Air tech dipshittery

[WolfCrimson]

Mash-to-tech is dumb, it's pretty tough on pad, keep getting black-beat hits. Easier on stick though, but it still isn't ok.

[qwerty]

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would want the AC throw techs back, considering the extremely short tech window that you can use only if you hard-read the throw. If you do read it, you can already counter it in many ways in Xrd.

 

It's nice to be able to buffer throw techs instead of having to YRC to eat the throw input. Not to mention there are virtually inescapable tech traps that throw techs would mitigate.

 

Like any of you ever teched throws more than every few dozen matches to begin with. Even in Japanese footage, throw breaks weren't exactly common. Hell, I'm almost tempted to say I saw slashback more often than throw breaks.

 

I don't like ground/delay ukemi either, but mash-to-tech has to go. It's so unintuitive, and is basically the one regard in which Xrd lags behind the other games ASW has put out recently.

 

I tech throws a lot, lol.

 

The thing about giving Xrd buffered tech inputs is that it's a layer the game simply does not need. So everyone can recover out of dropped combos on the first frame now, great. That just makes my air throw tech trap easier to land. And if you don't want throw techs back...

[redsilversnake]

Air resets in BB and P4U are also things you need to keep in mind, yet don't see all that often. Hold-to-tech doesn't add an unneeded layer, it just makes air ukemi more intuitive. People who argue otherwise might as well just be reaffirming the stereotype of Guilty Gear players being stubbornly stuck in the past.

[QSpec]

I actually don't mind the lack of a throw tech in Xrd.  I think it keeps the pace up.  Someone is generally going to get thrown or get hit.  Add to that, throws aren't as strong as they are in some other games (like in SG in which most characters can get the better part of a combo) so the reward for landing them isn't as immense.  I can see the gripe in a legacy sense (we should have them since we've always had them), but I see less of a reason to actually implement them.

[qwerty]

Air resets in BB and P4U are also things you need to keep in mind, yet don't see all that often. Hold-to-tech doesn't add an unneeded layer, it just makes air ukemi more intuitive. People who argue otherwise might as well just be reaffirming the stereotype of Guilty Gear players being stubbornly stuck in the past.

 

Neither of those games have zero frame throws, not to mention air movement and defensive options are completely different between all three games.

 

Believe me, you don't want buffered tech in Xrd. You may think it'd make life easier, and you can definitely be forgiven for thinking so, but all you're doing is giving me more ways to hit you. If you can consistently tech out at the same point, all I have to do is practice one tech trap setup. As it is, that kind of thing is already stupid strong in Xrd thanks to the lack of throw techs and the offensive use of YRC.

 

Please refrain from dogmatic generalizations moving forward. We're all here to listen, right? Full disclosure: I started playing GG in 2008.

 

I actually don't mind the lack of a throw tech in Xrd.  I think it keeps the pace up.  Someone is generally going to get thrown or get hit.  Add to that, throws aren't as strong as they are in some other games (like in SG in which most characters can get the better part of a combo) so the reward for landing them isn't as immense.  I can see the gripe in a legacy sense (we should have them since we've always had them), but I see less of a reason to actually implement them.

 

Throw techs weren't introduced until AC. People want them because they don't like getting thrown when they know it's coming and don't have the meter necessary to eat the input. Or maybe they're stuck in a 1F frame trap and don't have a reversal. There's a number of reasons to want it.

[Maho]

It's not like hold to tech forces you to tech at the first possible frame, actually the defending player would just have to think on when to tech instead of mashing like his life depends on it because he doesn't want to eat a black beat combo.

[qwerty]

Let's be honest though; that is the reason most people want it and would be using it for.

 

All you have to do right now is strum 2 or 3 buttons if you want out on the first possible frame. Or hell, you can double tap.

 

Now what buffered tech would solve is accidentally getting YRC after you tech, though that could be easily fixed by changing the buffer window for YRC (which may even partially fix YRC install).

[redsilversnake]

If you think one tech trap is gonna work all the time, you're kidding yourself. Even in current Xrd play, there are times when a player will go for an air reset that won't work because the other player intentionally doesn't tech. Hold-to-tech wouldn't change the ratio at decent - high-level play, just how players tech.

And it's not as simple as "hit buttons if you want out as early as possible," because you can mash as much as you can and still get hit by a black-beat combo, which is exactly what I mean by unintuitive.

[NecroTheReaper]

No, I'd like hold to tech so a single button press would give me what I want, when I needed. Mash to tech doesn't do that, and I have to hold FD to make sure I don'tget unwanted mashing brought forth from the ssystem. A game that encourages mashing the hell out of the huttons teaches bad habits imo

[XXXDC]

Like any of you ever teched throws more than every few dozen matches to begin with.

Eh? sorry buddy but here we used to throw tech on almost every match, mostly because you already know most people's setups and can predict stuffs.

Not being able to tech throws  is gross  .

[qwerty]

If you think one tech trap is gonna work all the time, you're kidding yourself. Even in current Xrd play, there are times when a player will go for an air reset that won't work because the other player intentionally doesn't tech. Hold-to-tech wouldn't change the ratio at decent - high-level play, just how players tech.

And it's not as simple as "hit buttons if you want out as early as possible," because you can mash as much as you can and still get hit by a black-beat combo, which is exactly what I mean by unintuitive.

 

There are already some tech trap setups in Xrd that are virtually inescapable and lead to a mixup if you don't tech. Throw techs would partially solve that, and buffered tech would do nothing to solve it. So I guess you are right about that part, though I think you're kind of missing the point about the other part.

 

As for your second point, double tap or learn the combo's tech points. It'll work much better for you in the long run than always getting a first frame tech that people will learn how to kill you for doing, anyways.

[NecroTheReaper]

If its a combo, it won't have "tech points". You're basically chancing on your opponent to drop the combo, intentional or not.

[qwerty]

I am of course referring to the points where people tend to drop it. Is the chief complaint against the current system not that you can end up eating a combo you thought you teched out of?

[redsilversnake]

There are already some tech trap setups in Xrd that are virtually inescapable and lead to a mixup if you don't tech. Throw techs would partially solve that, and buffered tech would do nothing to solve it. So I guess you are right about that part, though I think you're kind of missing the point about the other part.

 

As for your second point, double tap or learn the combo's tech points. It'll work much better for you in the long run than always getting a first frame tech that people will learn how to kill you for doing, anyways.

One thing I forgot to bring up is that players don't always go for tech traps. Most of the time, they will go for full combos, in which case, buffered tech would be much better for if they drop one. Double-tapping doesn't always work either, so you're still not really providing good reasons for keeping mash-to-tech.

[NecroTheReaper]

That's not my issue, at the very least. Maybe others, but... I just wish that if I took the smallest air hit from fullscreen that they have no chance at converting off of, that I could air tech into 236P without havin to throw out FD or P mash on the way down.

[SoWL]

I don't mind mash-to-tech, except that even setting my pad to turbo makes me fail the tech mission, so I think that's where they should make a fix.

[qwerty]

One thing I forgot to bring up is that players don't always go for tech traps. Most of the time, they will go for full combos, in which case, buffered tech would be much better for if they drop one. Double-tapping doesn't always work either, so you're still not really providing good reasons for keeping mash-to-tech.

 

That would most certainly change if there were buffered techs. People will go for combos they know they'll black beat precisely because they know people won't tech out. If you could just hold a button and tech out at that point, people would learn how to turn that situation into a reset. Tech traps are already strong enough in Xrd and we don't need to see them being used more.

 

Yes, I know you can delay your tech even with an input buffer, but you can already do that. Again, the reason most people want this is so they don't have to eat a combo they thought they teched out of, so they are basically asking for instant techs all the time with the exception of when they want to delay it.

[Uncivilized Elk]

I'm not a fan of mindless mashing either.
So beginner players will eat resets all day if it's hold-to-tech. Who the fuck cares honestly? Beginners will eat fucking shitstorm of things on top of that and have an immense amount of stuff to learn anyway. I've seen beginners eat May's H dolphin in the wall like 5x in a row because they're not teching it - I think that's a bit more egregious than "they will be susceptible to my resets"

If you're using resets based around teching out on the first frame, a player with half a brain will start to anticipate that. Whether it is tap or hold to tech has no impact on that. Tap to tech now just makes it so people sometimes can't do the thing they aimed for, and sometimes do aerial moves out of the tech. If anything it just adds a layer of randomness to the game.

 

If a player is not getting hit by your reset just because they aren't that great at timing teching as opposed to predicting your reset how is that a good thing? 

[redsilversnake]

Again, if you think buffered techs will just lead to tech traps off every hit confirm, you're kidding yourself. It just means players take a gamble on guaranteed ukemi if the combo drops or a black-beat combo, which they already do, just without the "guaranteed" part. The current problem with the game is, as you yourself say, that you can think you've mashed enough to cover a couple of frames where a move connected too late, only to eat a black-beat combo.

I just don't see how this

Again, the reason most people want this is so they don't have to eat a combo they thought they teched out of, so they are basically asking for instant techs all the time with the exception of when they want to delay it.

is in any way a problem. You're honestly acting like people are wrong to expect basic control over their character's actions.

[Krackatoa]

That would most certainly change if there were buffered techs. People will go for combos they know they'll black beat precisely because they know people won't tech out. If you could just hold a button and tech out at that point, people would learn how to turn that situation into a reset. Tech traps are already strong enough in Xrd and we don't need to see them being used more.

 

Yes, I know you can delay your tech even with an input buffer, but you can already do that. Again, the reason most people want this is so they don't have to eat a combo they thought they teched out of, so they are basically asking for instant techs all the time with the exception of when they want to delay it.

 

The only arguments I can think for Tap-to-Tech is the catharsis of pressing buttons, plus if you want certain situations to stick around (Stray low-hitstun blackbeats leading to damage during scrambles, etc). I certainly don't mind tech traps becoming more consistent. At a high level, we're either teching or not teching anyhow. Let's give new players the ability to escape combo drops, and give them the ability to skewer themselves on tech traps more readily.

 

Both systems offer their positives. I can easily see why it's not in the game, and I see the benefit of having it. I'm fine with it either way, but I'm not playing on pad (This game seems like it would be ass without claw grip)

[qwerty]

@Uncivilized Elk: It's quite naive to assume this wouldn't affect higher levels of play. That is all I am talking about when I am talking about the upsides or downsides of anything.

 

I think you and many others don't appreciate just how strong tech traps are in this game. The current tech system is as good as it gets to combat it. Holding a button to tech wouldn't do anything besides give the aggressor even more opportunities to hit you. Throw techs would give you another line of defense against tech traps and offensive YRC use.

 

@redsilversnake: You would definitely see an increase in tech trap usage, because now you have a point in a combo where the other guy has a guaranteed 1F window where he can tech, whereas now that window exists, but it can only sometimes be utilized. If you think that's hyperbole, many times when people black beat after a jump cancel it's only off by one or two frames.

 

Let's say I'm Ky, and I do c.S -> jump cancel in a combo. If I delay the jump cancel a little bit, the combo will black beat, but if I do a j.K + airthrow option select, it'll continue the combo if you don't tech and air throw you if you do. With the current system, if you were mashing, you probably won't get out on the first frame, which actually works to your advantage in this case since I won't be in airthrow range (you will likely be below me). Whereas if you could tech out by holding a button and got out on the first frame possible, you'd eat the airthrow because you'd be above me.

 

What problem is this solving in this case? You'll get out of the combo, sure, but now you're liable to eat a crossup.

 

I think another issue is that a lot of people tend to think that getting out of a combo ASAP is desirable in most cases, when really if you're against an opponent who knows how to play the air spacing game, you almost always want to delay by a frame or two.

[NecroTheReaper]

You're just hindering the purpose of learning at this point with your defense of mash to tech. Im done lol

[redsilversnake]

You still aren't making a good case for why buffered tech would actually change any of that, because you seem to be ignoring that delayed techs would still be a thing. As Uncivilized Elk says, if a player at a decent enough skill level keeps losing to tech resets, that player will start not teching on the first possible frames. In other words, the current situation as you describe it ultimately doesn't change.

[qwerty]

What you guys are not getting is that when you tech in this game, even when it seems like you're doing it quickly, it is usually "delayed" in the sense that you are not getting out on the first possible frame. It makes a pretty huge difference in terms of your positioning after the tech since you want to try to be level with/slightly below your opponent if possible, obviously while teching in the direction that gives you the best chance of getting out.

 

Something else to consider is if the tech input is buffered, you can mistakenly tech too quickly. Let's say you aren't mashing but double tapping (like many good players do), and you want to get out at a specific point. With double tapping you get two possible points to tech out (no negative edge in Xrd, remember). You can time the first press to get out at the point you want, then the second for a point afterward that is not as favorable but still good. If you were to hold instead, you would only get one point, which again, makes tech trapping easier.

[MoralHazardPay]

All that held techs would do is add an additional defensive tool; if a player wanted to play as of it was the current system they could still mash to tech or wait and do a delayed tech