[AC] Johnny AC Discussion

[JOFan]

thanks mister!

[Xaphiel]

It might be a stupid thing to ask about, but I've always been curious. What do you guys think about aiming for getting to Lv3 and busting out with some insanely fast MC skills? How safe would it be to pressure when you can cancel so quickly and get back in? What about watching for a good opening to bust out with a Lv3 combo and recoin? It seems like you could really work that Lv3 to good effect, but you'd be missing out on damage earlier in the match from Lv2 MF's that you might need. I've somewhat considered the option, but I just never see any great JO players working that strategy, so of course I figured it had been thought out and/or tried and then discarded. So what information can you give me, and what are your opinions?

[Kadius]

Level 3 mist finer isn't really something I aim for, to me it's bonus opportunity for Johnny. I tend to look for reliable double coin opportunities. I.E: [on Dizzy] 2D, Coinx2. lvl 2 MFM [in corner], Coinx2, Jackhound. Or KJT, KJ, land, 2P, 5K, Coinx2 [on Pot]. Hmm, I tend to use level 3 as a punish, maybe I should play around with using it offensively as well.

Here's a pretty fun match video of Suzume putting the hurt on an Aba player after he gains level 3.

[4r5]

Whether I go in to Lv3 or not is mostly dependent on the matchup. For example, against Baiken, I take Lv3 to reduce the effectiveness of her Guard-Cancels. Against ABA, I use Lv3 to keep pace with her and to punish/avoid her Danzais more easily. Characters with slow normals/specials, like Dizzy and Potemkin, Lv3 makes the differences in speed even more drastic. But against Sol, Ky, and other characters with good reversals, Lv3 is worth less. I find the damage threat off a MF2 is worth more then the frame advantage given by MC3. Even so, sometimes taking the Lv3 and upping the pace of the match has caught my opponent off guard and netted me the win. I suppose if you are good at doing the MC3 combos and such, then you've risen above it's short comings and now you just have to worry about landing the two coins.

[4r5]

With my stick all fixed up, I'm working on getting my edge back and continuing work on setups and tech that's been left undone.

Anyone remember how I was talking about dashing tkEnsenga and mid-dash OD's? If not, here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=190337&postcount=18

Anyways, I can do dashing tkEnsenga (41236569HS) pretty consistently at the moment. This was originally to trick out people who listen/look for Johnny's dash, but if that doesn't pan out, it at least has the added benefit of "increasing" Ensenga's range.

The problem I'm having now is with mid-dash OD. I can do Johnny's OD as a standing 360, but when I try it (65632147896HS) in a dash I always jump. Which leads me to believe that there might not be any jump start up when you jump-cancel Johnny's dash. Likewise with my original intended 632146569HS. I can do OD as a standing 6321469HS, but go to do it in a dash and I end up jumping. I'll have to look in to this more latter.

Maybe much, much, latter. Mid-dash OD was originally intended to let me just dash in front of people's faces and force an act/don't-act mindgame on them. But there are already well established, and much easier and cheaper, setups for this. (tkDB)

[Hideki]

Any interesting Mist Finer P (lv.2) resets in you repertory? This one works fine once in a while: [Rival cornered] K, c.S, HS, 236+K (lv.2), 236+HS, dash K, c.S, HS, 236+P (lv.2), 236+HS (recovery) > 236+P (lv.2) [reset]...

[4r5]

Been awhile since I fooled around with mistfiner loops. off the top of my head anji, at mid screen, off a maxish range 2D 2D>MSJH, K-HS>HMF2, Coin, HMF2, Coin, j.K-S>Ensenga If I remember right, you can omit the second [HMF2, Coin] for a bigger aircombo. probably depends on how close to a corner you are.

[Hideki]

mistfiner loops

K, c.S, HS, 421+S>S (frc), 236+S (frc), j.S, -land- K, HS, 236+P (lv.2), 236+HS, 236+P (lv.2), 236+HS, j.K-S-Ensenga

In some characters, you might be able to jc the last j.S, with another jc.K-S

[4r5]

I can do OD as a standing 6321469HS, but go to do it in a dash and I end up jumping. I'll have to look in to this more latter.

:slaps head:

To sum it all up. A mid-dash OD isn't possible. Mid dash, Johnny is in the air, so you can't do ground moves out of it.

Sorry to Mitsurugi, and anyone else. Wasn't trying to fool anyone. I must of fooled myself, 'cause I remember I made the original post right after having double-checked, in-game, that it was possible to do. Whatever, it was half a year ago. I'll just chalk it up to delirium from those sleepless cram nights I was doing.

TKing a DB or a KJ is better anyways, for hitting people trying to poke you out of your dash.

[qwerty]

It might be a stupid thing to ask about, but I've always been curious. What do you guys think about aiming for getting to Lv3 and busting out with some insanely fast MC skills? How safe would it be to pressure when you can cancel so quickly and get back in? What about watching for a good opening to bust out with a Lv3 combo and recoin? It seems like you could really work that Lv3 to good effect, but you'd be missing out on damage earlier in the match from Lv2 MF's that you might need. I've somewhat considered the option, but I just never see any great JO players working that strategy, so of course I figured it had been thought out and/or tried and then discarded. So what information can you give me, and what are your opinions?

i mostly only use level 3's for combos against characters that are hard to combo off of level 2's ( and , mainly), but they can be rather useful if you set them up properly. the preferred method is 2D -> level 3 high (though it doesn't work on ky, robo ky, aba or dizzy), but you can also land level 3's off of the same counters you can land level 2's off of.

best level 3 for combos though is easily the high one (MFP), because it has a very long, untechable float effect. even if you end up landing the level 3 from pretty far, you can dash in and still be within perfect range for a combo. i did a quick write up on them in this post, but i'm sure you all could add much more to the info i supplied.

[A:B:A]

I can barely begin a combo after a 2 coin hit.

[10stars]

Ok, for example:

I do K-c.S-HS>MC. Now from here I can do a tkEnsenga, a random LMF, or I can dash back in. If I opt to dash back in, I can come in with a quick mid or a low, or I can walk an extra step and throw.

Now if I dash back in, people see the dash and start blocking low. People in general, if they choose to block, just block low when ever they see Johnny dashing. The current conception is that, at the start of Johnny's dash there is nothing to worry about, and at the end of the dash you only have to worry about a low/mid or a throw. For a person who believes this, a dashing tkEnsenga will hit them every time.

The aim of dashing tkEnsenga and dashing OD are to shake up the current meta-game: Johnny can't do anything dangerous mid dash. The way I envisioned these working is that once mastered it would no longer be safe to block low or poke at a Johnny, who is in mid dash. Which in turn should open people up more for lows and throws. It would introduce a threat, where previously there was no threat.

Absolutely. But do know that when it comes time to do the last direction and button, you either do it or you give up on it. The motion will of left the input buffer, if you second guess yourself, and you will have to rebuffer the entire thing if you see/suspect another opportunity.

Ideally we would do all our forward dashes as either 4123656(9HS)632146(9HS) or 63214656(9HS)632146(9HS)

I fooled around with the idea when AC first came out, but I wasn't really thrilled with the results so I set it aside. A dashing tkKJ FRC has the same problems as a tkKJ FRC: Hits mid, difficult to hit crouching opponents, launches opponents in an unpredictably manner. You also have to be careful with the motion. You don't want to get a superjump when you tk it. And ideally you want to tk it forward, by doing 2149. But on the plus side, on block or whiff, for 25%, you are pretty much guaranteed safety. As opposed to RCing a blocked Ensenga/OD, or worse whiffing them. If you do ever hit with it, the usual BnB air combo will do near half life and is pretty easy to connect.

I can do the dash overdrive 4r5, but can you possibly upload a video with Input enabled of a johnny dash tk ensenga?

[4r5]

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~esara1/dashE.avi here ya go and about the dashing overdrive. you're probably doing it in the recovery portion of the dash, which is nothing special. don't worry about the dashing overdrive, had a discussion with other people on the board, came to the conclusion that the way I had it described (during the airborne portion) isn't possible. even if it were possible, it's moot. TKing a KJ or DB, for the purpose of countering a counter-poke attempt, is better, cheaper, and easier to do.

[10stars]

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~esara1/dashE.avi

here ya go

and about the dashing overdrive. you're probably doing it in the recovery portion of the dash, which is nothing special. don't worry about the dashing overdrive, had a discussion with other people on the board, came to the conclusion that the way I had it described (during the airborne portion) isn't possible.

even if it were possible, it's moot. TKing a KJ or DB, for the purpose of countering a counter-poke attempt, is better, cheaper, and easier to do.

Yeah i found that out by reading over the rest of the posts in the thread after you figured it out xD

[Zewo]

I've been wondering this for a while now. It seems like in every video I see, the player will always string 2H into 5D. And every time the 2H hits, the 5D whiffs. Why even cancel into 5D? Is it to cover for if 2H gets blocked?

[Chomite]

^ that is basically it. 5D is poor coverage but hey, better than not doing anything right?

[4r5]

2HS has 29-35 frames of recover, depending on when it hits. 5D has 28 frames of startup. By canceling 2HS into 5D, you're replacing the recovery frames of 2HS with the startup frames of 5D. You can either sit around doing nothing for half a second, or you can sit around winding up another attack for half a second. Whether you do or don't do the 5D, you're in a CH state till you recover.

[dejeuner]

2H 5D is mad mixup, low-high like crazy edit: lol nevermind, leave it to Johnny's 2H to not even be a low :8/:

[Chomite]

Anyone ever tried this? 5K>JI>5HS>DB Transport>DB FRC>66>j.K>land 2K or j.S or KJ FRC>66>repeat. Just some pressure string in corner that pop'd up into my head. There is a gap between DB transport and DB but I guessed that I can mess around people's head by FRC the transport as well lol.

[4r5]

It's old-school, was awesome back when it launched on hit (and built up GB on block). But now it's kinda :sadface: when people get hit by and you FRC'ed for nothing. It still has a bit of use, with its different trajectory and less lift, but KJ pretty much replaces DB. KJ launches on hit, builds GB, and crossesup better. As you said, there is a gap, so use it sparingly. Also, the counters to a Transport FRC are the same as the counters to the Transport followups.

So how many of you have been keeping up with recent Johnny vids? MK's and Omito's vids, and especially this new guy, White?

I figured this was going to happen. AC changes pointed to this and I hoped that this wouldn't become the only dominate style, but AC 's been going for nearly two years and it just keeps looking more and more like this is going to be the only way to play Johnny.

a couple of example vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D-S_byODM0#t=5m42s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGqkgUP5rbk

To sum it up:

Achieve (as soon as possible) and preserve (for as long as possible) a high Mist Level.

A high Mist Level strengthens pressure.

Tighter pressure fuels tension and jacks guardbar.

Tension enables your combos and guardbar gives way to damage.

If you pay attention to White's, Omito's, and MK's recent vids they all are doing this. Level up MistFiner, then pressuring with lots of HS's, and shoot for the JH combos, or KJT or MC combos. You'll often see them opt out of doing MF combos that they can't garuntee a recoin from. This is also a pretty execution-heavy style, so you'll see them all sometimes miss a MSDJH combo or botch a MC and accidentally fire off a MF.

I suppose in the end nothing has really changed. Everything's just been shuffled around a bit. It's cool that now there's more incentive to go to ML3, but it's not so cool that they almost force you in to. ML0 is weak now. Coins are 0GB+ and JH requires 25%. Coin won't jack the guardbar and you don't have a fast enough MC to get the meter needed for JH combos. I guess we should all say our goodbyes to 壁際のDC.

Start learning them HS>KJT>KJ, MSDJH, and MC combos, guys! I know I haven't.

[Killerwatt]

It's old-school, was awesome back when it launched on hit (and built up GB on block). But now it's kinda :sadface: when people get hit by and you FRC'ed for nothing. It still has a bit of use, with its different trajectory and less lift, but KJ pretty much replaces DB. KJ launches on hit, builds GB, and crossesup better. As you said, there is a gap, so use it sparingly. Also, the counters to a Transport FRC are the same as the counters to the Transport followups.

So how many of you have been keeping up with recent Johnny vids? MK's and Omito's vids, and especially this new guy, White?

I figured this was going to happen. AC changes pointed to this and I hoped that this wouldn't become the only dominate style, but AC 's been going for nearly two years and it just keeps looking more and more like this is going to be the only way to play Johnny.

a couple of example vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D-S_byODM0#t=5m42s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGqkgUP5rbk

To sum it up:

Achieve (as soon as possible) and preserve (for as long as possible) a high Mist Level.

A high Mist Level strengthens pressure.

Tighter pressure fuels tension and jacks guardbar.

Tension enables your combos and guardbar gives way to damage.

If you pay attention to White's, Omito's, and MK's recent vids they all are doing this. Level up MistFiner, then pressuring with lots of HS's, and shoot for the JH combos, or KJT or MC combos. You'll often see them opt out of doing MF combos that they can't garuntee a recoin from. This is also a pretty execution-heavy style, so you'll see them all sometimes miss a MSDJH combo or botch a MC and accidentally fire off a MF.

I suppose in the end nothing has really changed. Everything's just been shuffled around a bit. It's cool that now there's more incentive to go to ML3, but it's not so cool that they almost force you in to. ML0 is weak now. Coins are 0GB+ and JH requires 25%. Coin won't jack the guardbar and you don't have a fast enough MC to get the meter needed for JH combos. I guess we should all say our goodbyes to 壁際のDC.

Start learning them HS>KJT>KJ, MSDJH, and MC combos, guys! I know I haven't.

I certainly have; White's JO is amazing. I saw him chain 5H>JH comvos using LVL3 MCing...it was poetry in motion. It's going to be so hard for me to up my JO game now that I see what it takes to be a good JO; there are many fundamentals I need to improve upon (MCing being priority 1). It's good that we have guys like Omito and the rest to show us what AC JO can do, and hopefully us Western JOs can aspire to their level. And like 4r5 said unless DC can change his style, he's not going to be winning much...such a shame because his JO sure is entertaining to watch.

[render]

Real quick, what's "GB"? Guard Bar? I do agree that the emergent style for Johnny is as you wrote above. That's actually the first time I've seen it explained so concisely. The things working against people for the style is that those combos are highly situational. KJT>KJ combos already have incredibly tricky spacing, which is different for much of the cast. And as you mentioned, it's extremely execution heavy - I find myself missing an MC and getting a MF right in the middle of my pressure... then factor in the different timings for MC at MFlvl1, 2, and 3, and it just compounds the problem. To be quite honest, I'm banking on a new iteration of GG where Johnny (if he's in it! - christ, if he's not, I'm not playing it) will hopefully get retooled to be a little less situational. They need to rethink his moves' execution, as they can really simplify a lot of it. Much like the way David Sirlin has simplified some inputs in Super SF Turbo HD Remix to be easier, Arc System Works needs to do the same for Johnny. Doing so will give the player more room to concentrate on pressure and ...you know, fighting their opponent.

[4r5]

At this point, it's pretty evident that difficult execution is a part of what ArcSys sees as one of Johnny's fundamental character traits. Like how Chipp always has to have the lowest defense of the whole playable cast, even if just by a hundredth of a point. When the next GG comes around, whether Johnny is good or bad, he'll still be breaking joysticks. They'll probably just readjust our payoff for hitting people, again, while finding more ways to make players do pretzel motions.

Real quick, what's "GB"? Guard Bar?

ya

#GB+

is the amount of guardbar adjustment on block

#GB-

is the amount of guardbar adjustment on hit

[D4Nt3]

lol that was insane!!! i dont have my stick for more than a month and i play with my silly ps2 pad >< so many things in my had for practice. where can i find recent jo fights? help plzz

[Killerwatt]

lol that was insane!!!

i dont have my stick for more than a month and i play with my silly ps2 pad >< so many things in my had for practice.

where can i find recent jo fights? help plzz

Check the JO Video Links/Discussion thread. There are recent posts of both Japanese and Western JOs.