[AC] Johnny AC Discussion

[10stars]

is it possible to do hs > tk dbfrc or tk kjfrc into extended shitty air combo?

I was trying it out of curiosity but didnt have much success with it.

i know HS itself is not jump-cancellable but by adding the TK into the move it should theoretically be able to jump install specials like db or kjfrc.

After a few minutes of trying, I cant find any way to do it without a mist cancel. I also can only do it at level 3 on a crouching character. So either Its too fast for me to do 5h > mc > tk kjfrc on a standing character, or its a 1 frame link on crouchers. You also have to be VERY close in order to MC > TKKJ or the KJ will whiff. All in all, if it works against a standing opponent, you lose alot of damage. If you're close enough to 5h > mc > tk, instead do 5h > mc > 5k [ji] > 5h > kjt > kjfrc >insert character specific. And if they're crouching and you're that close, its a free 5h > mc > 5(f)s > 6h > jackhound etc.

[4r5]

I've been doing ...(JI)...HS>KJT>KJ(frc), DB(frc), ...etcetc... The DB after the KJ kinda stabilizes them, so they don't go flying in whatever direction KJ decides to send them. been thinking about incorporating some ...HS>KJT>KJ(frc), land, K/c.S... doesn't do as much damage as a JH, but is safer against bursts. wait, how do you plan to get an air DB off a HS? or do you mean j.HS? Plus, on a standing hit, DB knockdown, any follows would be OTG.

[10stars]

I've been doing ...(JI)...HS>KJT>KJ(frc), DB(frc), ...etcetc...

The DB after the KJ kinda stabilizes them, so they don't go flying in whatever direction KJ decides to send them.

been thinking about incorporating some ...HS>KJT>KJ(frc), land, K/c.S...

doesn't do as much damage as a JH, but is safer against bursts.

wait, how do you plan to get an air DB off a HS? or do you mean j.HS? Plus, on a standing hit, DB knockdown, any follows would be OTG.

I made the assumption that he was talking about 5hs on the ground so i went with that and tried mcing a bit for combos, none of them are worth it. if its j.h then there's alot more you can do than just throwing the kj, landing 5k > insert combos.

And the DB after the KJ to stabilize them is really only needed for the lightweights, Potemkin to slayer don't need it.

Jams floaty ass needs that DB for sure :L

[JOFan]

thanks for the feedback guys. yup i was talking about 5hs setups but the stuff posted by 4r5 is something to look into as well.

[Killerwatt]

Are there any pokes of Johnny's that can be used during MC/Coin pressure that can give him some kind of frame advantage on block? I'm trying out some new MC pressure strings but they can be easily interrupted...I also assume if such a poke does exist it'd have be thrown out during lvl3 MC pressure where recovery is at its maximum?

[Jo]

I was watching a few of Satou's videos on youtube, Killerwatt and it seems that if you're close enough after you land a coin for a pressure string, you can walk up and tag your opponent with a 2K if they try to poke out. From there you can follow up with 2S > 5HS > mist cancel etc. if your attempt was blocked so you can continue pressuring and try to find another way to score a hit. Never really occured to me to try that until I saw it. Now I just have to play someone to try it out. If the people you play just throw out pokes just to throw out pokes, try an early 2HS to stagger them.

[4r5]

Are there any pokes of Johnny's that can be used during MC/Coin pressure that can give him some kind of frame advantage on block? I'm trying out some new MC pressure strings but they can be easily interrupted...I also assume if such a poke does exist it'd have be thrown out during lvl3 MC pressure where recovery is at its maximum?

Lvl of Attack = frames on best Lv1/Lv2/Lv3 Mist Cancel

1 = -3/00/+2

2 = -1/+2/+4

3 = +1/+4/+6

4 = +4/+7/+9

5 = +6/+9/+11

As you can see, pretty much as long as you MC, you're at frames. Some moves like c.S give you more frames if you don't MC, if your lvl is 1.

The most important thing you need to keep in mind about your block strings is that you don't end up pushing yourself out of your optimal range. Hell, alot of times I don't do strings at all. I just do single moves in to MC, and use the frames to inch back forward. Keep my opponent nervous about throws or whatever else .

for frame of reference, forward dash is cancelable to other ground moves on the 10th frame (iirc). I think throws are doable on the 11th frame. I haven't/have no way to test that trying to throw on the 10th frame just gives you 5/6HS.

[qwerty]

for frame of reference, forward dash is cancelable to other ground moves on the 10th frame (iirc). I think throws are doable on the 11th frame. I haven't/have no way to test that trying to throw on the 10th frame just gives you 5/6HS.

just wondering, what would happen if you were to os a throw on the tenth frame? say 6 P+HS for example; would you end up getting the os or would it always come out as 6P?

also, how does fd dashing effect what you can get out/when you can get moves out?

[4r5]

You can FD on the same frames that you can do anything else. Minus that magical frame where you can do anything but throw. I haven't tried OSing on the magic frame, but I imagine it would be like anyone else trying to OS a throw directly out of their run. Since they were never in a state where they could throw, the optionselect just ends up being a fancy way to do a 6P. next time I touch the game, I'll give it a try.

[bjholmes2]

Sorry for the stupid question, but what kind of stuff should I be doing in Training Mode (I have nothing else to do with this game besides Training)? I've sifted through the existing threads and I practice the FRCs and a few B&Bs about an hour a day, but the total amount of info is somewhat overwhelming.

[Honnou]

Sorry for the stupid question, but what kind of stuff should I be doing in Training Mode (I have nothing else to do with this game besides Training)? I've sifted through the existing threads and I practice the FRCs and a few B&Bs about an hour a day, but the total amount of info is somewhat overwhelming.

Honestly, there is a lot to learn and doing so all at once won't do you any good. Don't get overwhelmed. Try to have at least one way to continue hits from various positions and maximize damage, and learn practical ways to start said combos.

For example, hitting ky or sol who missed a DP into crouching stance and going into a combo like 5k, 5s(c/f, doesn't matter unless they're super short for far slash), 5hs, MS Jackhound (if you recover close to them, insert 2p as necessary), then repeat or 2d into coin/mist/jumping okizeme mixup. If Sol does short VV, wait for him to try to do the followup cos you can hit him for over 75% damage if he does so towards the corner IIRC (5hs/6hs CH->killer joker transport, land, then 6hs-> air combo or something like that)Also being able to go into enkasu knockdowns or bigger b&bs off of 6ks and 6ps can lead to better positioning than just a normal jpks jc shsd ensenga combo. Learning distances that stuff will whiff at can be tough. Ex: 5s(f)-> mist finer whiffs at certain ranges, but jackhound connects (this goes for airborne and grounded opponents). Sometimes a 5k (CH or not)-> 5hs will whiff too where a mist finer or JH would've connected. Learn what characters 5s(f) will hit/not hit in positions. IB the last hit of a testament string into EXE beast (either one), and you can always jump out. Jump over and punish/backdash/Dash through Slide head (assuming doing so won't make you get hit by the physical hit). Learning nifty things like using Johnnys 6hs to pass through Venoms 2s/another Johnnys 5s(f)/Robo ky 6p etc. at the very start of the round, etc. This turned out longer than intended, sorry!

[4r5]

You have nothing else to do besides training? If by that you mean you have no competition, then it doesn't matter much what you do. I set the training dummy to random block and random counterhit, then use that to practice block strings and hit confirms. Then I practice FRCs, and FRCing off various hits. Then I go about the BnBs. Then I move on to fixing up whatever thing has costed me a match, or whatever other thing I feel I should of been able to do but didn't. Then if nothing else takes precedences, I move on to whatever other random project. so my priority list looks like this: FRCs and MCs Hitconfirms and BnBs Fixing why I lost Fixing why I didn't win harder Random other stuff The prior I always deal with before moving on to the latter. The latter doesn't mean anything if you haven't got the prior. Though the list isn't absolute. edit: and I guess while I'm here. I was playing Slash earlier in the week and a lot of tech-traps came flooding back. Next Slash session I'll need to jot them down so that I can test to see if they still work in AC. It's like there's a division in my head between Slash and AC Johnny, and there's no crossover between the two. Only one that I remember the whole setup for was 2D>Coin, dash, 6H If they tech the coin back or neutral, the 6H will tag them, forcing them to FD. Air FDing the 6H cost roughly 25% meter. edit2: have I already talked about this one?

[Honnou]

so my priority list looks like this:

FRCs and MCs

Hitconfirms and BnBs

Fixing why I lost

Fixing why I didn't win harder

Random other stuff

The prior I always deal with before moving on to the latter. The latter doesn't mean anything if you haven't got the prior. Though the list isn't absolute.

edit: and I guess while I'm here. I was playing Slash earlier in the week and a lot of tech-traps came flooding back. Next Slash session I'll need to jot them down so that I can test to see if they still work in AC. It's like there's a division in my head between Slash and AC Johnny, and there's no crossover between the two.

Only one that I remember the whole setup for was

2D>Coin, dash, 6H

If they tech the coin back or neutral, the 6H will tag them, forcing them to FD. Air FDing the 6H cost roughly 25% meter.

edit2: have I already talked about this one?

I like the priority list, what I wrote was just out of sorts and off the top of my head. Organizational skills ftw.

I never thought about 6hs for a tech trap, I usually used it to OTG someone right after throwing the soon to OTG coin, and JI-ing KJT or IADing from there into pressure as they tech out.

What about the old OTG coin and then a MC dash Jackhound to catch their air tech? It was better back in Slash with the free JH, but it is still plausible in AC. I often do a coin into an air dash slash to catch a back air tech where they didn't block and when they do block, it gets me closer to them to apply pressure. If you do a 6p/6hs as the coin OTGs the opponent and they dont tech, the j.s can cross them over too. i think that was in the johnny tips combo vid.

[4r5]

When Slash came out, I've briefly thought about JH for tech traps, then I quickly thought about the insane punishments that happen on block. Slash they were ok, since it was free.But AC, 75% to make it safe? I would like to think we can do better. I don't air dash to pursue coin techs, people can reaction front tech and air throw you. Though as I understand the speed differences between Slash and AC better and better I think my standards for reaction time may be set too high, for AC.

[Luminaire]

I've only recently started seriously playing GGAC, and even more recently decided to make Johnny my main. So my question is a bit general: How do you decide whether to use your level 2 mist finer versus going for a second coin and level 3?

[4r5]

Generally speaking, you get better damage off level 2 mist finers, but level 3 mist cancels give you better pressure. What level to shoot for depends on the matchup and your playstyle.

[4r5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUO3iGUksUI

Why have you decided not to do Mist Finer combos?

There's alot of matchups where doing MF combos feels like I'm taking one step forward, two steps backwards. I think vsABA is the most obvious example of this. Matchups like vsChipp, yeah, just blow your load.

I still don't exactly understand what you mean about vs. ABA personally. Could you further explain. Also I really do miss playing with Jo in Slash, he was so gdlk. When it comes to using almost everything.

ABA is hard to get coins on. You can't land coin off a throw, and landing coins from 2D sacs your knockdown. To get your coins, you commonly need to just throw them randomly or land a CH. The cost, of a MistFiner, is going up, while the rewards remain the same. Higher Mist Lvl also makes MC to block Danzai easier and gives you tighter pressure.

Chipp, on the other hand, he takes so much friggan damage, the reward is going up, while the cost remains the same.

I just like to get back at least equal to, or more, than what I put in.

It's like, I can do a MF combo on ABA, I get all the Oooo's and Aaaa's for doing Johnny stuff, but then I become invested in that MistFiner and have to spend more meter to ensure that I at least get a knockdown out of this investment. Then find myself back at Mist Lvl 1 with less meter then I started with and a crimped tension pulse. And now I need to regain those Mist Lvls, while being less threatening to ABA.

Or I can just combo to a HS or 2D; keep my Mist Lvl, have more meter then I started with, and have a strengthen tension pulse, while being at frames/knockdown. And I'm still threatening, while not having made more work for myself. Or in the case of comboing to MSJH, I get the same knockdown and roughly the same damage, and I get to keep my Mist Lvl.

I guess the difference for me is that I'm planning long-term. My damage may not be coming in big chunks, but at least I'm maintaining good flow.

I haven't tooled around with other questions yet. Like, "Should I be doing MF combos that ends me with the same Mist Lvl that I started with, or is it better to save the coins for zoning?" Right now, now that I am aware of the speed glitch, I'm just focus my efforts on retooling a lot of my rhythm, reflexes, and reactions from Slash to AC.

[A3Religion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUO3iGUksUI

ABA is hard to get coins on. You can't land coin off a throw, and landing coins from 2D sacs your knockdown. To get your coins, you commonly need to just throw them randomly or land a CH. The cost, of a MistFiner, is going up, while the rewards remain the same. Higher Mist Lvl also makes MC to block Danzai easier and gives you tighter pressure.

Chipp, on the other hand, he takes so much friggan damage, the reward is going up, while the cost remains the same.

I just like to get back at least equal to, or more, than what I put in.

It's like, I can do a MF combo on ABA, I get all the Oooo's and Aaaa's for doing Johnny stuff, but then I become invested in that MistFiner and have to spend more meter to ensure that I at least get a knockdown out of this investment. Then find myself back at Mist Lvl 1 with less meter then I started with and a crimped tension pulse. And now I need to regain those Mist Lvls, while being less threatening to ABA.

Or I can just combo to a HS or 2D; keep my Mist Lvl, have more meter then I started with, and have a strengthen tension pulse, while being at frames/knockdown. And I'm still threatening, while not having made more work for myself. Or in the case of comboing to MSJH, I get the same knockdown and roughly the same damage, and I get to keep my Mist Lvl.

I guess the difference for me is that I'm planning long-term. My damage may not be coming in big chunks, but at least I'm maintaining good flow.

I haven't tooled around with other questions yet. Like, "Should I be doing MF combos that ends me with the same Mist Lvl that I started with, or is it better to save the coins for zoning?" Right now, now that I am aware of the speed glitch, I'm just focus my efforts on retooling a lot of my rhythm, reflexes, and reactions from Slash to AC.

Alright I understand a bit of what you are saying in the battle of Momentum vs. Going for broke. I feel like though you can have your cake and eat it too. Yeah you can't throw into coin this is true. Though you can use it to keep her in check and your nearly guaranteed to hit her b/c her body is too long to avoid the coin. Also on her wakeup Danzai, you can coin on her second hit for CH and then 2D her for knockdown.

The only ABA experience I have had honestly though is Moroha. Being in lvl 2 actually set the pace for the match for me. I would Unblockable loop in the corner or Corner enkasu combo into Mist into Mf K lvl 2 into Mist into Mf S lvl 1 when she would come out of Moroha I would Mist and then hit her with coin back into Reset. I did that in a couple of instances but I would use the Mf lvl 2 actually to keep the character in check or for setups more than for offense purposes to a point which you are right. Your also right not to rely on it but I feel your smart enough to use in other ways besides offensively. Also the BNB I use on her for setup not damage is K-HS-MF S lvl2-c.S-sj.P-j.S-j.HS-KJ frc-j.HS-DB. Just some ideas to mull over, JO players always find a way.

The questions you were pondering on are good options.

[qwerty]

i would actually argue that against any character with a substantial life bar that the reward for low mist finer combos goes down significantly because you're often times barely breaking 40% against characters like aba, pot, etc, even if you're spending meter on it. and the same goes for any sort of damage combo really, but mist finers are the worst offenders because they cost the most. best solution is to use kj jump install combos, imo

[A3Religion]

KJ jump install combos are not bad but the whole point of what I was saying was to use the lvl 2 mf for set ups and resets as opposed to damage combos. Lvl 2 MFs are critical aspect of his playstyle, there is never a reason to completely cut out any move of his honestly. There is always a way to put something in to work in your favor.

[qwerty]

well i was more responding to 4r5, but i did specifically talk about low mist finer combos. i think everyone will agree in saying that mid mist finer knockdown combos are crucial (especially against the characters i was talking about, since they usually end up doing more damage than low mist finer ones against them), but at the same time nobody was really disputing it. it's just that if you're going to base a style around nothing but hitconfirming and spending meter, you may as well do it right, right?

[Camo]

Using MF mid or low just depend of the position. Uses low MF in corner will be just a nonsense. Usually if you want coin Aba after a Throw, use a FRC may be the best option. Joh has always tension. If the Aba isn't very carefull you can destroy her all time. And of course never forget Jck Combos who are still powerfull and easily hit confirmable.* But 4r5 you can't play without MF with Joh otherwise you can't win.

[drassill]

I agree! But lot of possibilities for Knockdown A.B.A in corner... 1) coin (A.B.A players guard down 1 of 3) > esenga RC > Enkasu > MF combo... 2) loop coin Esenga RC ... it work in France ahahahha 3) any knockdown > enkasu > MF combo 4) if A.B.A have not moroha gauge, divine blade or Killer joker combo... 5) kick on fire... Bad match-up for A.B.A (in the corner only mwaaahahhaha)

[Camo]

Divine Blade combo ? Too risky I guess but KJ Combo Yes ! Pretty easy on Aba and Enkasu too. You can easily make a death loop in the corner ended by Destroy.

[Killerwatt]

I really see where 4r5 is coming from with all this, especially against ABA. In my own game I'm trying to make getting KD after combos a priority, because landing that big impressive long combo sometimes really means having to start from scratch, and I end up working doubly hard for that second coin into combo. Perhaps a solution lies in nailing the 6FRC6 KJ combos off of midscreen low MFL2? Or maybe that's character specific?