[Accent Core] Order-Sol Matchup Thread

[reaVer]

Ever thought of recurring patterns? No need to be a mind reader for that. And I still wouldn't say that 200dmg + knockdown is unrewarding, Potemkin can simply hammerfall through without getting phased by the fafnir, and if he has 25% you have a problem. You still don't seem to comprehend that most other characters have options that deal with multiple cases, such as Sol's Vipers that deal with nearly any sort of attack OS can use, even dashing in then doesn't become a good idea. Next to that, any decent opponent isn't really as doubtful as you'd hope. Most opponents would be clever enough to check what you did last time in the same situation and if you were to execute fafnir the second time; phoof, 200 hitpoints are gone. Of course, you could hope to hit them with GB, but IAD isn't the only wait to kick your ass unfortunately, something among the lines of BRP will not allow you to use your GB and at the same time, it goes over your fafnir. Then with level 3 BRP, you're gonna be hurting. The only thing that solidly counters this is j.P. OS can also reversal fafnir, and your link goes out the window, because he'll be later then you are and that means his invincibility will be carried the longest. Johnny can use ensegna and continue the combo, it counters your fafnir and prevents you from hitting him with a GB. This list goes on and on.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Ever thought of recurring patterns? No need to be a mind reader for that.

And where did I say I would not pay attention to what my opponent is doing? Learn to READ. Again, there is nothing different about what you're saying, it's the same thing.

And I still wouldn't say that 200dmg + knockdown is unrewarding, Potemkin can simply hammerfall through without getting phased by the fafnir, and if he has 25% you have a problem.

Yeah, I understand that Potemkin has an option to deal with this, I have acknowledged that some characters have things they can do that make this situation much easier for them to deal with. Shit, that's how this whole conversation got started in the first place. You're the one who seems to be incapable of understanding others and continues to hammer the same points over and over with no resolution in sight.

You still don't seem to comprehend that most other characters have options that deal with multiple cases

I have mentioned this multiple times, again, learn how to read. You're being really obstinate for no reason.

such as Sol's Vipers that deal with nearly any sort of attack OS can use, even dashing in then doesn't become a good idea.

Dash break, bait Viper, punish the fuck out of Sol, suddenly he doesn't want to Viper anymore. Pretty simple. Unless he has 50% meter, random Viper at that range is a horrible idea in terms of risk/reward.

Next to that, any decent opponent isn't really as doubtful as you'd hope. Most opponents would be clever enough to check what you did last time in the same situation and if you were to execute fafnir the second time; phoof, 200 hitpoints are gone.

Hi, this is what I've been talking about the whole time, nobody wants to get CH by Fafnir more than once. Even just one time is too much. The fear you inspire with the move then makes them do things that would otherwise be a bad/dumb idea and suddenly you can run your regular game on them with ease. That's the whole point of the strategy.

Of course, you could hope to hit them with GB, but IAD isn't the only wait to kick your ass unfortunately, something among the lines of BRP will not allow you to use your GB and at the same time, it goes over your fafnir.

Yeah, unless you see him start up BRP when you are dashing and then punish the BRP with a SV or even by guarding it. Again, we are getting into character-specific options and these can be dealt with more easily than you think. Shit, you dash, see the BRP startup, jump and IB, land, punish. Is it easy? Not initially, but with practice it is definitely possible and you can do it on reaction. You can even Slashback that move and punish him really badly for it.

I'm not advocating doing a random GB in anticipation of an IAD, I'm saying you dash, you see the IAD startup, you GB on reaction. You don't even have to do this, you can do instant j.P or reaction Storm Viper when you see the dash and it's pretty free.

Then with level 3 BRP, you're gonna be hurting.

FD break, block the BRP, SB the second hit. Now HOS is hurting. Again, this can be done on reaction if you are quick.

The only thing that solidly counters this is j.P. OS can also reversal fafnir, and your link goes out the window, because he'll be later then you are and that means his invincibility will be carried the longest.

Wow, aren't you smart. Same as...oh wait, same as Slayer's 2HS! Means you can counter it in the same manner. Except HOS has to use 25% meter. We can sit here all day and pick through character-specific counters to this tactic, I am aware they exist. This does not suddenly shut down the tactic. It does not change the fact that intelligent use of the tactic puts you in an advantageous position.

Johnny can use ensegna and continue the combo, it counters your fafnir and prevents you from hitting him with a GB. This list goes on and on.

Johnny needs 50% to continue the combo and if he guesses wrong you punish the fuck out of him. The list goes on and on and yet it is STILL A SITUATION IN YOUR FAVOR no matter how you look at it. There are a few exceptions where the tactic can be shut down hard, but otherwise the opponent is taking major risks to counter it and you can counter their counters pretty easily and again, often on reaction.

[lars]

pfff it's burning here! wel i think that discussion could be the same for every character as gg is a guessing game like chess but faster.... every char got some option against an other yada yada..... if opponent air dash/jump u can 2d or jump p or ch hs cc or storm viper depending how u have time/anticipation if he's rushing/mashing low just fafnir but opponent is not stupid in general he can guess too what u wan to do and punish i don't see the point to fight that in a discussion cause it's the same for every char, imo i just try to be the most creative possible especially in pressing to oblige opponent to be always surprise(against buttons masher i tend to be a little far,dead time and fafnir=good chances of ch,then they'll sytop to mash and i can build my game seriously)... then yeah some chars got specific solution against a move but generally zoning chars are a prob for hos and long range too. due to the poor range of hos and the lack of projectile some char are a nightmare. hos is a char simple u can go close to opponent u're at ur advanage, u can't u're disadvantaged

[reaVer]

The problem is that OS is entirely situational, as where the opposing characters are not. Sol counters ANY attack with VV, so you'd be forced to guard, Potemkin doesn't even need to care what you do, etc etc. You on the other hand, can only counter one of three things: air attack/forward flee, ground attack and guard/backdash. The opponent has 2 options against the one option you counter, and he will always have that. That's a theoretical 2 to 1 ratio which isn't good. Hence putting yourself in such a situation multiple times is a bad idea.

[Sesshyru]

Yah lars, they been arguin for the past 2 days.. HOS plays differently than most AC characters from what I have noticed. HOS vs. Slayer = mortal combat vs. Street fighter 1 (Yes, SF1, the supremely omega broken tornado kick that takes 80% of your life).

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

The problem is that OS is entirely situational, as where the opposing characters are not. Sol counters ANY attack with VV, so you'd be forced to guard, Potemkin doesn't even need to care what you do, etc etc. You on the other hand, can only counter one of three things: air attack/forward flee, ground attack and guard/backdash. The opponent has 2 options against the one option you counter, and he will always have that. That's a theoretical 2 to 1 ratio which isn't good. Hence putting yourself in such a situation multiple times is a bad idea.

You're looking at it wrong. Your opponent has to choose between multiple options whereas you have one or two options that counter all of those. How is that bad for you? More doesn't always equal good, you have to actually look at what is happening in the situation.

The situations you are describing with Sol and Potemkin are the same as the situation for HOS in this scenario. Basically, you are creating a situation where you can dash at your opponent no matter what he does, because you are eliminating the main thing that prevents you from dashing at them in that scenario. They have options to deal with you Fafnir, but almost all of them are bad if you choose to dash forward instead and most of them don't even really counter Fafnir, they just prevent the situation of "oh shit I just ate Fafnir CH and I'm going to die". This is a good idea, not a bad one.

[lars]

mmmm i would say vv of sol sucks for everyone wheras fafnir sure that after 2ch fafnir everyone is carefully with it so tend to air attack more

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

VV has far less payoff even on normal hit than Fafnir, you have to RC it to do similar or better damage and that costs twice as much as Fafnir does. The CH damage isn't even really comparable, Fafnir is easily superior in that aspect. VV is capable of interrupting more stuff but it's also just as easy or even easier to bait and you usually get punished worse if your VV gets baited as opposed to if Fafnir gets baited. Honestly, you'll hit with Fafnir way more often than you would hit with VV, it's a better move IMO.

[reaVer]

Err, CH VV goes to SW loop? That's no tension and 200+ dmg. You don't have one option that deals with 2 scenarios, if you had this wouldn't even be up for discussion. Furthermore, there's other and better dash setups, where you actually do have options that counter 2 scenarios and where your options easily prevent people from jumping.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Err, CH VV goes to SW loop? That's no tension and 200+ dmg.

Not on every CH, only on 2nd hit and only from certain spacing. Fafnir, any CH, massive damage. Big difference.

You don't have one option that deals with 2 scenarios, if you had this wouldn't even be up for discussion.

You have one option (Fafnir) that covers one problematic scenario (ground pokes) and leaves the door open for your other option (dashing). Dashing already covers both backdash and jumping away, which is 2 scenarios right there and immediately proves what you just said to be wrong. I could stop here but my goal is to promote an understanding of the situation, not to win an argument.

From your second option (dashing) you have the ability to react to any other option your opponent chooses to counter your first option (Fafnir). So really, you have one option that covers every other scenario besides the one your first option beats. The key word here is "react". If you were guessing at what your opponent was going to do, you'd be right. But in general, you can react to what your opponent does to evade or counter your Fafnir option and thus the situation is greatly to your advantage. I can understand if you have bad reaction time how you would think this is not to your favor, but generally reacting to things like someone IADing at you when you are dashing forward is pretty easy, especially if you know that they have the option to IAD at you and are expecting them to try.

Furthermore, there's other and better dash setups, where you actually do have options that counter 2 scenarios and where your options easily prevent people from jumping.

Great, go ahead and name some. I shouldn't even have to ask you to do that, you should have already started naming them off when you made this post.

[reaVer]

For that last comment, do your own homework, you're the forum mod here... As for your Ri mixup, have you considered those that do an IAD in reaction to your Ri? That's a third option right there, and neither dashing nor fafnir counters it. And you'd have to dedicate yourself to GB, because IAD into anything is too fast to react to.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

As for your Ri mixup, have you considered those that do an IAD in reaction to your Ri? That's a third option right there, and neither dashing nor fafnir counters it.

That works pretty well, unless I'm cancelling a poke into Rock It, in which case they'll probably get hit out of jump startup.

And you'd have to dedicate yourself to GB, because IAD into anything is too fast to react to.

I've reacted to Slayer's super-fast IAD with a j.P out of my dash pretty easily, doing a GB shouldn't be much harder than that.

In any case, check your PMs.

[bucklemyshoe]

Okay Order-Sol players... What's your opinion on the match up against I-No What about her do you fear the most? What weakness of hers do you find easiest/best to exploit? General gameplan?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I find that randomly pressing 5K when I-no is rushing me down = dead I-no. In general I think this match is in HOS's favor or possibly even. I-no can zone HOS but it's difficult for her and HOS has more ways around her rush/pressure. The scariest thing about any I-no is gonna be the mixup and her huge damage off of a successful hit. While she doesn't hit as hard as she did in Slash, good I-no combos still hurt like a mother. Her biggest weakness, again, IMO, is that it is really easy to interrupt her offense sometimes. Her ability to actually lock HOS down is weak. General gameplan is to just wait for an opening to hit her out of her offensive setup and then start rushing her down. I try to respect her space a little initially so I don't eat a random j.HS or something similar that might knock me on my ass. My main goal is to let her create an opening for me to exploit so I can start my own game. I dunno, it's been a long time since I've played a decent I-no, our local player pretty much dropped out of the scene.

[LM_Akira]

I was actually going to start this matchup thread very soon as I've had the opportunity to play a great I-No player recently and I wanted to discuss it with other HOS players. I was under this impression the match was considered 6-4 to HOS in the early days of AC but no idea what it's considered now. The thing I fear about most is constantly watching for the mixup after knockdown: Hoverdash j.K, hoverdash whiff j.HS land throw, hoverdash j.K land hoverdash j.K, hoverdash land 2K, hoverdash land 2K hoverdash j.K etc... It's funny, it's 50-50 to try and react to the high - low but one of our players said it's not even that because she can land and throw, so it's like 33.33-33.33-33.33 or 1 out of 3 in terms of guessing lol This is without doubt the thing I hate about playing I-No the most. Even if you block the initial mixup, a good player can still mix you up afterwards and score damage. Stuff like j.K can be timed so they're reversal safe. If I whiffed a reversal/wakeup SV I found myself getting air thrown and combo'd. So I fear the knockdown more than anything I guess, since that's where the main mixup game comes into it. I find Note a pain too, since blocking it on the ground actually gives I-No an easier opportunity to mix you up. I try to avoid it by high jumps or double jumps or block it in the air. I remember seeing Kaqn doing this all the time so I figured he must be doing it for a reason. I will search for some of my vids (and some old HOS-I-No matches) and see what more I can think of.

[Hatred Edge]

The thing I enjoy about fighting I-no is that I play Order-Sol. In other words I don't need tension for big damage. That tension for me, a important tool to get I-no out of my face. FD pushes I-no out automatically. That's how I tend to deal with the mixups. Oddly I enjoy I-no rushing me down... I have to see what the I-no player is capable of. My main AA tools are 5K at close range and 5HS mid range or SV. SV is what I use when I want some meter fast. It gets you out of my face and puts me a spot to gain charge. 5HS is great. Pretty much I-no's best way to beat that move is to either A)Block it or B)Air OD. Personally regarding the note, I prefer to block it or go airborne. Ground normals I use against I-no are 2S/5K/2P/2K/2D. And whatever you if do if you see HOS is the air, if he hasn't attacked yet DO NOT DO HCL/VCL unless he's far enough away you can't get hit. If you end up to close you'll just get SV or thrown. The air: If I'm in the air I'm going for either: A:Blocking/avoiding the note B:Air throw or SV C:Creating some space. Mainly jumping away. I don't want you in my face. If HOS jumps in on you, airthrow. FDing HOS..well I just CC if that happens. BMS, I remember you postin that HOS players tend to be overly aggressive. That's not really true. Don't think like that. That's assuming your opponents gameplan. Not all HOS players are like that. That's like assuming I-no will always do an VCL if she's in the air. Something to note though, if the HOS you play doesn't FD your offense that's something you really have in your favor. I-no's strength is her mixups. You must use it's potential. High/low/throws/airthrows all of it. Something I find really odd about I-no... sometimes if I do 5K to early, she'll do j.D and evade and punish my 5K.... I say the matchup is 5-5 or 5.5-4.5.... Weaknessess: HOS can't control space on the level I-no can. Both suffer from being FD but HOS can gain +Fs via CC in case that happens. I-no's mixups are high class but HOS can answer to a lot of her moves. Neither can be reckless in this fight. One KD is all either one of them needs to gain control. They are kinda alike in a sense.

[LM_Akira]

FD pushes I-no out automatically. That's how I tend to deal with the mixups. Oddly I enjoy I-no rushing me down... I have to see what the I-no player is capable of.

Does playing against this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcHrY2q_qT0

look like fun to you?

FD is good for pushing her out...but you need to actually successfully block at least a few hits for that to pay off.

[SSMugen]

^ ouch. That match was basically in the corner all day! Since I've never played a decent I-no before I never knew she was capable of mix-ups of that caliber! That first round of the 2nd match was pretty bad though on test......mix-ups of death right there man!

[Hatred Edge]

That was amazing. Nasty I-no there.... However it's best way to learn. Even if it means getting your face smashed in with a guitar. IMO I think Testy has a harder time dealing with what I-no has whereas HOS can has an easier time. But Testy can lock I-no down better than HOS can. Learning how to FD is something like learning another character. It's crazy...

[LM_Akira]

Testament is a bad matchup for I-No, you saw what Kane did when he landed 1 BL loop, you can go to town with BLs vs her (amongst other things). I just wanted to point out I-No's amazing high/low/throw oki game. Similar to Millia and others, you can feasibly kill the opponent with 1 knockdown (granted it takes work and solid mixups). I'm trying to root out my HOS matches vs Ryza's I-No but they're mostly laughably bad

[Hatred Edge]

At least you have matches....

[LM_Akira]

lol

Another recent match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo2zBGaRE0w

Yes it's not HOS again but Slayer. Check out the 1st round of the 2nd fight tho, I was like :scared: when that last combo happened.

[Hatred Edge]

Wow... Slayers 6P reminds me of Sol's XXS VV. As for that combo. That was rape.

[SSMugen]

that combo was insane man! some intense matches you found here. You need to post those I-no vids of yours man so we can see more of what were up against!

[bucklemyshoe]

Her biggest weakness, again, IMO, is that it is really easy to interrupt her offense sometimes. Her ability to actually lock HOS down is weak.

General gameplan is to just wait for an opening to hit her out of her offensive setup and then start rushing her down. I try to respect her space a little initially so I don't eat a random j.HS or something similar that might knock me on my ass. My main goal is to let her create an opening for me to exploit so I can start my own game.

I would say that she has almost no way to lock an HOS player down. The best is to just pin him down with notes. Especially with his fucked up hitbox that makes alot of bread and butter miss.

lol, funny thing. that's pretty much her gameplan against you. wait for you to give an opening.

I was under this impression the match was considered 6-4 to HOS in the early days of AC but no idea what it's considered now.

It's funny, it's 50-50 to try and react to the high - low but one of our players said it's not even that because she can land and throw, so it's like 33.33-33.33-33.33 or 1 out of 3 in terms of guessing lol

I find Note a pain too, since blocking it on the ground actually gives I-No an easier opportunity to mix you up. I try to avoid it by high jumps or double jumps or block it in the air. I remember seeing Kaqn doing this all the time so I figured he must be doing it for a reason.

I will search for some of my vids (and some old HOS-I-No matches) and see what more I can think of.

I would say that the match is 5-5.

Yea, infact, 9 times out of 10 if I land in range, I'm going to go for a throw. The success rate is outstanding.

I'm going to tell you guys a secret, the worst thing you can do with a note is block it normally, the 2nd worst thing you can do is try to jump it. (including DJ and SJ) If you jump it, it's going to give I-No a free air throw. If you block it normally, then I-No is going to get damage off it no matter what she does. The best thing you can possibly do is A) go under it, B) fualtless defense block, or C) block it in air.

My execution was pretty shitty, so don't give me shit but the first match here really illustrates all my points about notes, as well as give examples of landing into a throw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE9GhIZyh3o

My main AA tools are 5K at close range and 5HS mid range or SV. SV is what I use when I want some meter fast. It gets you out of my face and puts me a spot to gain charge. 5HS is great. Pretty much I-no's best way to beat that move is to either A)Block it or B)Air OD.

BMS, I remember you postin that HOS players tend to be overly aggressive. That's not really true. Don't think like that. That's assuming your opponents gameplan. Not all HOS players are like that. That's like assuming I-no will always do an VCL if she's in the air.

Something to note though, if the HOS you play doesn't FD your offense that's something you really have in your favor. I-no's strength is her mixups. You must use it's potential. High/low/throws/airthrows all of it.

Something I find really odd about I-no... sometimes if I do 5K to early, she'll do j.D and evade and punish my 5K....

I say the matchup is 5-5 or 5.5-4.5....

Weaknessess: HOS can't control space on the level I-no can. Both suffer from being FD but HOS can gain +Fs via CC in case that happens. I-no's mixups are high class but HOS can answer to a lot of her moves. Neither can be reckless in this fight. One KD is all either one of them needs to gain control. They are kinda alike in a sense.

SV = Free throw for I-No. Even if you're only using it for AA.

You're right about the assuming, I was just saying what it's been like from experence thus far.

FDing really works out in I-No's favor. Mixup isn't I-No's only tool and when you FD it makes it very easy for I-No to redash in and try something else.

Never heard of punishing 5K with j.D. I'll have to give that a shot. Is it a opening j.D or a falling j.D?

I agree, this is a catious fight for both sides.

Keep the discussion coming in! Love to hear more.

What's the best tool HOS has for wake up against a throw range I-No?

What sign do you guys use as a tool to know when to burst out of a combo?