[CT-CS2] Jin Block strings, frame traps, gimmicks, etc.

[grimlock]

A thread to discuss block strings, frame traps, gimmicks, tricks. SHTKN MOD MESSAGE: This thread may seem disjointed for the few page or so, but that's because I merged 3 threads into one.

[grimlock]

AH! I suppose a few to start the thread off wouldn't be a bad idea. When I form a block string, I try to leave as little room as possible for my opponent to do anything. I don't have very many good block strings, but here is a start to the topic. A,B(2), 6C, Ice Blade A: In between the second hit of B and 6C there are only a few frames frames on standing block where the opponent can act. A well timed move like Inferno Divider, Violent Ice, or something else with the correct attribute or invincibility can interrupt this consistently, but it feels like the window is very very tiny. Cancel 6C into Ice Blade A asap and it feels vulnerable to the same things listed above. Ending this gives you a +1 frame advantage. WOO. In either weak spot, it seems like the opponent does not have enough time to react appropriately, but prediction could screw this over. A,B,C,D: Eh. This one is pretty good, but I can never think of anything to follow it up with. It feels like if you dash cancel ASAP you are still at a frame disadvantage sooo . . . . /shrug. Following up with Ice blade of any sort, and your opponent can jump right over that to score a counter blow. Any suggestions for safer follow ups? If someone neutral techs ( i don't mean standing up ) in front of you, there is good opportunity to force someone to block a 6D which leaves you with a +12 frame advantage. Usually the distance forces me into using B(once), C, D, but I believe there might be something better to follow up with. And thats all I have for now.

[Killey]

While these aren't necessary block strings it's sort of a list of things can do off of simple block strings and gives you an idea of what to do for his mix up game. 2A, 2B, 5C -> from here Jin can do the following 1) 3C - Leaves Jin pretty vulnerable and you have few follows ups after this 2) 2C - can be jump cancelled or go itno 5D for a bit of safety 3) 5D - simple safety ender that can be special cancelled. If you are in the corner you can follow up with 236A, 2D, 5C, 5D 4) IAD 236D - You are looking for a cross up at this point 5) 214A - Unsafe on high level play as it can be IB'd and punished 6) Rapid Cancel after 214A/B/C into hi/low/throw mixups 7) j.B/j.C - Overhead options 8) 6B - Good move to try and get back in if your opponent is barrier guarding. It has low invincibility but is vulnerable to hi attacks and can be punished. Special Canceable as well. 9) TK 236A/B/C/D 10) 623A/B/C/D AKA Fubuki - basically, you are trying to accomplish a frame trap scenario and bait out punishable moves into a DP that on CH will combo in the corner or followed up with Ice Wave Super. 11) 6D - Has huge startup frames but if you space yourself correctly after pressuring your opponent in the corner he/she will have to either have to move up to hit you or have a fast good range normal/special to CH you on reaction. Otherwise, they'll have to block giving you frame advantage and allows you to follow up for even more pressure. Risky option and shouldn't be used too often. Pressure Options 2: 5B (2 hits) - The 2nd hit of 5B sucks in your opponent and leaves on 0f when blocked. It's a frame trap for opponents who want to tech roll behind you as the 2nd hit of 5B will hit them from behind. The 2nd hit of 5B can be IB'd and punished so mix it up a little. 5B is one of his better pressure options but Barrier Guards ruin the distance. From 5B we have these options: 1) 5B x N - don't expect this to work really well your opponent can barrier guard to push you away and at best you want to do 2-3 of these in certain situations. Better option if your opponent has no Barrier Guard or has bursted. 2) Throw - that's right 5B is throw chainable but don't use this too often. Too easy to tech out of the throw on high level play and you've lost all momentum. 3) A/B/C/D Fubuki - Use the frame trap to bait out moves that can be punished with Fubuki and nail a CH. 4) 6B - the hop that looks like it's an overhead but it's not. Goes over low moves and combos on normal hit and CH. CH will lead into an air combo. Careful how many times you throw this out as your opponent can do a fast normal that hits high and tag you out of the air or even counter air throw you. It's a good way to get back in when you've been pushed out with barrier guard. Can be special cancelled with 236A/B/C/D. Leaves you at 0f on block so no distinct advantage when you land. This is why I like to do a 2nd 6B on occassion as fast moves for most characters will hit low giving you a CH as 6B goes over it. 7) IAD Air 236D 8) IAD j.D - cross up but terribly unsafe when blocked/whiffed. Crouching opponent are harder to hit with this. Be ready to Rapid Cancel if you botch this or use 236D in the air to try for a mixup. 9) j.B/j.C - Overhead option and you can jump cancel them into j.B, j.C for mind games. Doing a late j.B will be a cross up. 10) 5C or delay after 5B and any C move - standard gatling but gives you safe options. ------>5D - standard block string that leaves you relatively safe unless your opponent IB's it. You could dash cancel into 2A but you're at -1f after the dash cancel. ------>IAD j.B, j.C - overhead options and gets you in close. You can go back into 5B after j.C ------>3C - go back to pressure string 1 to see what you can do for follow ups. Honestly, all of his pressures strings are just variations of these enders. Once you get knock downs you can start doing oki games. In the corner you have pressure options with 236D or 236C (on oki) and then going into one of those pressure options/mix ups or add in a throw once in a while. Example of Corner pressure: 2A, 2B, 5C, IAD j.B, j.C, land, 5B, 6B, j.B, j.A, land, 2B, 5B, 6B, 2A, dash, throw etc... You obviously have to make modifications depending on whether your opponent barrier blocks or not. The hard part is being creative with the mix up and see what will work on your opponent. You want to be constantly looking at your opponents reactions. Perhaps you want to end with 3C and then try to bait into a Fubuki. The thing with Jin is that his pressure strings aren't that great and he doesn't have the greatest hi-low mix up game and it actually gets predictable to a point where low barrier guard screws with his pressure strings. From what I've seen in higher level play the way to make his offensive better when your opponent goes on the defensive is actually taking some risks with his pressure strings to try and bait out certain things. For example, you can do 5C, 6C on block. Typically, this is incredibly unsafe for Jin as he's minus frames at this point; however, you can use this knowledge to bait out a CH from your opponent by doing 623D after 6C to capitalize on the startup invicibility frames. You just have to constantly mix things up and give your opponent a false sense of security when blocking against Jin so when you do for those risky plays they pay off rather than back firing on you.

[Kirah]

I myself play a very aggressive corner pressure Jin, utilizing my drive attacks to force a reaction out of my opponent out of desperation from getting their guard broken. As well as i'm heavy on the J.B > J.A whiff games. Some of the block strings I use are the following as well as i'll add in some of the mixups I utilize. Of course they're if the opponent doesn't green block you all day. These are also personal guard strings, even though they cost at most 50% heat, but they can be mixed up easily. Block strings: #1. 5A > 5B(2) > jc > J.B > J.A ( whiff) > J.B > jc > J.D > 236D etc... #2. 5A > 5B(2) > jc > J.B > J.A (Whiff) > 66 > J.B > J.C > land > 2A... Concerning mixups there's a lot of options that can be used for either netting damage or jacking up guard libra the choice is purely yours. Also it has to go with your play style in my opinion Jin can pressure really heavily except at the cost of heat.

[bbq sauce]

I disagree with taking risks.. This game has too many defensive options that let the defending player escape without taking many risks, so taking risks on offense isn't worth it because smart players will wait you out. I agree his hi-low game suffers with only 1 (slow, unsafe) standing overhead.. But he has other ways to keep them on their toes. A lot of his gatlings can be done really late, and make for good frame traps.. Following 5B into 5C almost anything you gatling to can be done late and snag a CH against people who are quick to try and press buttons when it looks like you ended your string. All of which can lead to a combo/knockdown, some of which can deal damage in 3-3.5k range. Eating combos for trying to poke out of block strings also trains them to sit still, and allows for you to cut a string short up close, and dash in with something fast like 5A/2A, to keep from being pushed out. Spending 50% on C fubuki RC in situations where you are nuetral on block or at a negative, but still safe, static difference will keep them honest when trying to escape. And let's you be more liberal with gapping your pressure together. Since they'll be fearing that DP when you have the meter to make it safe. This also allows you to mix in throws after things like 6B and 5B (make sure 5B actually recovers first).. Use throws sparingly, as the game has an easy option select of down-back + ABC that will tech throws if you attempt one / FD if you don't. However constant use of this will deplete their Barrier gauge, so keep that in mind as well. FDing isn't that big of a concern IMO,a s the majority of his jc'able normals can be jc'ed on hit and block. Whereas some other characters normals can only be jc'ed on hit.. Allowing for you to IAD when pushed out to keep up pressure and can also catch them off guard when in close if they get too complacent crouching. This is also good as anti-IB> reversal. If you're doing your gatlings late and see an IB you can just jc FD rather than gatling your next move if you smell a reversal. 236D and j236D both let you gap pressure well from a distance, but at the cost of meter. In the corner being pushed out a bit isn't as big of a deal either because 5D has a huge hit box and can keep them on the ground, but has to be done preemptively, which is ok, because it only becomes unsafe if it's IB'ed AND dash cancelled.. The dash cancel can be done fairly late as well, so, you can actually confirm if they IB/chicken blocked it, and proceed. If they block it jumping you can cancel to 623A/B which have to be IB'ed or FD'ed in the air, but generally brings them back to the ground. If they block standing, and you have the meter 236D can keep them locked down, or you can simply wait and react to what they do from there. Patient players that are good at blocking throws can give problems, due to the fact that actually scoring a hit during block strings will usually come from frame trapping, and a patent player won't fall for this. However, they have to escape sooner or later, or have their barrier depleted or be guard broken. tl;dr ver. + you can freestyle the timing on your gatlings for frame traps + good amount of your main ground normals can be jc'ed for mix up/closing gaps/safety + 236D/j236D are good for closing gaps + C DP RC is a good tool to keep them honest where you lack frame advantage, but aren't quite punishable + you have a lot of options to keep them sitting still in order to reset your position and keep pressure going + sooner or later they have to act or risk having their barrier drained / guard broken -Your high / low game is pretty ineffective outside of reset situations - Your overall offense can be pretty tension reliant in order to gap pressure and instill a healthy fear of your DP for more leeway in neutral situations. - Patient players will wait out your frame traps, use FD/IB to create gaps and make an escape - All of what I wrote above is a lot easier to say than to do vs smart opponents *sidenote for the people that I actually play with, I swear one day I will actually apply the shit that's in my head to my game, instead of doing the same predictable strings.

[filphil]

Just letting yourself delay a certain button so you can trap them is alot tougher when you're in the heat of a fight man. You'll get there some day, as will I!

[Kirah]

Damn straight BBq Sauce we both have the same problem implementing our knowledge even though you just opened my eyes a bit more. Though how I utilize it is of course different from yours. I pressure heavy and use block strings and projectiles to jack up libra over time and build up my heat gauge. Though there are some intricacies of the game that leave me at a loss it's either that or my controller and I hope it's the latter. In the corner, if you've been controlling the match TK 236D and 236D controls the corner. Jin may need some creativity in his strings and mixups, but his ability to control a match is also very good. With a simple move he can easily control the match and bring it into his favor even though some of the other cast have a better options. He also has good space control that's what's definitely needed Jin has a plethora of tools that can be used to attain said mastery.

[Darcius]

So, they're standing up over top of you and you don't want to go with one of your more goofy, stupid gimmick options. (everybody has some of these.)* What do you do? Well, you can do a meaty 5B. Lets look at why. First of all, 5B prorates deliciously. I don't care how bad you are at landing the combos, if someone is stupid enough not to block on wakeup or wakeup DP then they are going to eat one. Regardless, you probably shouldn't even care about the rest of the match, (almost) nothing you can do could possibly lose you a match against someone who doesn't even block on wakeup. So, like 99% of half-respectable players, they block. Okay. Thats fine. Thats why we went with 5B in the first place. Because you have OPTIONS. What are they? Well... You can do a few things. You can cancel late into 5C and follow up strong if you get a counterhit. You can follow up pretty decently regardless, but even without a counterhit you didn't really risk anything to begin with. You can immediately jumpcancel 5B as soon as they get sucked in appropriately and go for the fastest air normal you can do and try to get a freeze off a simple aerial gatling. And freeze is always good. (Except for when its not, but I'm not going to cover that right now.) Lets say that the opponent is getting used to you doing the overheads and late 5C all day. So they block. Some characters can even block low and sink under your high options (well, lets not talk about 6a) and I'll cover that later. If you don't feel like reading any more then to sum it up then you're pretty much just fucked. Well, there are a few things you can do. If they blocked an aerial then jumpcancel for one more try and then get out of there if it doesn't go well. You can get out by air backdashing or just cancelling early into an icecar and driving away. If they blocked a late 5C, you can try tacking on a 6C Dashcancel and then either reset or go for a mixup depending on how gutsy you feel. I also use this for a few stupid gimmicks that I probably shouldn't (like random late 623D if I have them in the corner). There are a few characters you probably won't want to play chicken with, like Ragna (5B will eat you alive for this shit). So, you're playing against Tager. Or Hakumen. Or about 40% of the cast who you can hit reliably with the aerial mixup. They're gonna see that 5b go off and block high. They'll probably be ready to break any throws you have, or probably even counterthrow you depending on the matchup. What does this mean? Its time for 3c. We've all seen the OTG done. And you might have had trouble landing it in a real match because you push the enemy out too far before 3C. Well, this is the glory of 5B. If you give it even a few more frames than minimum, you'll have your enemy in prime range for a 3c->2b off the ground, and its fair sailing with the rest of that combo from there. Since you have them routinely blocking at this point, it wouldn't be a bad idea to go for a throw or two. If they break it, then make sure you reset the match before you get IAD'd in on. It would suck to lose momentum just because you stood still and blocked right after a throw break. Ofcourse, there are exceptions, but I'm assuming you know a bad time to get out when you see one. Sometimes, you play vs characters with low crouching (and often even standing) hitboxes. We're talking Noel here. And a few others, too. Sometimes, no matter how well you seem to time it your overheads just aren't going to land. Obviously speaking, all this means is that you'll have a harder time with the matchup because you lack a reliable overhead. Keep on truckin and work the late 5C, your throw, and your twitchy mixup games. Maybe even icecar. I don't care if you win or not. * Mine is a 2369D to beat impending DPs. I get paranoid really easily. Yes, I am aware I should just block.

[Wind Owl]

This thread is awesome, thanks guys! :O

[Darcius]

NP man.

[Kirah]

Jin's normal combo is a staple, seeing as it's a double edged sword. Finishing most ground combos with 214B or 214C which connects off of 3C setups okizeme and many different mixups. Such as 5B, or depending on the situation 2A mixups, to keep the pressure heavily tacked on. There has been an instance where I IABD (instant air back dashed) into 236D upon a front rolling opponent who was caught by one of the blades as the opponent rolled past me and was pushed back in front of me and reset for more mixups. I can't stress creativity enough when playing any type of fighting games, also another mixup I created even though it's risky. 5B(2)>J.c (passed the opponent) > J.B (Crossup) > j.a (whiff) > AD (backwards)> J.B > J.C Or a plethora of many different options it's risky, but really quite tricky to perform, and quite tricky in its self.

[Coren]

I tend to make heavy use of 5B(2), It's frame neutral and the second hit has vacuum which let's you do mixups. You can use the vacuum to pull your opponent into a tick-throw setup; and then mix it up with 5A (looks vaguely like his throw animation) or a delayed attack to draw a reaction out of them. If your opponent has his back to the corner a 5B(2) will create space behind him which you can use to do a crossup. i.e. 5B(2) 5C IAD j236D / jB / jD. You can mix it up by not crossing them up if they start to expect it. I like 236D; it cranks the guard Libra quite a bit and gives you plenty of time to do mixups / pressure strings.

[Kirah]

Yeah I agree, both J.236D and 236D are great gives you a lot of time to play around with and with the proper spacing "The world is your oyster" so to speak. Even though I want to add more crossups to my game. I find myself using J.B as mainly as an air to air and air to ground, I want to get the full potential out of my move. My main cross up setups, they're also can come from many different block strings and the spacing is lenient, J.D is more lenient then J.B. 5A > 5B(2)> 5C > 236D > IAD > early J.B (crossup) 5A > 5B (2) > 5C > 236D > IAD > J.D or J.D > Ice B or C (Just in case a failed attempt) Theory: You maybe able to do J236D, 236 B or A after a blocked J.D this is all in theory though. Edit: I tested my theory and come up with "Double Crossups", you can either instant air J.B or use J.C depending on the situation and crossup, but also 236D and the 3rd blade will crossup the opponent on the other side. It's also really quick so it's hard to block on reaction, it even works on green block. With barrier it's even more potent since Jin doesn't go to the other side of the opponent and the opposition is left in block stun so you can continue pressure and mixup. I'll try and make a video of it and post it, if it's still hard to understand. It can be implemented from a lot of situations but you have to play with the timing. So far i've only gotten it to work with 236D and i'm just testing the waters as is.

[Killey]

All good players know when to take risks, imo, and I believe it's a natural part of the game and Jin has a good hi-risk/hi-reward aspects to him especially when it comes to his corner game. I'm not saying be reckless and take unnecessary risks all the time but you need to be creative in your pressure/mix up game and sometimes taking those gambles make a huge difference. There risks for a reason and it's up to your judgment as a player as to when it's necessary to take those risks. The spacing of j.D is critical if you are attempting to use aerial 236D for cross up potential. It can easily backfire if you misjudge the distance of j.D and set you up for a big punish. However, proper spacing leads to great cross ups as well as good positoin for you. Your opponent is not really expecting 236D after a blocked j.D and is most likely aiming to punish you after the botched j.D attempt. It catches them off guard and you hit them with 236D and proceed with a standard combo that will give you oki games. Your opponent blocks 236D and you still are left in a decent position as when you do position this correctly will put you back into safety but not necessarily in a good position to mount an offense again.

[Kirah]

After much testing it doesn't work with J.D, but only J.B and J.C and can be used on normal block and increases in potency and mixup potential when the J.B and J.C is blocked. On barrier guard the opposition has a lot more guard stun so offense can essentially be remounted. This technique is more than just a crossup this adds a lot more to Jin's pressure and mixup game. Don't mean to toot my own horn >.>, I just need to test it in the midst of combat to give a more complete analysis on its effectiveness. Edit: Though Killey you are correct, but on normal block you can't remount an offense since it puts you back in front of the opponent. Though when barrier blocked you stay on the same side.

[Blue Ipod Nano]

how do you IAD?

[Kirah]

It's a fast input with a jump and a fast air dash, which is really low to the ground. Allowing you to use your aerials for pokes, mixups, block strings and combos.

[o m3gatron o]

insant air dash (IAD) this is preformed as followed ... when u input the game reads it as a also ....so when u hit u get the dash effect as well . i kno some might have all rdy knew that but w/e

[Kirah]

I've come to the level of competition where I need frame traps and more trickery, but my creativity lacks in this field saying as I never have made any and have nothing to go on. Does anyone have any advice that I can get a good idea on the direction to take in this creative process?

[Blue Ipod Nano]

insant air dash (IAD)

this is preformed as followed ... when u input the game reads it as a also ....so when u hit u get the dash effect as well . i kno some might have all rdy knew that but w/e

Thanks, so to IAD i just move my joystick in the 9 direction and then the 6 direction right?

[shtkn]

make sure you move the stick to neutral (5) before moving to 6

[bbq sauce]

Frame traps are kind of freestyle. Just set up a situation that might tempt them to press buttons, then make them pay for it.

[Killey]

I like using 5B for frame traps. 5B delay then any C based move (5C, 3C, etc...) or a throw after the 5B recovers.

[Killey]

What do you guys think about the block string used in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xg1SlGzB5Y

It's basically a ground string that ends in a close 5D, 236A, 2D. I've been testing it out and it's pretty vicious especially in the corner. 2D gives you frame advantage so it's a good frame trap tool but can also be followed up with other guard strings. Hell, in some cases I've been able to follow up with 5C, 5D, repeat the above guard string into guard crush scenarios. In the corner it seems like it gives Jin very good control as he can continously zone with 5B and punish IAD and random jumps with Fubuki. Of course, your opponent can IB those and find ways out but it seems to be a good guard string to throw out once in a while. Not something I want to use all the time as you sacrifice other pressure options that could lead into a hi/low mix ups but something to keep in mind.

[H-F Blade]

I recommend taking a look at the thread about blockstrings since the concept of frame traps is discussed there along with some specific examples.