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shinquickman

Nerfs or Buffs each character should recieve, GGAC Edition

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I'm bored and there isn't any action in the GG boards (unless you count that 'Are we done with GG?' bit, which is good for lolz), so let's just make a topic about a rebalancing AC. Like the BB thread with the same name, or those ::insert character here:: wishlist threads, but for GG and clumped into one. As balanced as this game is, there are some glaringly obvious facepalm-inducing gimmicks some characters have (or may lack). So everyone, let's here it: What does it take to make AC balanced? List whatever character you feel needs balancing, and also keep in mind how some changes might affect certain matchups. Just one rule: NO NEW MOVES. Top tier to Bottom tier Eddie: -No more stun damage from 6P. He deals high enough damage as it stands. -FB Drill has a wait time where you can't do another FB drill afterwords until a couple of frames (2 full seconds maybe). Just some way to stop repeatable FB drills. Repeat FB drill deals high damage, and makes it too easy for Eddie to get back the dog. Testament: -Forward Beast has a later attack frame. Still the same 2F startup, only making it harder for Testament to trade and get some random counterhit into a loop, and harder to keep people locked down when Testament has no tension. If this isn't enough, Forced Prorate 85%. -1 hit Badlands has less tech time. Some way to take out the knockdown, but keep a little comboability afterwards. ~Backwads Beast does not turn opponents the other way when hit or on block, but still pulls in closer to Testament. This is to prevent those silly instances like Potemkin reflecting the opposite direction (and may even help Potemkin in the matchup). Slayer: -IMO the biggest problem with him is the CH Dead on Time (the big punch OD) into 80%+ damage. Prorate 80% could fix that (forced prorate perhaps) -Vulnerable to followup combos after Chipp's standing grab somehow Baiken: -Ouren (superman) techable (even on CH), reduced guard stun so that it's punishable even on normal block, FRC when she lands. If you want a safe autoguard that hits near across the screen, you have to spend the meter! Jam: -vulnerable to followup combos after Chipp's standing grab somehow. Makes the matchup a little more tolerable for Chipp. -Puffballs force prorate 90%. Not a significant decrease in damage. Potemkin: -Slidehead has less knockdown time. Enough that you can't get a combo after a full distance hammer break. -Heat knuckle gains significantly less tension. Wall loop is still possible, but it's much harder to do. This would help in the matches he does too well in, but would make him even worse against zoning characters, so +Gauntlet is fully grab inv.. Has an FRC. This will help A LOT vs Eddie (his worst matchup). Venom: dunno May: -j.H prorates 85%. So May can still deal damage off of it, only now it' in the 30-40% range and not the 50-80% range. I think this would especially help in the Anji and I-no matchup +3K has 3F low profile like in XX/, travels a little further. -No more FRC. A little compensation. May would be outright terrible vs zoning characters with the above debuff. And I think this could help against Moroha ABA as well (May's worst matchup). Axl: Dunno Ky: Keep the same. Baiken is a problem for Ky, but the above nerf may save this match. Venom is also a bad match, but I don't know how to fix that. Sol: Keep the same. May has a noticeable advantage but with the above change, he may be fine. Robo-Ky: dunno Zappa: Keep the same. He's supposedly bad against Testament, but the above changes to him may save this matchup. Millia: dunno Faust: Dunno Order-Sol: Dunno Dizzy: Dunno Anji: +All his low autoguard moves have more guard point time. Autoguarding lows even with more active time is damn hard since most lows are quick so this wouldn't do much. +3P has an FRC point. -Prorate 80%. This would be GREAT against Baiken and ok against Jam since butterflies are near useless against them, and just another good tool for Anji on anyone else. Proration is there as to not make overhead Shin RC combos completely obsolete. Chipp: Make 6K more like the XX version. -No longer an overhead. +In air state on 1F (so effectively grab inv). Much faster start up. On normal block, keeps Chipp on 0F advantage. Has an FRC point before the active frame; leaves Chipp in the air only long enough for j.D or any moves with equal or less startup to activate. Still prorates and still slides on CH. Personally, Chipp isn't as good in mixup as he should be when an opponent's in the corner. +Grab leaves opponent on the ground longer. No proration on followup. This change is exclusively for the Potemkin matchup, since you can only followup on him after a grab. Longer time is to make the follow up easier (but only a little, by a frame or 2). +When doing a shuriken, your momentum is slowed down and then continues normally, rather than stopping then continuing. This will help even more vs Potemkin than anyone else, since Potemkin is Chipp's worst matchup. +DP has more untech time. Just enough so that you can follow up after an FRC on a normal hit vs any opponent on the ground. These changes are geared more towards making Chipp more contendable against his bad matches (of which he has several). Also note the changes to Jam and Slayer. I-no: Dunno Bridget: Dunno Johnny: Oh yeah this guy needs some things alright. +The second hit of 3H pulls in. Johnny could then do some little mixup afterwards like mist cancel grab, low mist finer, etc. Cause we all know Johnny is lacking in the mixup department. People may learn to SB the second hit eventually, but Johnny could then Mist cancel the first hit or cancel to coin and cause even more mixup. +ground version of Killer joker has more reach. Just enough to hit most crouching characters. This is so that Johnny gets a universial 50% meter 50% damage coinless combo (5K>5H> Mist stance Jackhound, 5K(JI)>5H>KJ into air combo). +More grab reach. Honestly, I don't know why they reduced his grab reach since XX. This is a guy with 0 momentum. Personally, I think all this guy needs is reliable 50% damage on all the cast, but he also needs the 3H pull to help him against those annoying zoning characters.

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Oh I love this thread. Hos: - lvl1 gb Floats lower on normal hit, same float it has now for normal hit as a ch. Gb attack level is increased. Makes lvl1 gb weaker and cost meter to follow up without a ch (needed), and let's gb serve as a better tool for meaty oki with more frame advantage (more options). - ch 6p completely untechable wall bounce on ground or air hit. Can't even use that upper body invincibility when they can just tech as soon as they hit the wall. - the third hit of lvl3 bhb has faster startup or a bigger hitbox. The escapable gap between those hits is a nuisance - 5s(f) has faster startup (maybe 1f), and a smaller hittable box. Giving hos a better tool at midrange rather than a joke for a normal. - 6hs is an untechable ground bounce on ground or air hit, lower damage. I really dislike having useless normals, and 6hs needs a revamp to compete with all of the other tools hos has. Being able to pick up a chargeless, tensionless launch won't be too overpowering, and if it is they could always just tack a forced prorate on. And throwing a 6hs in between dust loop reps just sounds too badass. That's about it really. Nerf lvl1 gb's damage potential and boost some normals. Hos doesn't need too many changes.

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Axl: +5P becomes a 3-4F jab. Current 5P is changed to 4P. Same with 2P, with current 2P becoming 1P (These don't HAVE to be new moves. I'd be happy with them being lazy and giving him someone else's jab, complete with the sprite being temporarily that character). OR 623S becomes full-body invincible again.

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Why you psyduck? 9f 5s(f) puts it on par with venom/axl and faster than ky's. That's about all I'd want out of it. Or to just not eat a ch 6p from may from 1/3 of the screen away just cause she hit the tip of it. That'd be nice too.

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I like the Anji buffs, really intelligent choices, I'd probably add one or two from this list: A. Butterfly goes back to Slash recovery and FB butterfly gets regular AC butterfly recovery. (1 frame less each). B. Make orb knock down again at all heights. (Or give it an FRC point) C. Either return 5H or 6H to slash status, both is prolly too much. I'd honestly prefer 5H i think. I'd take one or two of these even with a nerf or too. Maybe make FB Rin non overhead and not as much frame advantage or something. I'd like em all but that's greedy.

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5hs autoguard that stuffs crossups and is an awesome option select? No thanks. I'll take crazy slash 6hs anyday.

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Why you psyduck? 9f 5s(f) puts it on par with venom/axl and faster than ky's. That's about all I'd want out of it. Or to just not eat a ch 6p from may from 1/3 of the screen away just cause she hit the tip of it. That'd be nice too.

Uh yeah, but you said 1F.

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The mental image for a 1f startup 5s(f) is awesome. Lol poor sentence structure ftw.

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How much lower should the float on GB be? I'm betting that unless it was a lot lower, you could probably still tack on a standard 2S-5HS -> IAD combo. I agree that giving him better setups off of certain moves would be a good boost, but I dunno if GB is the way to go. It's already a pretty damn good move, giving it more frame advantage would be questionable, even with the supposed nerf of lower float. If the float is too low to follow up, there's a good chance you'd end up making it untechable on normal hit, which would mean free oki with the option of extra damage instead by using meter. Sounds strong. I actually wouldn't mind having Slash version of 5S(f) back because the current version is pretty bunz. Give him back GB trade as well. I'd like lvl1BHB to be advantage on guard, +2 as opposed to -2. Give him a better way to set up people without being so damn reliant on Charge. Too often with Charge you have to make a choice between damage or setup and I think it holds HOS back somewhat.

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Great, some responses! If everyone doesn't mind, put a + or a - to represent a buff or a debuff near the changes you list. ~ could represent a neutral change. Anyway...

Hos:

- 6hs is an untechable ground bounce on ground or air hit, lower damage. I really dislike having useless normals, and 6hs needs a revamp to compete with all of the other tools hos has. Being able to pick up a chargeless, tensionless launch won't be too overpowering, and if it is they could always just tack a forced prorate on. And throwing a 6hs in between dust loop reps just sounds too badass.

Hmmm, maybe the ground bounce should only apply on counter hit in the ground. And the stun damage should definitely be removed. Maybe it could bounce high enough on normal hit so that you could throw in a Fefnir, and on CH you could run in and loop. Other changes look pretty cool. I was thinking also of buffing his 2H somehow.

Axl:

+5P becomes a 3-4F jab. Current 5P is changed to 4P. Same with 2P, with current 2P becoming 1P (These don't HAVE to be new moves. I'd be happy with them being lazy and giving him someone else's jab, complete with the sprite being temporarily that character). OR 623S becomes full-body invincible again.

Keep in mind how any of those changes could affect certain matchups. I-no and Anji who are terrible vs Axl would just get it worse.

Keep them coming guys. Really interesting stuff here.

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Venom: dunno

Make Venom's practical combos/setups cool again. Or make his current unpractical combos/setups practical, while making his current practical combos/setups suck.

Robo-Ky: dunno

Whatever changes get made for the next game, hopefully everyone gets brought up/down to Robo-Ky's level.

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Hmmm, maybe the ground bounce should only apply on counter hit in the ground. And the stun damage should definitely be removed. Maybe it could bounce high enough on normal hit so that you could throw in a Fefnir, and on CH you could run in and loop. Other changes look pretty cool. I was thinking also of buffing his 2H somehow.

if 6H were to retain its current speed and j.D's untechable time stayed the same, it'd be a one frame link to hit it during dust loop anyways...which in retrospect sounds completely and totally awesome to me. bring on the manlier-than-Slayer combos. I don't see it happening, though. it's incredibly stupid to fish for counter hits with 6H anyways. it's in counter hit state for the entirety of the move, and the hitbox is kinda silly on it.

I don't think 2H really needs anything either. it works fine on hit with a tight link into 5K or RC into combo, and on block it makes for a good frame trap. making it a frame or two faster obviously couldn't hurt, though.

Ryan-Bill really touched on the only thing that I think needs a big change, 5Sf. it's shit. it's slow, clunky, and it extends hos' hitbox way too much. I'd honestly rather have Slash 5Sf back, because it at least had a semi-decent use.

there's one thing I'd really like to change about hos, though. SV needs to remain grounded until after the first hit. this will really help in the Eddie matchup, because I can know just SV RC little Eddie without having to put myself into too risky pf a situation. the risk/reward factor on lv1 SV will also greatly shift. something like that won't really affect any other matchup too drastically, imo. there are ways to compensate for that lowered risk/reward factor, like having the action charge point shifted until later in the move so that it'll still get punished heavily if you don't have 50%.

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I'd like to see Bridget's overall damage increased. It's not really needed but would probably make her more noobie accessible to give I-No's chemical love auto-jump install properties. I'd love for some new glitch to be created allowing you to airdash after a double jump.

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I hated slash hos 5s(f). As a poke it was pretty impractical and it's only use now would be to tack on a little more height/damage in his combos. ^c 5s(f) has alot of potential to be a good poke, assuming they at least fix that stupid hitbox. And his 6hs stun modifier is x0 in ^c, so no worries about combos into dizzy from hos' end. Lvl1 bhb having frame advantage on guard would be a bit much. -2 isn't bad at all considering how fast his normals are, and you can always just ac frc to stuff throw attempts. I'm actually fine with some resource requirement or needing specific hits to gain momentum; I have more of an issue with regaining momentum than anything else. Lvl1 gb being untechable knockdown but unable to combo after without ch or meter wouldn't be that bad. It's what, 40 damage and another oki attempt off of a crossup? Not really that effective in terms of damage. And while I did love trading hits with gb, that would just be crazy with all the boosts he's picked up.

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Baiken gets old and new j.d, new j.d functions exactly as it does now except GB- is raised to 10, old j.D has GB- of 6 (one is j.d other is j.6d) youzansen frc removes youzansen landing recovery all baku followup damage increased, CH state baku does not nerf tension gain and causes higher guard meter damage when opponent blocks 5hs has added vacuum effect recovery of suzuran reverted to pre-AC (entire move 30frames->28frames long) ground throw range increased to 43 pixels mawarikomi given throw invuln for frames 1-5 j.P startup 7->5, c.5s startup 9->7, 5k startup 8->6 GB- on 6H 15->10 Ouren has 5 added frames of recovery and CH can only be followed up by 5p, but FRC added that can be timed immediately before (airborne) or after landing sakura prorate 85->90

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Baiken

gets old and new j.d, new j.d functions exactly as it does now except GB- is raised to 10, old j.D has GB- of 6 (one is j.d other is j.6d)

youzansen frc removes youzansen landing recovery

all baku followup damage increased, CH state baku does not nerf tension gain and causes higher guard meter damage when opponent blocks

5hs has added vacuum effect

recovery of suzuran reverted to pre-AC (entire move 30frames->28frames long)

ground throw range increased to 43 pixels

mawarikomi given throw invuln for frames 1-5

j.P startup 7->5, c.5s startup 9->7, 5k startup 8->6

GB- on 6H 15->10

Ouren has 5 added frames of recovery and CH can only be followed up by 5p, but FRC added that can be timed immediately before (airborne) or after landing

sakura prorate 85->90

Cuz baiken obviously needs loads of buffs.......:psyduck::yaaay::vbang:

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johnny: - auto jump install on killer joker - make jackhound do bbu damage - make mist stance jackhound just D during mist stance - make divine blade do more damage, since all it does is score shitty knockdown - give ensenga a really late frc (not for one hits, but for use as an overhead) - have 2H pull in on counter hit, that way you can land the dust afterwards - make 2H come out in 4 frames (slayer 2P style) - make level 3 mist finers staple combo starters (upper level 3 kinda works as one) or just make them do level 2 combo damage - take the worthless frc points off of the level 2 mist finers - less recovery on bacchus sigh (where it currently stops on the frc would be nice)

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:rolleyes:

these threads always end up like this

If you're going to have a revised version, everyone should be getting some type of improvements. Changing those things for baiken would do more to increase her options rather than make her current options any more effective (for example changing current j.D GB- and adding old one makes her have to choose between getting knockdowns/spending tension/getting damage instead of just tension vs damage tradeoff)

Baiken is already tension-dependent and doesn't have an easy time getting it. Changing ouren as mentioned would make it's risk-reward much worse (most characters already have pretty good answers to it because of it's lack of invulnerability, but it should be more easily punishable on block with no meter spent)

youzansen frc is unusable right now, 6HS basically pointless in combos because of it's current GB-, 5K is practically useless

She doesn't have enough ground speed to justify 40 pixel throw, it should at least be jam's range.

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