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LM_Akira

[Accent Core] Order-Sol Matchup Thread

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So yeah, time for a new matchup thread. A copy and paste from the other thread:

Before putting up any major matchup discussions, a re-post from this:

http://kayin.pyoko.org/GuiltyGear/actiers.html

In other words, in Accent Core, Order-Sol's matchups look something like this:

FAVOURABLE MATCHUPS

vs Sol: 5.5 - 4.5

vs Millia: 6.0 - 4.0

vs Chipp: 6.0 - 4.0

vs Jam: 5.5 - 4.5

vs Anji : 6.0 - 4.0

vs Dizzy: 5.5 - 4.5

vs I-No: 6.0 - 4.0

vs Bridget: 5.5 - 4.5

vs Robo-Ky: 5.5 - 4.5

BAD MATCHUPS

vs Faust: 4.5 - 5.5

vs Testament: 4.5 - 5.5

vs Zappa: 4.5 - 5.5

vs A.B.A.: 4.5 - 5.5

All other matchups are considered 5 - 5 (with the mirror matchup excluded).

Admitedly this is a few months old now but it's still useful to consult for the time being I think. Even with all his improvements Testament and Faust still remain difficult for Order-Sol...especially the way Testament is in AC.

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Hey guys, use this new thread to discuss how Order-Sol fights the rest of the cast in Accent Core. If people don't mind transferring info posted from the old thread that regarded Accent Core, I can delete those posts and keep everything separated. Some minor discussion to start off: Versus Testament is still a bitch of a fight. The good news is that the increased damage you deal makes it easier to play in a more conservative manner, which will make this matchup less of a headache. The loss of old BHB means that getting in from range is harder, use 5S(f) to poke and attempt to close the distance. It also works well against webs, as does j.P. The Ky matchup feels a LOT easier now. The improved sweep makes it much easier to get around Stun Edges and also beats 6P easily. 5HS CC works wonders against any air game and it kills Greed Sever. Fafnir through Stun Dippers for big damage. Most matchups are not as painful now due to HOS not only doing more damage but having pokes that cover certain zones better than he was able to in Slash.

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Might as well get this started.

Copy + Pasted + Edited slightly from the Slash Match-up Thread:

Vs. May

She received a tensionless damage options in ^C, HOS became a real char. May can't poke you with anything other than dolphins (in Greed Sever-esque fashion), 5HS, 3K, 2S and j.2HS. Anything else gets destroyed by 5K and 2P. May cannot anti-air you without committing herself (read: dolphin). 5S(f) beats/trades with dolphin from further out; a running 6P either CHs or puts you at neutral ground if she escapes (and starts your offense if she guards). May can't pick anything up after a 2S except a Dolphin; it just stops you from running in. J.HS beats her 6P and j.P beats her in the air. If the May you're fighting likes 3K, Fafnir and enjoy your CH or bait and score a 2D CH. If your May has a penchant for 5HS, don't throw lows and stick to 2S CC (not max range, or you'll get CH). J.2HS has always been a problem, but if she starts it from higher up you can either Storm Viper or GunBlaze and win.

May has no options on your wakeup. SV and GB eliminate anything that isn't 5K; 5HS beats beats 5K on wakeup (yes, it's hysterical). 5HS is always a threat, but if you learn to IB her options after it are limited to what you do. Charged 6HS is an overhead, but she doesn't get anything else after it except a dolphin (around 125 or so damage if you eat it).

If you have to guard, watch for the throw, keep in mind that vertical dolphins are ridiculous Greed Severs if you want to poke (they're freaking grounded and overheads ), and try don't poke after her 5HS. Her 5D/5D low is tricky to guard too. Fear the overhead more than the low in that situation and just watch for the fake. A good visual cue is that her spinning slows down slightly before the high hit even comes out (and she does another spin, as well) during the low variation.

Oh, and never Rock It to get in; you're just begging for a 6P to CH your ass.

Vs. Bridget

This match used to be annoying in Slash. Bridget could keep running away and zoning you and you just had to chase him down the entire match. Accent Core gave HOS four awesome counters to Bridget's zoning game, making this fight in HOS' favor as long as you can guard his mixup: 5S(f), new 5HS properties, 2D range, and Fafnir. 5S(f) and 5HS stop Bridget from jumping/rolling out of your offense while still allowing you to maintain control; 5S(f) also stuffs Bridget's 2S (which is still a problem when it comes to running/jumping in, but is really the only hassle in this fight). CH 5HS anti-air leads to MASSIVE DAMAGE on Bridget, so learn to love it. 2D beats out 5S(f) from Bridget or leaves you safe and with advantage as you duck under it (2D whiff recovers faster than 5S[f]). All of his other ground normals, excluding 3P, are destroyed by Fafnir, specifically Bridget's 2D (which stops most of your ground rush in). Bridget's 3P clashes with 2S and either clashes or loses to HOS 6P; it also either loses or trades with 5S(f) if done from far enough away, which is alright if you can shake decently (not crazy).

Bridget cannot anti-air you unless he *knows* you're jumping, so keep that in mind as you begin your offense. 2S is the most solid anti-air on Bridget's end against HOS, but, even with new CH properties, the follow-up can usually be teched. Bridget's 6P, which would usually net him his anti-air damage, gets beat by j.HS (still) for CH and slide launch. 6S as an anti-air is laughable and would only hit if you were jumping/IAD'ing back from out of just outside of Bridget's 2D range, which is a mistake in itself since Bridget controls that particular space rather well.

Bridget's mix-up and pressure are pretty much the same as they were in Slash. Being able to roll to a buffered Yo-Yo makes a few strings a little more intimidating and safe if you want to jump/poke, but HOS has GunBlaze to avoid rolling pressure on wake-up and SV to put fear into Bridget and force him to bait (giving you time to escape). Just keep in mind that silly console glitch with FB punching bear being invincible and watch for the high/low from either a jump situation or 6K. Bridget may also try to sneak in a tick throw now that they can RC for damage, so keep an eye out for those setups as well.

All in all: HOS deals much more damage than Bridget, and has way more options to net damage than Bridget can keep up with. Guard mix-up and poke smart and this fight isn't bad at all.

Vs. Anji

Whoo Anji lost his Autoguards :toot:. ^C Anji's anti-pressure options are *really* bad; getting in on him means you can stay in for quite a while. At least, until he tries to beat one of your pokes with his own (a bad idea). The biggest threat in this fight comes from Anji's 5P, 6P, 5S©, 5S(f) 2S, 2D and 5HS. 5P is a quick anti-air that will stop your jump-ins and can beat some of your rushing in. 6P will also stop you from barreling in at Anji; the Ch leads to good damage. 5S is a quick mid-range poke that can gatling to 5HS and lead to Anji's Fujin combos. 5S(f) is an okay anti-air if he throws it from far enough away; it's just too slow otherwise. 2S is a good ranged low that will net Anji a knockdown and stop a few of your pokes. 2D has great range and beats some of HOS' pokes as well. And 5HS still has beastly range which can net him a Fujin combo from almost half screen away.

Your savior(s) from all those nasty pokes are 2P, 2S, 5S(f), 2D, and Fafnir. 2P beats 5P and 2S, but loses to everything else. 2S beats 5P, 6P, and 2D, but can lose to Anji's 2S and his 5S if you try 2S from max range (aka Anji can throw out 5S first). 5S(f) is the weakest, only beating 5HS but good for keeping Anji honest and within your range. 2D beats 5P, 6P if close enough, 5S, and 5HS, but loses to the lows. Fafnir beats the lows and 5HS. A running GunBlaze can also beat 6P on reaction; it's pretty funny. 5HS used to be so bad for HOS in Slash; it stopped everything that wasn't a low with auto-guard, and it could beat 2D if you weren't all the way in on him. Thankfully it was toned down so that it's a mediocre mid-range poke. If the Anji you're fighting is still hooked on 5HS and 6HS as "pokes" then you get to beat it into them that this is Accent Core we're playing, autoguards don't exist anymore.

Anji's pressure was also nerfed extensively in Accent Core. Rin (HS follow-up after Fujin) leaves him at frame disadvantage, butterfly has more recovery leading to an easy excape/punish, and, most importantly, his main autoguards (6K, 5HS, 6HS) were toned down so that poking is actually an option (but poke carefully. The New K guard point leads to nasty damage if you're near the corner). Things to watch for are FB Rin (it's an overhead), FB butterfly (if they pressure butterfly you can pretty much always escape; just watch for it), and his stomps (tricky, but manageable). Stomps leave Anji with frame advantage, so do your best to either throw him out of them (manly, but a little too risky), or IB so that 5K beats anything he could follow up with. Watch for tick throws and instant Orb (overhead), and pretty much just wait out his pressure until you can find a big enough window to escape.

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I just wanna say great job so far. I needed some insight on HOS matchups. However I was just wondering on how HOS should manage his Charge meter vs [insert character]. I mean who should he be using lvl.1 moves against and which ones? I know GunBlaze lv.1 is staple but what else? recently I played a testy player who likes to do ALOT of f-ing webs, with the new charge keep feature I was thinking I might lv.1 BHB cuz its hitbox is so HUGE that it can be used as an Anti-Air but I remebered EXE beast....:sweatdrop: Requests: Axl, Baiken, Potemkin, Slayer,Zappa,ABA.

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5-5 is mirror match inclusive since mirror matchups are always 5-5 ;P

If you consult the table mirror matchups are excluded, probably because they come down to solely how well a player can use their character's strengths as opposed to what advantages a character has on paper to deal with another character.

If you were to play kaqn, the mirror matchup would NOT be 5-5 :P

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Ummm super bored so I guess I'll chime in with a few things(opinions of course). Hos has only 2 bad matches in AC. testament and eddie. the testament matchup is actually worse from slash because of lack of lvl 2 bhb which wiped out testament's traps. The matchup is bad because hos doesn't have a reliable way of keeping eddie off the top of the head. and once eddie gets the shadow hos doesn't have a real way of destroying the shadow(unlike in slash in which hos could bandit revovler over the shadow if timed right) without risking himself to knockdowns or wasting meter. matchups that are better from slash: Sol Ky Po venom slayer Anji These characters gave hos trouble in slash because Hos didn't have a midrange poke. those charcters could keep hos out all day and forced him to randomly jump in and hope they used the wrong anti-air.Anji used to be Hos's counter character(like 7-3 anji IMO) but since anji sucks now Hos is better by default =/. Charcters Hos still beats(either slight advantage or disadavantage): Bridget Chipp Millia Ino Dizzy Baiken these characters while for the most part does better on Hos because he's easier to Pin down(in slash you had to be wary of being to ambitous with mixups because of gunblaze trade). and these are characters that are based more so on oki than others (ino/millia/dizzy in particular) but Hos still hits those characters around 2 times a round.... Characters Hos still loses too(or loses too now); Zappa May Eddie testament

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Vs Millia

A link to some discussion to this match up from the Millia perspective:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2931

(2nd and 3rd posts mainly)

Some other things to mention:

Millia's FB ring stays out forever (41 active frames!) and vacuums on hit or block. It also launches for a combo on hit. If you hit her during the very first start up frames of the move the ring won't come out (similar to how fafnir can be stuffed by moves during early start up) but any later and the ring will still come out. In some cases she will be able to take the clash, recover and juggle you because you'll get hit and sucked into / juggled by the ring. The HS ring (delayed ring) also stays out for quite a while (33 active frames), something to bear in mind.

Since Millia can combo from her throw again, always try to be mindful of it. She has slightly less range on it than normal chars' throws (only 40 dots) but if she throws you and has a hairpin and / or 25% tension you're going to be in for a long combo. She can almost take you from one corner to the next and back into midscreen again if she has the resources. Roll > throw or turbo fall (from the air) > throw or any kind of tick attempts are things to look out for.

In the corner on wakeup, things to watch for are the HS or FB ring setups into low poke / overhead mix ups. Her effective overheads are:

6K (she does a handstand with her hair, fairly easy to spot as it's quite slow) and TK bad moon. Her 5D isn't that useful in her oki mixups as far as I can tell. Obviously look out for her jumping moves to if they're used close to the ground (her j.D has amazing range, I think she can combo after it on CH).

Her only low pokes are:

2K, 2S and 2D. Her 2S gatlings into 2HS for a free air (ADC) combo. 2D would just knock you down again and reset the pressure.

All forms of her rings can be blocked high or low so if you've got one in your face on wake up, the mix up comes from what Millia does next, which you simply have to react to. If she's knocked you down and set a FB ring, all she needs is 1 hit on you to start a combo in the corner (1 hit = hit by the FB ring = juggled into combo).

In midscreen she has similar options but she can also air dash over you and land to go high or low or even air dash one way then come back and land on the same side again, going high or low (similar to Dizzy's oki options). If there's FB ring above your head on wake up you really have to watch for the mixup, I've not tested it but I don't know what the best thing to do in this situation is.

Run-away Millia can be damn annoying as she's fast and has a double air dash, meaning you can be chasing her around the screen, depending on your opponent's style.

Having said all this, simple combos can reap crazy damage on Millia. I even started a Lv 2 TR combo once with 2K and still managed to do around 170 damage! Lv3 Rock It or Lv 3 BRP combos will always produce good results and after the BRP you can dash j.HS j.D ... straight away from the wall bounce.

Lv1 GB combos using dash 5S© feel a little tight because she's so light so I currently tend to use 5HS into the high jump. The basic corner throw (ending with Lv1 BRP) does around 1/3 of a bar and that's not even using extensions of the combo.

Order-Sol's 5HS is supposed to be a majorly good move in this match up but I've not played it enough to go into details.

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vs Eddie? :( I have no clue what to do other than rush him down when he doesn't have little eddie out, pray when little eddie IS out.

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When little eddie is out he wants to loop you, where he uses overheads and stuff to get you into a combo, if that fails and little eddie is about to dissappear he will most likely attempt a grab. Or in some cases attempt a grab earlier. There's three options: 1. FD big eddie and normal guard little eddie. 2. IG little eddie and normal guard big eddie. 3. FD big eddie and IG little eddie. All 3 options push you away from big eddie, that way he can't throw you and can only keep up the pressure till little eddie runs out. And with this if he attempt an unblockable you can jump defend. From here on I consider the lamest behaviour, rather then taking it like a man, some eddies want to run away and wait for little eddie to refill. This WILL mean you'll be receiving drills and FB drills. The best way to get over that is by runjump FDing till you get near eddie. Once you're close and see an opening and Eddie is a bit careless you have a free CH j.H into combo. Even if he's not careless you can setup your offense from that spot and he wont be able to escape until little eddie shows up again. As for the Testament match up, I've played it myself. It's a fucking pain in the ass, have a nice day. Anyways, it still depends on the testament you're playing. If the Testament you're playing tends to attack you, or better put is aggresive he's fun to play against. But you probably won't have to expect seeing such a Testament often, if at all. Since Testament flourishes at zoning, he'll be at the other side of the screen with his traps out exe-beasting before you even had the chance to say "Aaah". Now someone at the other end of the screen isn't a problem, the fact that there's a gazillion amount of garbage in your way is what makes it hell. The best way to get in is using jumps to get over the trees and punches to get rid of the web. God forbid, don't try j.H on a web, cuz you'll get stuck 99/100 times and Testament has a free combo on you. Also, while jumping, don't accidentally land on a tree, because Testament will miraculously wake up out of his keep away game and attempt to attack you, since his overhead low game is pretty good, you'll most likely eat hits. Once you actually got to a corner, he's supposed to be stuck... Until he decides... yes you guessed it, if he gets a remote chance he'll reversal your ass with his catch moves, you'll be poisoned, eating a combo, have that fucking rave on your ass and if you FINALLY manage to get out of his attack, you're back at square 1, except you actually lost health rather then did damage to him. So when you get up close you MUST NEVER EVER fuck up. Now that we're on about keep away, Faust is the same type, with the damn garbage as well. You go about this like the testament match up, the catch here is however, you'll be most likely to stuff anything Faust tries on you to keep you away. By doing so you get the CH j.H into a free combo and you'd make faust more careful. When this happens you can proceed to a normal rush down without the worries of being catched and reversaled. Going up against Baiken, do mind the tatamis, don't be a fool and get CH'd by them. Just blocking the tatamis while running after Baiken already gives you a 50% higher chance of beating her. So now the other 50%... She likes to reversal, she could swear by it! So if your opponent is reversal happy, you're gonna P and then delay. Now what happens here is that the blockstun is too low for a human to reversal it, so Baiken will do an ordinary low. This is the moment where you CH sweep, charge and continue with your combo. Once your opponent has become more careful, don't get all cocky and launch full blockstrings on her, because you'll still eat a reversal. Minding the above, you can continue with a normal rushdown game once up close and destroy her. There isn't a lot to say about Jam, other then she does abnormally high damage off of random hits. To avoid these random hits or get a trade at worst, you could use l1Ri. Also note that Jam most likely will not attempt to rush you down but rather wait you out. It's very important that you remain solid even if your opponent is attempting to get the worst out of you. Venom and Axl are kinda like Faust, but with aimed garbage. Venom needs time to set up his balls, so this will be the time you won't be giving him. Axl really doesn't like the risk of you up close, so getting in will most likely be a bigger problem then actually dealing with him once you're in range. With both of them, original jumping patterns are key to getting close. And if they do stupid predictable shit, punish them for it, that's what OS is for. Against Sol: do not get predictable, this is a rule of fist against anyone, but it counts even heavier against Sol. From there on you should try to jump, doublejump his GF. You should NOT use gun blaze at random against Sol, he has too many tools to stop it(unless he's a dumbass, then you can GB away to your heart's content). If you're able however, you could GB any BB attempt unless there's a GF covering it. Potemkin: you have the priority, he pretty much has the damage. Since your character favors PB ranges... you're fucked. If he wants to go for okizime games, SV is a nice tool, otherwise you can also mash backdash which should help you stay clear from slidehead and airgrab loops. If Potemkin goes for an air attack OS gets a free gun blaze. This also applies in response to follow ups ending with storm viper. So whenever you land with OS and Potemkin still has to land, be sure that he has to block a flame before he gets on the ground. Against Zappa: BE FUCKING PATIENT. The very moment he fucks up however, don't hesitate to FB him for free damage. Keep in mind he has LOW PROFILE written all over him, this renders your Ri and GB useless, since BRP is slow on start up, you can't use that on reaction either. To win you need solid play. By all means: don't catch unnecessary shit like ghosts. Kekken and I have tested, Zappa's dog unblockable cannot be slashbacked, so don't even bother. Robo-Ky: I've played this match up quite a bit, it's pretty straight forward. Don't do stupid shit and you're fine. The best part however is when he sets his time bomb. What you should try is to interrupt him before that super discharges, the moment it does you need to be out of range, doing that successfully means you can charge to lvl3 for free while he's discharging and damaging himself. Against Chipp: If he likes to alphablade in air from across the screen, FD and punish it. From there on the match is pretty straight forward.

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I haven't played a lot of Jam really, nor do I really understand the matchup well. Anyways, some things that should work: sweep against qcf+S,S/H/D. If you're able, GB under them. You must NOT get hit by qcf+S moves. If you do get hit at least make sure it's a l1Ri trade. Also, I think this is one of the fewer matchups where l1Ri is actually useful, so use it:P And for the parrying, use low moves, 2P2K2S2D really is a good chain, which converts to charge or GB setup whatever you choose. Then when l3 you can 2P2K2S and then do a fafnir/l3BRP mixup to get damage going. Plain sweep can also stop other parts of her game. Best is not to cancel into l1Ri in any case, that should save you your parries for the majority already.

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Nice. Didn't know any of that. I'll start working on it today. Against anybody: 5HS uses This seems to work against Slayer when he does 214+P/K. Dunno who to use this against. And a question: I've been memorizing what normals/specials/supers characters can FRC and what frame in the animation they can do it. Is this a good idea? Cuz I don't want to waste time.:?:

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Well, if you know all the characters, that means how they play and how then intend to beat you, that's always a plus since it ups their predictability a lot. Just learning FRC points won't help you that much imo. 5H uses: anti air, anti airdash. You shouldn't use 5H outside chains/combos for ground to ground purpose.

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No real matchup strategies for characters just yet as I've had too little full on 2 player time on AC thus far but here's some things I wanted to bring up / note / point out.

Vs Potemkin

The 2 things that should probably worry you the most in this fight are Potemkin Buster and Slide Head. Since PB now has an FRC point, if (when?!) Potemkin lands a PB and has bar he can do monstrous damage in a few seconds and also set you up for the 6HS, slide head wakeup game. That means big damage in midscreen for him now. PB can grab limbs randomly and has horrendous range, so even when you're doing a short block string on him it's possible for him to PB YOU out of your attacks. Watch out for other PB tricks like backdash, PB and hammerfall break, PB. It may sound obvious repeating this old information but it's good to be aware of it I feel.

Slide head loops are nasty if you get caught in one without a burst. Potemkin won't be throwing these out too randomly close up (as you can actually block it then) but it is a constant threat you need to watch for. To stop yourself being hit by slide head in open play you have a few options:

1) Backdash

2) Jump

3) Charge Burst

4) Fafnir

5) BRP/SV

Back dash is obvious as you're airborne (and have some form of invincibility) as the slide head hits the ground. Jumping is also another basic option which is relatively risk free. If you're charging, a charge burst timed correctly will avoid the ground hit through invincibility, as will fafnir which has lower body invincibility during start up. Depending on the range, it's possible to score counter hits against slide head when using fafnir, giving you a free combo. You can BRP or SV on reaction (provided you're not already doing something) but back dashing is probably a lot safer. Lv3 BRP may score you a free combo depending on the range.

If you get knocked down and Potemkin throws out 6HS as oki you can either reversal SV it or backdash. Backdash is hard against 6HS because if you're out by a few frames or your opponent's timing is a little off you can still end up being tagged by the move and taking considerable damage. But it's probably worth learning to reversal backdash on wakeup because Potemkin can also use Giganter as a mixup instead of 6HS...both can lead to him getting in slide head and then getting his otg stuff in, if they are blocked. SV won't work vs giganter but backdash does.

Bizarrely it is actually better to let 6HS hit than block it on wakeup as it stops Potemkin from canceling into guaranteed slide head. But ideally you should watch out for what Potemkin goes for and either backdash or SV. SV can be easily baited however, even punished with things like judge gauntlet if you become too predictable. So it comes down to your opponent and what exactly they like to do.

If you have a burst and are going to use it to escape a loop, the best time to burst is just as he goes for the otg 5K, it should leave you in a decent (read "safe") position.

Overall I think this matchup can be approached from 2 distinct standpoints. One being rather defensive, holding back and charging up to make the most of your higher levels and the other being all out rushdown and mixing things up as quickly and as much as possible. Watch for his anti air 6P which can lead into either basic short retaliation combos or nasty tech traps. He has big range on his 5HS, 2D and 6HS (obviously!) as well as a few other things. His 2S now vacuums which can be a right pain sometimes and really helps out his combos.

Taking damage off him is like fighting a tank as usual but you can land pretty solid combos on him near the corner. Multiple j.Ps or any fast jump in will stuff his super armour on hammer fall, just don't try to ground poke it when he's right in your face as you can often end up taking the hit. I find 2HS less useful as oki pressure now as it's lost it's throw invincibility so I tend to use 6K more vs him.

That's what I've come up with so far I guess. I will add some info on the Venom matchup tomorrow.

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Vacuum? That would mean he'd suck you in, and that means you're setting yourself up for potemkin buster. Preferably you FD all moves that push you out and IB any move that sucks you in. When you're out of range you work yourself back in again.

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ok! i've played these match ups many times and have some ideas on how to play them. but i always like more input from the peeps here on D.loop. so advice for Oreder-Sol Vs.... 1)I-no 2)ABA 3)Eddie 4)May

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One little correction for the Potemkin part, otherwise it all sounds decent. If Pot is using 6HS on wakeup then just learn to IB it. You can then either backdash or jump the Slide Head. Sure, it's harder than just getting hit by it (bad idea; leads to potentially being dizzied if he gets another big hit in), or just using SV (6HS FRC exists for a reason and reversal shoryu just begs for Potty to PB or 2HS for the punish), but it's easier than trying to reversal backdash and taking the risk of getting hit anyhow. Also: 2S rocks this fight, Fafnir rocks this fight, and don't pretend HOS has a ground to air anti-air against Pot; he doesn't. J.P all the way. Also Also: the FD glitch against Slide Head only works when you're not in guard stun. 6HS xx Slide Head will still work normally; random Slide Heads from full screen doesn't. Edit: FD Glitch: FD while *standing* (and not in guard stun). If you're at the range where Slide Head is an unblockable (aka not physically hit by Potemkin, where Slide Head is a low) you will completely avoid it. Have to be standing; crouching leads to a normal unblockable Slide Head.

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