretty meh antiairs and the ones that aren't meh you wouldn't need to YRC before them to get them to AA.

 

All in all, 75-meter-options are prohibitively expensive so they're too uncommon to be worth considering. I mean, it'd be cool and whatnot, and 100 meter options are even cooler, but it's still not particularly...good.

Yeah that's what I'm saying.  I wish sticking supers in hard-to-fit, non-combo places was more worth it so they had more utility.

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I meant more, there are combo situations where the IK is the only way to finish, where with that amount of meter the character would be unable to kill otherwise?

Not sure for other characters (but the answer is probably yes), but this is definitely true for Millia in most game-ending situations. Since her combos scale hard towards the end, it's really common to bring someone down to 10% or less health at the end of a combo but have no way to deal more than another 2-3% with an ender. The issue with Millia is that you need the right setup to take advantage of the IK opportunity; you'll usually have the 50% meter needed to IK at round end since she builds meter during the lead-up combo.

Anyway, my video that was linked above explains all that probably better than I'm doing now!

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