Air tech dipshittery

[qwerty]

Just so you know, negative edge never worked for air recovery, you could only use it for specials.

 

Can't you negative edge throws though? I'm pretty sure it does apply to techs, and indeed all button presses that don't result in normals.

[Maho]

Even with hold to tech, the defender would still have the three recovery options, and I seriously doubt there would be even one OS that would cover those three choices.

 

EDIT : you can't use negative edge for recovery in old GGs, wasn't sure about throws so I checked in #R pc and it doesn't work either.

[redsilversnake]

I have been more than reasonable with you dude, but you are starting to push it. If my arguments are so wrong, debunk them. Otherwise, you're just adding to the already pitiful signal to noise ratio of this forum.

You have not been reasonable. You've ignored counterpoints and continue to rely almost entirely on assumptions. It has been gone over by myself and others why you don't have a good argument for not including hold-to-tech, yet you keep acting like any change to the ukemi system is inherently bad.

[qwerty]

It all depends on spacing, really. I can think of more than a few situations where you can get a guaranteed airthrow regardless of which direction the opponent teched in Xrd. Ky and Venom in particular use this kind of thing all the time.

[qwerty]

You have not been reasonable. You've ignored counterpoints and continue to rely almost entirely on assumptions. It has been gone over by myself and others why you don't have a good argument for not including hold-to-tech, yet you keep acting like any change to the ukemi system is inherently bad.

 

I have addressed everything worth addressing and even graciously admitted I was wrong about the double tapping thing. You have argued little, and I even addressed your first post in its entirety. It has been MoralHazardPay who has been keeping this discussion going (and interesting). You came off as antagonistic from the very beginning, and I really don't like to be mean on the internet anymore, so please, stop if you're not going to contribute.

[Maho]

Even with that kind of OS possible, it wouldn't change the fact that you could delay tech if you wanted it, thus this wouldn't change anything for you if you don't want to use hold to tech.

 

Honeslty the worse thing about mash to tech is that it can create frustration for players that have problems teching (I see that happening a bit more with pad players), frustration makes the game less fun, having to think a bit more about being tech trapped wouldn't IMO.

[qwerty]

Of course you can delay it. Can we stop mentioning that please? I have not once said or insinuated that wasn't the case.

 

You can also burst whenever you want in a combo, yet people burst at obviously burst safe points all the time. Yes, even in Japan.

[redsilversnake]

I have addressed everything worth addressing and even graciously admitted I was wrong about the double tapping thing. You have argued little, and I even addressed your first post in its entirety. It has been MoralHazardPay who has been keeping this discussion going (and interesting). You came off as antagonistic from the very beginning, and I really don't like to be mean on the internet anymore, so please, stop if you're not going to contribute.

I've argued little?

 

Air resets in BB and P4U are also things you need to keep in mind, yet don't see all that often. Hold-to-tech doesn't add an unneeded layer, it just makes air ukemi more intuitive.

Even in current Xrd play, there are times when a player will go for an air reset that won't work because the other player intentionally doesn't tech. Hold-to-tech wouldn't change the ratio at decent - high-level play, just how players tech.

And it's not as simple as "hit buttons if you want out as early as possible," because you can mash as much as you can and still get hit by a black-beat combo, which is exactly what I mean by unintuitive.

One thing I forgot to bring up is that players don't always go for tech traps. Most of the time, they will go for full combos, in which case, buffered tech would be much better for if they drop one. Double-tapping doesn't always work either, so you're still not really providing good reasons for keeping mash-to-tech.

It just means players take a gamble on guaranteed ukemi if the combo drops or a black-beat combo, which they already do, just without the "guaranteed" part. The current problem with the game is, as you yourself say, that you can think you've mashed enough to cover a couple of frames where a move connected too late, only to eat a black-beat combo.

As Uncivilized Elk says, if a player at a decent enough skill level keeps losing to tech resets, that player will start not teching on the first possible frames. In other words, the current situation as you describe it ultimately doesn't change.

You're claiming that literally none of these quotes are things I've said? 'Cause those look like arguments. I can easily concede that MoralHazardPay has made better points than I have, but if you're going to insinuate that he's the only one who's actually engaged you and I've only been "antagonistic," then you're just being disingenuous.

 

Anyway, the reason delayed tech keeps coming up is because you keep glossing over it in favor of the assumption that players will always try to tech ASAP. It's the most obvious, basic counterpoint, yet you have yet to actually address it. And unless every single character in the game has some way to reliably deal with it, there is still little reason not to add hold-to-tech.

[qwerty]

If we're really going to go this route...

 

1. Already addressed. Comparing this aspect of GG to BB or P4U is meaningless because those games have so many fundamental differences that it's not worth comparing in this sense. Neither game has 0F throws, the OS' that Guilty Gear has, the abundance of air unblockable normals, etc. (As an aside, I see BB players, particularly in the US, go for pink throw resets more often than I should care to admit)

 

2. Already addressed. It does affect how people make the decision to tech and I have already explained that. When the option to always make a perfect escape is there, it is always going to be an appealing option. Likewise, it is going to be what the attacking player prepares for the most. That fundamentally changes the dynamic of tech trapping and teching. Mashing isn't precise and isn't meant to be, that is why it's called mashing. You can always double tap or simply rely on visual cues if you don't want to mash.

 

3. I already understand the argument for hold techs, and you will never hear me say that I like eating black beat combos. Still, I'd rather deal with the occasional black beat combo than deal with a mechanic shoehorned into a system that was never meant to accommodate it. Obviously tech traps are an exception to the rule of thumb (that people will typically opt to complete their combo), but they are a very strong tool nonetheless, and would only be stronger if the attacking player could bait held techs by just slightly delaying a jump cancel or whatever else.

 

4. A gamble cannot be guaranteed by definition. Having a guaranteed out cheapens the value of early techs by making them easier to anticipate.

 

5. Already addressed. The dynamic changes greatly, as there would then be an extra kind of tech that both players have to take into account in regards to deciding what kind of combo to do, what kind of OS to use, when to OS, etc.

 

Lastly, delayed tech is not a counterpoint. If anything, it compliments my argument. With early teching becoming more of a gamble, delayed teching is effectively incentivized.

[Dullyanna]

Yeah with hold tech in GG, top players would magically anticipate where their combos will drop and just delay their air normals by a large number of frames to OS catch the fastest possible timing of air tech instead of try to go for their GUARANTEED DAMAGE. Much of the time that competent players drop air combos it's by a couple of frames, so the 5 frame + air normal is more than likely already going to be out by the time they tech, even if its on the first frame possible. You can only prepare so much for a dropped combo, and it often isn't going to put you in a favorable position when it happens.

[redsilversnake]

Those quotes weren't meant to re-make the arguments in them; they are explicitly there to debunk your claim that I hadn't done much in the way of actual argumentation.

Also, you're still relying on narrow-minded assumptions.

 

1. They may be different, but not to the extent that the mechanic would have fundamentally different effects. For the record, I'm far from the only player to have gotten hit by tech resets in BBCP and P4U, both with throws and AUB attacks.

 

2. Just because it's an appealing option doesn't mean it will be done on every air combo. Likewise, the attacker would still have to decide between continuing the combo or using a tech reset depending on their opponent's ukemi patterns. Meaning, again, that situation ultimately doesn't change aside from teching itself being easier to perform.

 

3. See previous sentence.

 

4. The gamble is in whether or not to tech right away. A guarantee that you can tech on the first possible frame being one of the two options you'd have, with no real change to pros or cons in the metagame, doesn't change that.

 

5. See 3.

[qwerty]

You guys are not getting it. Nowhere did I say that people would always go for black beat combos to try to bait early techs. What I have been saying is that in the case where the aggressor wants to go for a tech trap (and there are plenty of reasons to do so), the decision becomes much easier to make when you know that the other guy is probably holding a button to tech out immediately. Like we can all agree on, going for tech traps instead of finishing your combo is the exception to the rule; which is why holding down a button while you're getting hit will become the defacto default action, as mashing currently is for many people. What you are not understanding is that this additional method of teching out is the easiest to beat because the timing is consistent, which means that the spacing (for each direction you can tech) is consistent as well. This makes beating those early techs the easiest option, and one that, again, would often times be done via an option select, so it's not like the aggressor would have to change much or anything if he wanted to beat that.

 

Of course this is not the ONLY way to tech, which some people seem to think that I am assuming. It is however, the safest, easiest, most appealing method. That is, of course, until you start getting reset to death, in which case you start late teching. This is not really a mixup though, because the "guess" is between a guaranteed action that you have a guaranteed counter against and a possible action that you may or may not have a counter against. It skewers the risk:reward and fundamentally changes the decision on how and when to tech.

 

They may be different, but not to the extent that the mechanic would have fundamentally different effects.

 

This is going to sound mean, but I'm afraid there is no other way to say it: you do not understand Guilty Gear well enough to make that assessment.

[Dullyanna]

Except generally in tech trap situations where the defender is trying to tech asap, they probably aren't going to miss the first frame by a large enough window to make a significant difference in how far they tech away from the opponent. Delayed tech in these situations has always been incentivized when the defender recognizes it, because it's harder to catch than the early frames because of both positioning and timing. When they don't, the offender plays off them mashing and trying to get out of the combo asap, and not always getting tech on first frame really doesn't change that.

[qwerty]

It's significant enough to matter in many situations, especially in Xrd where they can react to your tech, YRC and airthrow you. I see Venom players do that all the time. Delaying your tech even slightly can put you low enough to the point where he can't get into airthrow range.

 

I do agree with your second point to an extent, in that delayed tech has always been incentivized in this situation, but I think you're somewhat missing the point of not wanting 1F escapes being the defacto way to tech out.

[redsilversnake]

It skewers the risk:reward and fundamentally changes the decision on how and when to tech.

How? You still have not given a satisfactory explanation for this claim, because everything you say before this about hold-to-tech already applies to how the game is except, obviously, for guaranteed techs. It's already the case that you're not necessarily going to mash out of an air combo if you know that your opponent goes for tech resets, so it doesn't seem likely that that would change just because you can hold a button instead.

 

This is going to sound mean, but I'm afraid there is no other way to say it: you do not understand Guilty Gear well enough to make that assessment.

That's not really mean, just blunt. And I'll admit, you could be right; I started the series on AC+ less than a year before BBCT came out, but have only had a decent amount of matches with Xrd due to the arcade here not seeing much play before +R, and even when that came out, there were ultimately few times I was able to get offline matches (or online matches, for that matter, but +R would obviously not be as conducive to netplay as Xrd, so I'm not sure my online experience would matter as much), and thus didn't have as much motivation to study much aside from Dizzy's strategies and matchups, so it's self-evident that I'm not going to be as familiar with it as others are.

However, that still does not mean you've been making valid points. Even if you definitively showed that tech resets in GG are fundamentally different from those in other ASW games, you still have not established how they would change within GG if hold-to-tech were implemented. Again, you just keep claiming that they would, with the reasons you give being things that are mostly already there.

[qwerty]

I think this is the last time I'm going to attempt to illustrate this.

 

If you have a point in a combo where you're at the perfect spacing to hit your opponent with a reset (typically when you're right below them) and you know the other guy is going to tech out on the first frame, you have the easiest reset in the world just waiting to happen. In Xrd this extends to other situations as well, such as Venom hitting you with a ball, you teching, then Venom doing teleport -> YRC (among other situations, but we'll stick with the basic ones for examples sake).

 

Right now, the way most people tech out of combos in Guilty Gear is by mashing/strumming. This allows for quick, though not necessarily instant recoveries (try mashing out of that one challenge in Xrd to see this in action).

 

Double-tapping allows you to choose two points to tech out, if you don't want to leave as much to chance. This is the more precise method, whereas mashing/strumming is the less precise, but convenient method.

 

As you probably know, many people choose the first method. As you have probably noticed, most of those people start mashing/strumming the moment they get hit. If they could hold a button instead, then they would likely default to that (it is quicker, after all). This is where the issue with held or buffered techs would come in to play: instead of getting multiple tech attempts frames apart, you now have multiple consecutive (frame by frame) tech attempts. This means that the timing for when you tech is more consistent. This in turn means that accounting for techs in your combos becomes much easier, as now you have one "earliest" timing to watch out for (which does currently exist, but very rarely occurs in practice) instead of being more or less forced to adapt to slightly different timings that may actually end up putting you in a bad spot.

 

So basically, this becomes an issue of when to tech on the first frame vs when to tech slightly later vs when to tech much later. Teching on the first frame is guaranteed to get you out of a combo, but the likelihood of eating a tech trap is highest because that is the expected thing to do as it is the easiest, fastest way to get out (assuming we have held/buffered techs). Teching slightly later is also expected, though as the aggressor you have to be a little more careful in how you space yourself since you don't want to be the one getting airthrown or hit with an air normal. Lastly, teching out much later is the least expected in most situations because not only is it not the instinctively "right" thing to do, it also opens you up to the possibility of being unable to tech at all, either causing you to eat the rest of a combo or get knocked down and be forced into a low jump mixup.

 

Again, it's not that 1F techs don't exist right now. It is definitely possible to tech on the first possible frame even by accident. That is just the thing, though; it's not really expected that you'd do it. It's hard to get a 1F input for anything, let alone a 1F input during a combo that you probably don't even expect to be dropped. Likewise, if you can get it, it can sometimes throw your opponent off guard, though as I explained before it does often times put you in the bad position of being above your opponent (which is especially bad if he still has his double jump option).

 

Now we can cover a little bit as to why this is so much different from the same situation happening in Blazblue or Persona. In those games, throws have a significant amount of startup. I don't recall P4's offhand but BB I know is 7F. That's slower than a lot of air normals, is it not? So you can theoretically beat a throw with a j.A/B, if you so wished to. Not to mention the generous tech window on throws in BB.

 

Xrd, on the other hand, has 0F throws. They beat meaties, so they're definitely going to beat anything you throw out in the air (unless, of course, it's throw invincible). Xrd currently doesn't have throw techs either, so there goes that line of defense. Lastly, Xrd also has YRC, which will slow you down as well as eat your input, which would make any attempt to mash out of a reset a moot point anyways.

 

Which goes back to my original point at the very beginning of this discussion: it's not a meaningful defensive option to be able to consistently tech out at the first possible frame. If anything, you are making it easier for people to hit you after your air tech, because they can start throwing in option selects to beat it at certain points of their combo. Which turns it into a horrible option in any situation except when the opponent has dropped a combo either at a point where he can't OS, or where he's so far away that teching a few frames later would be irrelevant anyways.

 

I would like to think that this makes everything as clear as can be. If you don't get it right now, I don't know what to tell you, man. Come back at a later date and see if it makes sense then.

[NecroTheReaper]

I will say the part about being able to mash out of a reset in BB because throws are 7f is extremely ignorant, because these situations are still meaty. You could theoretically have your grab hit them on the first frame possible, but even if you're late, as long as its not a DP you could still throw them without the risk of mashing if done properly.

Also... saying you'll hit people with resets more frequently because you've given them more control over their character in a hold to tech situation is a HUGE insult to anyone who's ever played a fighting game seriously. Thats all I'm really gonna say about that.

[qwerty]

Even if you are somehow at -3 or worse after an air tech, you still have one of the most generous throw tech windows of any fighting game currently on the market.

 

You are clearly not understanding what I'm saying. In regards to having more control, well, maybe you should learn how to play the game before you demand that it changes to suit your shortcomings. I think you'll find that you already have all the control you could ever need.

[NecroTheReaper]

That may be, but its still your attempt at offense, and then you have TRM setups in BB that you can do for people expecting an air grab reset

But... you're entire argument was "maybe you'll miss that first frame that people are fishing for if you mash to tech". Saying that its completely random as to what actual frame you wake up, thus they cant just OS it. But in these situations, you deserve to be caught if you're mashing tech. Otherwise, no one wises up and is like "hmm... I better just eat the combo". This is a risk-reward moment the defender has control over. They might intentionally tech into the reset under the basis that they be put in a better situation (I can only see thid being useful for characters who can end air juggles into a KD setup, IE Elphelt).

Dont discount a player's ability to learn and hide behind a move's marginal randomness as a means of safety.

[redsilversnake]

There's nothing to get. I'm repeating myself, but nothing you wrote demonstrates that there would be significant difference. Yes, teching on the first available frame would make tech resets more consistent, but again, that's why players would learn to delay their techs. They would have to start taking gambles on teching ASAP to avoid a black-beat combo or delaying to avoid a reset, while their opponent would have to take a gamble on finishing but possibly dropping their combo or intentionally dropping it to get a reset, which, again, is already the case. Furthermore, slightly different timings would still exist, because no one will have the exact same timing on delayed techs every single time. I could write more, but it's very late here and I'm getting too tired to keep this up.

Also, just one last thing, no one's asking for hold-to-tech to "suit our shortcomings." Putting aside how condescending that comment is, mash-to-tech is simply unintuitive. Very few people are able to utilize it with the control you say it offers, while most others are left sometimes getting hit with black-beat combos despite trying to tech out. And considering how much stronger even air knockdowns are in GG compared to BB or P4U, that can be kind of a big deal in any match. If hold-to-tech can prevent that kind of situation without having too much of an effect otherwise, then there remains no reason not to include it.

[Dude Butts]

specific teching = learn your opponent's combos, be forced to pay attention, heightened cognizance of exactly where and when you will be should the tech come out

 

buffered teching = I haven't learned the above yet, I think what I want is to always get out of a black beat combo but I really don't understand the big picture yet.  I'm not motivated to learn things to be successful at this game, I will call anything that necessitates mechanical ability and learning "unintuitive" and cite a bunch of games nobody cares about as evidence.  Please lower the bar so I can clear it.

 

what else is there to say?

[Destin]

 mash-to-tech is simply unintuitive. Very few people are able to utilize it with the control you say it offers, while most others are left sometimes getting hit with black-beat combos despite trying to tech out. And considering how much stronger even air knockdowns are in GG compared to BB or P4U, that can be kind of a big deal in any match. If hold-to-tech can prevent that kind of situation without having too much of an effect otherwise, then there remains no reason not to include it.

 

Mash to tech is not unintuitive.  Hitting a button, and having something happen is the most intuitive way to run anything.  It may not be as EASY, but it is considerably more intuitive. Holding a button that will escape on the first frame you get out of hitstun might be useful, but requires a good amount of reasoning to understand why it would work. 

 

"Mashing" to escape is a rather weak way to go about doing it.  Either you have pigeon holed yourself into only teching backwards with FD flashing a bunch of times, which is often very easy to tech throw, or you are going to pop forwards with a P or H-throw attempt randomly, very prone to being CH.  With a hold to tech, you can pop forwards or backwards at your leisure, even when you didn't expect the combo to drop.  This is fairly important because usually forwards tech is the stronger tech, but if you are mashing or even double tapping you may end up with that Jump p that gets CH which is often VERY dangerous.  With hold to tech, you don't have to worry about that added, often important issue.

 

Now, under the assumption that people eventually will not mash to tech (which they will eventually stop as they get better, it's sub-optimal),you will have generally one or two keyspots in a combo where you can tech.  Maybe a hard link, like a sol low dustloop into fafnir against a light character or something.  In these situations, the player being combo-ed should know that this is a drop spot, and be ready to input the tech.  The attacking player will also know, and either trust in his execution, or go for the tech trap.   This situation forces the defending player to be aware of these drop points through observing his opponents tendencies and weaknesses, and appropriately teching.  Why are we "deserved" a tech because the opponent didn't have perfect execution and dropped his combo, even if we are lazily tapping P now and then?  Shouldn't we earn the tech by having better execution than our opponent?

 

A second point the hold to tech becomes interesting is in the non critical combo spots.  If you have dissuaded the opponent from mashing tech, you may go for intentional black beat combos that open up larger combo routes at points that aren't traditionally difficult spots.  This would catch an opponent sleeping at the wheel and reward creativity.  With hold to tech, it would be a simple relatively safe forwards tech.  Can this be throw baited, sure!  But it loses the CH possibility, which is pretty crucial.

 

 

I am not arguing guilty gear may or may not be a better game with hold to tech, I am not sure.  What I am sure about, is that it is not as simply black and white as "hold to tech is definitively superior in every way".  It may seem that way at a lower to mid level, but this is one of the best teams in fighting games creating this game who have within their own company hold to tech systems.  I'm sure they considered it, and decided for this game it was inferior.

 

 

@Throw techs: With dizzy (XX #R Slash at least), I would sometimes have the fish covering me, sometimes not.  But it didn't change that there was a break in action when the throw break happens, then 30 or so frames later it continues.  When I actually LAND the throw, there is a conclusion, and then a movement towards the next stage of the play, so to speak.  So while this might not be a huge decrease in pacing, it is A decrease in pacing, and I was arguing the questionable upside does not outweight that.

[SoWL]

I'm not motivated to learn things to be successful at this game, I will call anything that necessitates mechanical ability and learning "unintuitive" and cite a bunch of games nobody cares about as evidence.  Please lower the bar so I can clear it.

 

what else is there to say?

At least that last part of your title is true.

[Dude Butts]

oh it's all true