[CT-CSE] Carl vs. Noel

[malelan]

this thread doesn't exist, and i have a few questions, hopefully someone can do a more formal writeup. Playing against a good Noel, i'm not even sure where to begin. but my problem is actually with the PSN/XBL trash Noels that spam drive mixup. if i get caught in a good drive combo, its 50% of my life as carl. If they play defensive, i'm negative warning WAY quicker. and it does 70% on a full drive combo. if i burst immediately on the begining of first drive combo, then i can't get hit for the rest of the round or i'm dead. is there some moves that are a little more proactive in poking her from distance so you can't get caught in drive loop? 5C seems to work if she does almost anything but the 3D overhead. getting hit with 3C into drive combo is killing me too though. where should i be trying to keep nirvana in this matchup?

[E.Y.E.W.T.K.A.S]

Learn to summon and never do HcF+D unless you are a full screen away from her, even then don't. I try to spam 8D at time to cut her air dashes, 623D works as well. Always block low and watch for her overheads or throws. Barrier like nothing if she throws her gun there is a small window where you can hit her with 5B. Mind you anytime you see her "reload" her gun is a window where you can hit her, aside from after she does her super. In fact if she supers do not try to punish her, its a super safe move for Noel.

[feri]

How is noels 236236d safe..? Is there something this move does on block that I don't know that makes it safe?

[E.Y.E.W.T.K.A.S]

I have never been able to ever hit her after it. I use to play Ragna, which has a normal run and I reached and she hit me first. She recovers really fast from it.

[Meaty Moments]

How is noels 236236d safe..? Is there something this move does on block that I don't know that makes it safe?

I don't know the frame data for sure, but i have no trouble punishing it. b/c it hits in such small bits of damage, the guard stun is minimal, so if you are an IAD away i usally have enough time to slam her with a CH J.C, 5B, 6B, 623C, 5B, j.B, j.B, j.C.

but only on the ground one though...

[malelan]

thanks, i have a huge issue with negative warning with noel as well though i play more defensively against her because i'm afraid of eating a huge drive combo, but i end up with negative warning too fast. how do you safely keep up the pressure?

[E.Y.E.W.T.K.A.S]

Random Claps, IAD with j.A spam sometimes is good, try baiting into your loops with 6D covered 236A/B setups. With Carl you really don't have much defense, you gotta have to find a hole in her game and mount the offense. You really need Nirvana around and get those ground loops going working towards your Clap Trap. Most Noels will just ignore Nirvana by dashing past her and dealing with you on the far side of the screen, you either need to learn to summon or force Noel into your position.

[Mikachiru]

Is it me, or does Noel seem to go through 5B when she's using her drive?

[ZONG_one]

Is it me, or does Noel seem to go through 5B when she's using her drive?

Invincibility frames. She goes through a lot of stuff. That's why I told you to backdash the drives and 5C->6D. XD.

[Mikachiru]

Invincibility frames. She goes through a lot of stuff. That's why I told you to backdash the drives and 5C->6D. XD.

Really? I almost always punish her 6C (the spinning gun attack) with 5B after guarding...

[ZONG_one]

Really? I almost always punish her 6C (the spinning gun attack) with 5B after guarding...

The spinning gun drive is very punishable on block.

Might I recommend (Instead of 5B):

- 2A, 2B, 3C, IAD AlleCan Summon, Throw loop. (Once you learn the set up.)

- 2A, 2B, 3C, Summon-vivace A-2B, 2C, Clap loop. (I don't know the particulars on when this works, but sometimes I get it. It helps to use this if the IAD summon is a little too hard. You get the same effect.)

And if your heart is set on 5B, then:

- 5B, 6B, 623C, Summon, 9B+C, walk nirvana closer behind you, 8D (hits after your throw springs them up,) Vivace A, 2C, clap loop.

Basically, counter what you can, but make the most of it. Yeah, 5B works. You can 5B, 6B, Summon-IAD allecan crossup- 5B, 6B, 6D-> Punch loop. But that's impractical at that time, I would think.

And you could 5B, 6B, 623C, 5B, j.A, j.B, dj.B, Allegretto, but why take that little damage when you could have a loop off of the counter?

I dunno. Try some of this out, it might help you.

[Zoogstin]

From what I heard its only unsafe if she doesn't cancel it into anything. If she does cancel it into something then you can't punish her.

[ZONG_one]

From what I heard its only unsafe if she doesn't cancel it into anything. If she does cancel it into something then you can't punish her.

RC maybe? How can she cancel it into something else?

(Besides DD.) <-- I've eaten that a couple times, if I'm not mistaken.

Command grab? I don't know... If you're going for CH 2A, that won't hit you anyway.

[Mikachiru]

The spinning gun drive is very punishable on block.

Might I recommend (Instead of 5B):

- 2A, 2B, 3C, IAD AlleCan Summon, Throw loop. (Once you learn the set up.)

- 2A, 2B, 3C, Summon-vivace A-2B, 2C, Clap loop. (I don't know the particulars on when this works, but sometimes I get it. It helps to use this if the IAD summon is a little too hard. You get the same effect.)

And if your heart is set on 5B, then:

- 5B, 6B, 623C, Summon, 9B+C, walk nirvana closer behind you, 8D (hits after your throw springs them up,) Vivace A, 2C, clap loop.

Basically, counter what you can, but make the most of it. Yeah, 5B works. You can 5B, 6B, Summon-IAD allecan crossup- 5B, 6B, 6D-> Punch loop. But that's impractical at that time, I would think.

And you could 5B, 6B, 623C, 5B, j.A, j.B, dj.B, Allegretto, but why take that little damage when you could have a loop off of the counter?

I dunno. Try some of this out, it might help you.

Is the spinning gun attack the only one that's punishable?

Thanks for the combos! For some reason, I don't have enough 2A in my diet(because most of the times I think it won't hit)...

[ZONG_one]

Is the spinning gun attack the only one that's punishable?

Thanks for the combos! For some reason, I don't have enough 2A in my diet(because most of the times I think it won't hit)...

I'm prettu sure 2A scales your damage quite a bit, but any damage out of pressure is good damage, esp with a reset->any loop.

I don't know about her other drive attacks. I'm sure quite a few are punishable on block.

The one that comes to mind first would be her flash kick.

[Zoogstin]

RC maybe? How can she cancel it into something else?

(Besides DD.) <-- I've eaten that a couple times, if I'm not mistaken.

Command grab? I don't know... If you're going for CH 2A, that won't hit you anyway.

my bad I'm thinking of the wrong move.

[Senovit]

Careful about autopiloting a punish for drive 6C. Canceling into 2D will stop any counter throw/2a, and since Carl is rather short, probably 5B too. Basically all of her drives are punishable, you just have to watch out for 2D/28D.

[Niko]

Newcomer Carl here who can perform the basic sandwich and clap loop most of the time. I win some and I lose some, but I have absolutely no idea how to deal with constant pressure in general and with Noel's drive combos in particular. I once lost to a level 12 Noel who did almost nothing but spam her drive from a full screen away... I keep reading about how it's a scrubby tactic and easy to counter, and I've tried applying the things mentioned in this thread, as well as experimenting on my own. Poking her out of the drive combo is really unsafe and gets me punished more often than not. Blocking crushes my guard libra before I can say "Deus Ex Nirvana," and barrier block pushes her out of my reach -- I find myself not being able to punish her even when she reloads. I can block her drive mixups without getting hit pretty reliably if lag isn't too bad, but I have no idea how to get an opening. Not to mention I'll receive negative penality real fast if I play defensively. The only thing that works for me somewhat is dashing away and starting a new attack/setup from afar. As a result, I play mainly hit and run against Noel now and don't even attempt to set up loops anymore. I'm just too scared of her drive demolishing my life bar. I'm obviously doing something wrong, so I would appreciate if one of the more seasoned players could explain, step by step, how to counter Noel's drive spam mixups as Carl specifically. When to block, when to counter, and which attacks to use in what situation. Thanks for reading.

[Mikachiru]

Newcomer Carl here who can perform the basic sandwich and clap loop most of the time. I win some and I lose some, but I have absolutely no idea how to deal with constant pressure in general and with Noel's drive combos in particular. I once lost to a level 12 Noel who did almost nothing but spam her drive from a full screen away...

I keep reading about how it's a scrubby tactic and easy to counter, and I've tried applying the things mentioned in this thread, as well as experimenting on my own. Poking her out of the drive combo is really unsafe and gets me punished more often than not. Blocking crushes my guard libra before I can say "Deus Ex Nirvana," and barrier block pushes her out of my reach -- I find myself not being able to punish her even when she reloads. I can block her drive mixups without getting hit pretty reliably if lag isn't too bad, but I have no idea how to get an opening. Not to mention I'll receive negative penality real fast if I play defensively. The only thing that works for me somewhat is dashing away and starting a new attack/setup from afar. As a result, I play mainly hit and run against Noel now and don't even attempt to set up loops anymore. I'm just too scared of her drive demolishing my life bar.

I'm obviously doing something wrong, so I would appreciate if one of the more seasoned players could explain, step by step, how to counter Noel's drive spam mixups as Carl specifically. When to block, when to counter, and which attacks to use in what situation.

Thanks for reading.

Welcome to the Carl board/Dustloop! Join the CCSG or el- *shot*

Yeah, spamming sucks. :/

When she starts to spam from far away, just dash back and wait for her to come closer. It helps if she goes by Ada while thinks she can reach you and stuff (this has happened to me and I love looping them afterwards...). If they hit you with their D, then block high, unless you see them trying to hit you low. Wait for Noel to finish then strike!! XD

Also, if she hits you with D~ 6C, punish it with 5A (I use 5B). Hope this helps.

[Zoogstin]

IBing and backdashing out is definitely a good strat. I quite often have to wait for the block string to end. Sometimes I'm able to jump block just to avoid her mixup game. Also 6A will take out the annoying overhead she does when she jumps in the air in an arc back down on you. Unfortunately you can't 6A it on reaction. More like anticipation.

[Niko]

If they hit you with their D, then block high, unless you see them trying to hit you low. Wait for Noel to finish then strike!! XD

I usually block her strings, but I don't know how to follow up. She's often out of range for me to attack while she reloads (especially if I used barrier guard). Exactly what do you punish with after a finished drive combo?

Also 6A will take out the annoying overhead she does when she jumps in the air in an arc back down on you. Unfortunately you can't 6A it on reaction. More like anticipation.

Yeah, I've been trying to employ 6A, but more often than not she stuffs that with her other moves. It comes down to a guessing game, and not one in Carl's favor it seems to me.

This is how my Noel friend usually beats me: Approach with either 236C or 5D crossup from the air, follow up with 3C or 5D/2D. Of course Nirvana is really helpful with catching Noel out of the air, but eventually she'll get through my defense. I block the initial air attack, and then it's guessing time for me again. Throw works nicely against her 3C, and 6A stuffs the 2D, but which one do I use? If I pick wrong, I eat a high damage combo. Is there something obvious I'm overlooking?

[Senovit]

Block both. Throw after the 2D until she starts following up with 28D. 28D is vulnerable on block though, so let him know that 2D'ing you is going to be risky. Don't bother barrier guarding during her drive string since you won't be able to push her far enough to force a whiff. Instant block into a jump if you can, normal block probably works too since Noel drives for the most part have pretty bad frame disadvantage. Then you're out of her string while she's directly below you. Watch for 28D and hit her with a jump in into a combo. Punish 3C with anything you like, that move has terrible recovery.

[Kyle]

I baited noel's ground super last night, once I put myself in position for a big big punish she Rapid canceled to escape. It was completely my fault too. her bullets touched nirvana from a FULL STAGE LENGTH giving her the opportunity to punish. I really should have NOT ACTIVATED THE ROBOT.

[Konton]

Really? I almost always punish her 6C (the spinning gun attack) with 5B after guarding...

Drive 6c frame traps into 5b with a 4 frame hole. Trying to punish 6c is going to get you combo'd and not punishing it is going to get you mixed up or guard crushed. =p

Try and stop Noel from going into 6c at all as it's super unsafe to get into, but gives great reward on block and hit. If they're doing 5d -> 6c then it's a 13 frame hole and you can hit them out of it. And as I keep telling people, Noel isn't at a disadvantage when she catches you blocking because she still has frame traps, spacing, special cancels, RC, and a dp (28d). It's all a mix-up and you have to react and predict.

[feri]

Jump barrier unless you feel like getting beaten out by noels D ghetto nonsense.