[Accent Core] Order-Sol Matchup Thread

[fatewalker]

Funneist vl1RI moment ever: lv1RI goes through Slayers BBU.... done it 3 times in tourie play.

[Hatred Edge]

It's true. I did that yesterday in a match. Imagine my shock at this. I was literally And what I find odd is BHB AC FRC>fafnir. I did this in a match and the Slayer I fought claims he blocked low but he got hit anyway. The Frame advantage??????

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Was he blocking low when he blocked the BHB? Those attacks come very close together, so he may have gotten hit if he wasn't already blocking low and just didn't react in time.

[Hatred Edge]

He was doing standing block when he blocked BHB. For some strange reason he has a hard time dealing with fafnir... I tell him it hits low so block low. He says he does yet he still gets hit anyway so he tries blocking high but that didn't work either(obviously). Maybe some odd glitch? Or BHB gives some kind weird fuzzy guard? Damn, I gotta find that match of Kaqn landing a corner air throw and relaunches with lvl.1 Savage Fang with a followup and wins the round. That should be added to the combo thread if it's not there yet....

[LM_Akira]

He was doing standing block when he blocked BHB. For some strange reason he has a hard time dealing with fafnir... I tell him it hits low so block low. He says he does yet he still gets hit anyway so he tries blocking high but that didn't work either(obviously). Maybe some odd glitch? Or BHB gives some kind weird fuzzy guard?

Damn, I gotta find that match of Kaqn landing a corner air throw and relaunches with lvl.1 Savage Fang with a followup and wins the round. That should be added to the combo thread if it's not there yet....

For a laugh I tested this vs cpu and there's no "fuzzy guard" type thing going on here, the cpu blocked the Fafnir crouching, you just need to react to it very quickly.

With regards the Lv1 SF juggle, well, that's been in since the very early days of Slash (for example in the corner 2D, Lv1 SF > hj combo was in the mook) but I will make a note of overdrives and their uses in combos at some point.

[excelence]

umm need some input on Johnny Matchup... he stuff up my everything with 2/3hs ;D

[LM_Akira]

I will definitely have something to post about the Johnny matchup soon as I'm playing it quite a bit these days, as well as more stuff on Venom as what I've put up so far doesn't really equate to much. Johnny's another frustrating fight for HOS, it's not so much that he'll zone you like Testament, Venom or Faust can (for example) it's that he has such great range on his pokes and specials meaning it's hard to get into him. Mist Finers cover an awful lot of ground, especially at Lv2 which is what you'll probably see most (Lv2 P MF for wall bounce and combo, Lv2 K MF for air combos using KJ FRC). It's next to impossible for Johnny to score a 1-hit Ensenga knockdown on HOS (contrary to what I've mentioned before) but he can however use Divine Blade at the end of air combos for knockdown. He doesn't really have that many oki options now (at least I see it that way) apart from coin (to make you block) coin > TK Ensenga (RC) into combo (if you're blocking low on wakeup) 3HS (as a low poke) and so on. There are some HOS-Johnny matches in the media thread you could check out for ideas for the time being I guess.

[excelence]

about the oki option... that's exactlly what he does... it shouldn't be a big problem with SF reversal/high jump... but what frustrated me is his keep away games (x_o)a, it feels like he has a very safe option against all of HOS pressure (6p/MF/MC feint) ... and a panic button (2hs) that leads into zomfg combos ... well yeah i guess i'll check'em out thx

[Mitsurugi]

It seems you are being outpoked. When he is from afar and you fear an upper Mist Finer (MF), you can dash-jump and or double jump and FD it to bait the MF. If the JO player perform it, he would lose a level 2. Dash Brake (run and FD) with low FD if you want to approach from the ground. Same thing here in order to make him waste a level (MF-K or S) if he uses it as a poke/thinks there is an opening. Anyway if he zones you from afar, that is a good opportunity to charge since you can cancel before he gets close to you. Avoid the burst cancel whatever it is called, it may works the first time but afterward, you'll get baited and punished after it. 2H mashing is easy to punish thanks to OS small jump. Don't know how, but I played two good HOS players and if I carelessly throw out it, they small jump (anticipate it) and big combo. On the opposite, i think OS has good frame traps and "priority" that makes it hard for JO to escape pressure : 2H is really risky and blocking (FD, IB) then punishing or escaping when there is a true hole (not a bait from the frame trap) are better options for JO than mashing the panic button IMO. When you wake up, beware of 2D or dash > throw too, either masked by a coin or a little gatling beforehand or not. Don't recklessly throw out reversal SV as an appropriate 3H will nicely stuff it thanks to its range and 2 hits (CH against all reversal shoryukens but the distance varies for JO). Granted, it he does it too close you can nail him but that should not happen often. 3H is not a low by the way ! Do not poke with Rock It as a simple 5K will CH hit. Those are only random stuff from matches between 2 friends playing OS and me (JO) maybe everything is not viable for you but it may help nevertheless.

[LM_Akira]

Thanks for the input. And yes, 3K is not low sorry, I thought it was from the animation but I tested it last night and realised you can block it standing. I honestly feel backdash is your best friend when playing Johnny, not to be used too often but it's good against coins at midrange and to bait any pokes that have laggy recovery. You can nullify coins with 6P but it's not something I find myself doing much. Jumping in a neutral situation will probably get you killed as Johnny has 5HS, 6P and Lv1 P MF as anti air to stop you, unless you FD. KJT KJ can actually hit you if you do Lv1 BHB AC on the other side of the screen without FRCing, so it's probably best not to do it much (unless Johnny's been knocked down or something). And yeah, Johnny has no invincible dragon punch style move to get himself out of pressure (apart from That's my name) so he will naturally have trouble with pressure/block strings up close and fuzzy guard off j.S can be useful for knockdown.

[Mitsurugi]

Yep, sprites and animations are kinda confusing. During our first matches, one of the OS players did FB Fafnir, which I never saw. I thought it was an overhead specially since he told me so (he truly believed it) but I kept being hit by hit. Hence I checked on the frame data to see the truth. Now that was true mindgame. Same thing goes for TE's 6P and FA's 2K and many others. Back to the OS-JO matchup. You can also run under coins but that is distance specific. Can KJT > KJ really beat you out of a non-FRC Lv1 BHB AC ? On reaction or anticipated ? Thanks, I'll try that. Though I mostly try Mist Stanced Dash Jackhound, the KJ option may be better. In fact, there are 3 good OS players I play : two on a regular basis (once or twice a month max) and one every 6 months ! It has been a while since we didn't play together, they may have built new anti-JO strats by now. Maybe more to come on this matchup next time we meet.

[LM_Akira]

Back to the OS-JO matchup.

You can also run under coins but that is distance specific.

Can KJT > KJ really beat you out of a non-FRC Lv1 BHB AC ? On reaction or anticipated ? Thanks, I'll try that. Though I mostly try Mist Stanced Dash Jackhound, the KJ option may be better.

In fact, there are 3 good OS players I play : two on a regular basis (once or twice a month max) and one every 6 months !

It has been a while since we didn't play together, they may have built new anti-JO strats by now. Maybe more to come on this matchup next time we meet.

HOS can also dash sweep underneath coins as a further way to avoid them but you'd need to be up close to start with and be confident in judging distance.

I was caught about 3 times by KJT, KJ hitting Lv1 BHB AC (from a good distance away) over the weekend, I think you kinda need to anticipate it, but as soon as you see him go for the BHB you should be able to CH him if he ACs (HOS is in CH state for all ACs).

Actually I just tested it, you can do KJT, KJ on reaction to the Lv1 BHB and you'll miss the flames and get CH just as HOS does his AC. You can even get it if HOS does the AC FRC and doesn't hold back (i.e. HOS has to do Lv1 BHB AC FRC hold back just to be safe in this scenario).

[excelence]

It seems you are being outpoked. When he is from afar and you fear an upper Mist Finer (MF), you can dash-jump and or double jump and FD it to bait the MF. If the JO player perform it, he would lose a level 2.

the real problem with my jump-in wasn't that MF but his 6p, and yes i do the double jump and fd his mist finer but here we go with his Zoning game again

Dash Brake (run and FD) with low FD if you want to approach from the ground. Same thing here in order to make him waste a level (MF-K or S) if he uses it as a poke/thinks there is an opening.

i haven't try this... to much abuse on HOS low jump XD

Anyway if he zones you from afar, that is a good opportunity to charge since you can cancel before he gets close to you. Avoid the burst cancel whatever it is called, it may works the first time but afterward, you'll get baited and punished after it.

yeah i did this but what the heck i should do with the stored meter ... my problem here :/

2H mashing is easy to punish thanks to OS small jump. Don't know how, but I played two good HOS players and if I carelessly throw out it, they small jump (anticipate it) and big combo.

i eat his 2hs when i thought there's an opening on his attack and i do the "run-in" ... i'll try the "jump-in" next time

On the opposite, i think OS has good frame traps and "priority" that makes it hard for JO to escape pressure : 2H is really risky and blocking (FD, IB) then punishing or escaping when there is a true hole (not a bait from the frame trap) are better options for JO than mashing the panic button IMO.

that's true... and about 2h i should try to bait him more :/

When you wake up, beware of 2D or dash > throw too, either masked by a coin or a little gatling beforehand or not.

i do about 6 hours worth of round a week with him ... tick throw games would looks really stupid on our match (;^_^)>

Don't recklessly throw out reversal SV as an appropriate 3H will nicely stuff it thanks to its range and 2 hits (CH against all reversal shoryukens but the distance varies for JO). Granted, it he does it too close you can nail him but that should not happen often.

3H is not a low by the way !

never done that, he space his pressure well and abuse the coin on corner... any reversal SV would actually kill me :/ ... and 3h is MID? WTF!!!! big thanks for the info

Do not poke with Rock It as a simple 5K will CH hit.

true

Back to the OS-JO matchup.

You can also run under coins but that is distance specific.

some times if i thougt he's to close, i do reversal Gunblaze and throw him to the corner, not hapen to often thought... and i do run under his coin when using SOL but when i'm using HOS i just can't get the timming X(

and thx again,... this match up is much more frustrating than my Tes or Baiken match up

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Some more observations on the Slayer matchup: 2HS is an annoying move, especially when he uses it to zone you. However, your 5S(f) beats it out on startup if both moves are thrown at the same time. The catch here is that his 6P will CH your 5S(f), but he must guess on this one and as WUT posted above, 2D will beat 6P for a free CH into combo, so this gives you another tool in the midscreen baiting game. 2S can also beat 2HS, though the consistency of this is arguable. Regardless, I've been able to CH Slayer out of his 2HS with 2S, but other pokes like 2K and 5K will probably beat it out. Another tool against 2HS is Fafnir. At first, it seems like Fafnir would lose to 2HS due to the lower-body invincibility on the move, but this only happens if you do your Fafnir first or at the same time as his 2HS. Slayer's 2HS only has lower-body invincibility up to the first active frame of the move, same as Fafnir. So if you do Fafnir after he does 2HS, you will beat it. This is another baiting game, as basically whoever does their move first will lose. The risk/reward is roughly equal here, except that Slayer doesn't have to commit to using his 25% meter immediately. So trudge carefully. One place that the above information can really come in handy is when you are on defense. Some Slayer players like to autopilot their links when they are on offense, which you can take advantage of. If the Slayer you are fighting is always doing 2K-2HS, you can block the 2K and Fafnir against the 2HS for a free combo. Another tip for in-close fighting is to use 2P. Slayer's 2K has this annoying property of being able to evade 5K even at fairly close ranges (except for point-blank). However, 2P will usually beat 2K cleanly. It will also beat out 6HS if you are in range to hit Slayer. So use 2P more often for starting your strings in this fight. I've been relatively unsuccessful with getting j.P to clash with Slayer's 2S, so I would opt to FD if I throw j.P and he hasn't thrown out another move. In general, I don't like to just use j.P out of the blue in this matchup, I get anti-aired way too much. Backing up and Charging is a requirement versus Slayer. Trying to initiate offense at midscreen is far too risky as the risk/reward is heavily skewed in Slayer's favor. It's better to play conservatively and try to make Slayer come at you so you can counter his approach and get a knockdown to start your offense. Level 2/level 3 makes this fight much easier as well.

[SSMugen]

Nice Info on the slayer matchup. This will definetly help me fight Slayer since my friend uses him. I still see that Testament is a pretty bad matchup for HOS in AC as it was in XX Slash although it's gotten a bit worse >_<

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Some other stuff: Properly spaced, your 6P will beat Slayer's 6P. 6P is useful in general as long as you are outside of 2HS range. Usually, j.P will stop Slayer's IAD j.HS cold, but if he is far enough away, you won't be able to hit him and may even risk a CH. Spacing is IMPORTANT. Another move that will help you get around 2HS spam is BRP at pretty much any level. However, again, this will lose to 6P and CH 6P leads to a huge chunk of your life. The risk is usually only worth it if you have level 3 since you can combo off of it for big damage, but level 2 is ok to go for occasionally since you will get the knockdown you want. Level 1 is not worth it. I think that's all I can remember for now. Fuck Slayer.

[Villainous]

Why would you 6P outside of 2HS range? My 6P doesn't even hit that far. Also j.P is good air to air but slayer can beat it out with j.K if he spaces it right. If you're on top of me, then I may just have to block the j.P. I'm not sure if slayer's j.P would be able to win against it. But yeah properly spaced slayer j.K seems to beat it out a lot for CH into combo. Generally that match is a horrible guessing games. There's 2 planes you can attack on it seems like and 2HS's invincibility covers one of those and 6P/BBU covers the other. Slayer does have trouble once you're inside though, so try to keep the pressure on. On another note though, slayer doesn't seem to have a good answer to rockit. Atleast, I've had trouble getting something to beat it, but I haven't had a chance to try 6P / BBU.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Why would you 6P outside of 2HS range? My 6P doesn't even hit that far.

Yes, but stuff like my 5S(f) and BRP will hit at that range and beat 2HS. You may do 6P in anticipation of these moves. 6P is a good move for me to do because the risk is quite minimal and I get a good reward if I guess right. But mostly I just discovered my 6P beating yours on accident in training mode.

Also j.P is good air to air but slayer can beat it out with j.K if he spaces it right. If you're on top of me, then I may just have to block the j.P. I'm not sure if slayer's j.P would be able to win against it.

Read WUT's post above, if you are IADing with j.K I can pretty much Gun Blaze you for free or do 2D and your j.K will whiff, giving me time to punish you when you land. You shouldn't be IADing with j.K at the range where it would beat j.P anyway, you're not making any real advancement in that situation.

Generally that match is a horrible guessing games. There's 2 plans you can attack on it seems like and 2HS's invincibility covers one of those and 6P/BBU covers the other. Slayer does have trouble once you're inside though, so try to keep the pressure on.

Again, read further up where WUT posted his anti-Slayer strat. To briefly recap, if I stay outside of your 2HS range, you have three ways to come at me and I have two moves that both either straight counter those approaches or otherwise are safe to them. I'm not supposed to be approaching you.

The baiting game in this matchup is not that bad, it's just slightly in Slayer's favor because he doesn't have to risk as much/use as many resources and the reward is slightly better.

[Villainous]

Well not IADing with slayer but I can jump at you with j.K if I think you will j.P me. Just thought I'd throw in some input. Out of curiosity, what are my 3 ways of approach you think? I have... IAD with j.H jump at you and "wait and see", slowly work myself into range 2D moves me foward and gives me a hitbox low walk towards you teleport Mappa covers a lot of ground FAST and gives me a mid level hit box Mappa Feint Dandy Step 6H also moves me forward and covers any air approach you might make. 6P also moves me foward and covers a lot of your options.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Well not IADing with slayer but I can jump at you with j.K if I think you will j.P me.

I'm not just randomly doing j.P. I'm doing it on reaction to your IAD. If the spacing is proper, this is guaranteed for me since there is a set startup on airdashes before you can attack (it's short for Slayer, but it's still there).

Out of curiosity, what are my 3 ways of approach you think? I have...

jump at you and "wait and see", slowly work myself into range

This is not really a way of approach, this is a bait and if you don't do attacks in anticipation, I can jump at you with j.P with little fear and start my own offense.

2D moves me foward and gives me a hitbox low

Fafnir, dead. This move also loses to 2S, which means CH into 6HS for a big chunk.

walk towards you

Poke you before you reach 2HS range with 5S(f), this prevents your approach and also shuts down your jump, you have to 6P in anticipation which is a big risk.

teleport

Teleport has recovery on the ground, if you don't jump then you put yourself in a situation to be hurt.

Mappa

Read WUT's post like I told you, 2D and Gun Blaze beat this.

Mappa Feint

See above.

Dandy Step

Dead Six Ways From Sunday, you are asking to be hit.

6H also moves me forward and covers any air approach you might make.

2D, Gun Blaze.

READ WUT'S POST.

[Villainous]

Hmm yeah but then you encounter the problem of "what if Slayer decides to let you come to him?" You can charge all day if you want but eventually you have to come in and no risk OS can take is not without an answer on slayer's part. It seems like both characters are trying to do the same thing here.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Hmm yeah but then you encounter the problem of "what if Slayer decides to let you come to him?"

You can charge all day if you want but eventually you have to come in and no risk OS can take is not without an answer on slayer's part. It seems like both characters are trying to do the same thing here.

HOS with level 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HOS without level 3. You would be a fucking fool to let him get level 3 in a match. He essentially turns into Slayer once he gets this.

For example, if I have a maxed out Charge, I can do level 3 Rock It and get in for free. Due to the increased speed, you can no longer 6P it on reaction and if you block it, I can JI the last hit into a level 3 Block Head Buster, which will leave you in blockstun long enough for me to run a free mixup on you. If you get hit by level 3 Rock It, I get a free half-life no-Tension combo.

I can also use level 3 Bandit Revolver to go over 2HS, as I posted earlier above. Another free half-life no-Tension combo off of this.

Basically, with level 3, the risk/reward of this match gets almost completely evened out. To sit there and just let me get it is the single dumbest thing you can do in this matchup. You are basically handing me the round.

[Villainous]

Well, I don't really want to get into theory fighter too much here but most of the stuff you can do with level 3, you'll either have to run up for or take a risk and do it from range. I may not be able to completely react with a move, but if I know you have level 3, that stuff isn't that hard to block. Also if you get too comfortable with running away to charge, I have DOT and Mappa to quickly hit you out of it. I know you have action charge burst or whatever but that's risky. Really risky. Level 3 fireball would be great to use though. I'd suggest using it more often. Free mix up, opens him for approach, and slayer has no real answer to it. Why not?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Well, I don't really want to get into theory fighter too much here but most of the stuff you can do with level 3, you'll either have to run up for or take a risk and do it from range. I may not be able to completely react with a move, but if I know you have level 3, that stuff isn't that hard to block. Also if you get too comfortable with running away to charge, I have DOT and Mappa to quickly hit you out of it. I know you have action charge burst or whatever but that's risky. Really risky.

Level 3 moves are safe and/or give massive frame advantage on block, so I don't care if you can block them or not, I get inside for free. If you fuck up or guess wrong, I kill you.

Mappa will not hit me "quickly" out of it, Charge recovery is very fast. Again, you have to guess. We're talking about you running away from me now, all I have to do is stay out of Mappa range and if I see you walk forward, stop Charging and block/back away. I never have to risk a Charge Burst. Ever.

Level 3 fireball would be great to use though. I'd suggest using it more often. Free mix up, opens him for approach, and slayer has no real answer to it. Why not?

Using it at range is a total waste. All you have to do is stay out of the max range of the move and try to counter my approach. Better to save it for when I actually get inside. This is not Slash where my level 3 BHB reaches full screen.

[Villainous]

Hmm, well, I'm sure you know better than me in regards to OS, but I dunno. The only time I had any trouble yesterday when we played was when you actually kept the pressure on me continuously. As long as you were creative with your mix ups and approach, I lost a large deal of my options, and throw in the corner hurts. Slayer doesn't handle in close pressure well at all unless you stick out a low predictably that I can 2H for free damage. I really feel like you gotta maintain a decent level of pressure to be effective in this match. You might be able to beat some of my range options every now and then but why do I care? I win out more often than not and the net damage reward is much higher than anything Order Sol gets at range. It's much easier for me to guess right when playing the range game than it is for you.