OH GOD JUMP: The rensen-Rashousen mixup

[Digital Watches]

I posted this in the Johnny forum, figuring that while Axl players know this, other players might have a little trouble. Then I realized that while it seems intuitive/obvious to me, I've been playing a long time and it's not really specifically outlined anywhere (That I can find.) Anyway, in case anyone was confused (You probably weren't), here's an explanation of the Rensen/Rashousen mixup situation:

Axl defaults to Rensen as something to use after he's expended any gatling options/gotten too far away from the opponent to hit them with more blockstring. While you can make this a solid blockstring by ending your string with something high-level (e.g. 5H->Rensen) and cancelling right away (Which you especially do if you want to FRC and keep your string going), Axl will more often, intentionally or not, leave a small frame window between the last normal and the rensen. If you're especially impatient and think this window is somehow big enough to poke out (Er, it's not, 'nuff said), people will try to jump or swing or something, and rensen will just eat the startup and knock you down, giving Axl free oki. Continuing to block is almost always your best option, because eating a rensen is a free knockdown, or, if the Axl GUESSES you'll do that and FRCs it (or just has ungodly good reaction time) a free combo, which will probably hurt a lot because you were just blocking shit and your guardbar is up..

However, Axl can screw with you for trying to block, because he has Rashousen, and until the special effects come in (The green bubbly stuff or the Blue giant zappa-orb thing), the animations are exactly the same. What this means is that if you know you can't jump out of the string before the rensen hits, you're probably going to sit there and block, and although Rashousen isn't fast, it's a lot of frames in before you can tell it's not a rensen, and it doesn't count as a commandgrab, so it'll eat your jump startup if you try to jump too late. This is made especially dangerous now that Axl has a feint for the move, so that basically, if he fakes it and you jump late, you're at a great range for Axl to kill you with his stupid-good AA, which, best case, you faultless and get into another blockstring, minus a chunk of meter, and worst case, you get smacked and take a good 1/3-2/3 of your life, depending on character, spacing, whatever.

The OPTIMAL solution to Rashousen is to jump early. That is to say, REALLY fucking early, right when you're out of blockstun, because that way, even if Axl does the feint, you get a free punish, because it's just not fast enough to recover. The problem with that is, well, you know, jumping too early makes you eat a rensen, and it's hard to tell. You can 1FJ, but then you won't get the forward IAD, and probably won't get your punish. Plus it gets complicated, because this is Guilty Gear and Axl can pretty much throw rensen/Rashou into his string at a LOT of places, so you can't as easily memorize the situation and watch out for it after specific string-ender moves.

Essentially, it's a lot of conditioning and visual ambiguity. While it's definitely true that a lot of people play impatiently and just try to jump/poke out/stop blocking and eat Rensen, you'll see it among people who aren't quite as bad at defense because Rashousen strikes fear into the hearts of man and beast alike.

[bbq sauce]

Word. I find doing this off low level shit like 5k xx rashou or 5k xx rensen works well for this kind of guessing game, to be worth noting, too. 5k xx rashousen hits a lot of people just based on the fact that it's unexpected early in a block string, especially when you're right in their face, doing a move that's almost 30f start up off a lvl2 move.. nobody expects you to be that ballsy. After seeing it the first time, you get to play the same game you described. Only problem is that IB'ing 5k can let them punish rensen or rashou with a fast enough move.. but with decent spacing (~max range to gatling cl.5S range) can make them think twice about IB > buttons. Unless they've got the eye of tiger and can just see rensen/rashou start up and react fast enough punish it off IB. edit: Off 5k xx rensen, you'll likely want to FRC every time, as point blank rensen (I believe) puts you at a disadvantage on block.

[Digital Watches]

I covered that in the general blanket statement "Plus it gets complicated, because this is Guilty Gear and Axl can pretty much throw rensen/Rashou into his string at a LOT of places, so you can't as easily memorize the situation and watch out for it after specific string-ender moves."

I hesitated to say where specifically, because for the most part, you can throw it in pretty much anywhere. Most commonly I'll do 6H, 5K->Rensen/Rashou, but I try to mix it up, and I'm sure other people have different habits/strings that they use more often.

[Oiboi]

I don't have nearly enough experience against Axl, but my general idea when I'm trying to get in on him as Zappa, especially if I think he's gonna do the rensen/rashousen mixup, is to jump forward and FD-- A little tricky to do, but it's possible to get the vulnerability frame down to 3 frames, even a 1 frame jump if I'm going really fast and desperately trying to get it. Though 1 frame jumping won't net me good forward momentum, it'll ruin the ambiguity of the situation-- If it's a Rensen, I block it. If it's a Rashousen, I can get over it and go for the punish. The issue with this idea is that the Rensen follow up can just toss me right back into the corner even on block, so Axl gets massive options off this.

I think the only SOLID option for most characters in this situation is to try to Instant block one of Axl's attacks and reversal punish, particularly any of his chain moves (though good axl's will cancel off the first attack if they expect this to keep themselves safe-- I saw you doing it watches). This is especially true with Zappa who is willing to get a trade from full screen on say, 2A, just to get some orbs and possible get inside, as 2A counter hit doesn't offer as much penalty as getting hit by Summon counterhit, which leaves Zappa at an advantage (free oki and 3 orbs potentially). Likewise, this is why using 6K or 5A against Zappa is bad, as he can just run under them and hit the chain with summon for free punish depending on his spacing (6k he'd just try to hit axl, mind you). The idea against Axl is that Axl is only dangerous to Zappa if he can keep the distance to what he wants, but if Zappa gets in close, Axl is in a tight spot. Zappa's mixup and shenanigans make Axl's counters practically useless, and trying to guess which benten to use to keep yourself safe is ambiguous at best. This ends up leaving a very weird matchup, where Zappa actually has more power than his opponent for once, but lacks the zoning tools he needs to do much with it-- Even the ghosts can become a liability if the Axl has meter to super punish them.

This situation is an interesting cycle that Axl can perpetuate ad infinitum if he so wishes-- Zappa vs Rensen/Rashousen is pretty weak, because jumping can put him back where he doesn't want to be even if he blocks it, and Rashousen obviously can catch him off guard if he tries to wait it out. So a smart Axl will abuse this against him, but an even smarter Axl will try to bait the Zappa into the punish-- He's gonna try it-- and get that free 6K once Zappa jumps, especially since Zappa is terrible in the air.

The only time this situation becomes in Zappa's favor is if he has the dog either between them or behind Axl, or if he has Raou to get a fast 5HS/6HS hit depending on distance to put the heat on Axl after a blockstring or after rensen block. The reasons why Zappa gets the advantage here should be obvious. If Zappa has the ghosts, he can do P toss in hopes of tricking the Axl into continuing his attacks and getting hit, which gives him pressure and frees him up to move as he wishes. The sword is weakest in this situation but can net possibly the best rewards if he guesses for his punish properly.

Obviously a lot of this is specific to Zappa, but some of it can be related to other characters as well-- namely, anyone with a reversal can do any of the reversal options Zappa has can do something with it. Especially DP's need to be kept in check by the Axl, because otherwise that shit will just ruin his day.

[Digital Watches]

I don't have nearly enough experience against Axl, but my general idea when I'm trying to get in on him as Zappa, especially if I think he's gonna do the rensen/rashousen mixup, is to jump forward and FD-- A little tricky to do, but it's possible to get the vulnerability frame down to 3 frames,

The issue here is that generally if you're getting hit by Rensen, you're going to be hit in jump startup, not once you're already in the air.

even a 1 frame jump if I'm going really fast and desperately trying to get it. Though 1 frame jumping won't net me good forward momentum, it'll ruin the ambiguity of the situation-- If it's a Rensen, I block it. If it's a Rashousen, I can get over it and go for the punish. The issue with this idea is that the Rensen follow up can just toss me right back into the corner even on block, so Axl gets massive options off this.

Yeah, 1FJ is a decent enough option. Gotta do it quick to punish rashou feint though, since it's only 36F (And the jump doesn't happen 'til you're outta blockstun).

I think the only SOLID option for most characters in this situation is to try to Instant block one of Axl's attacks and reversal punish, particularly any of his chain moves (though good axl's will cancel off the first attack if they expect this to keep themselves safe-- I saw you doing it watches).

I hesitate to call IB->Reversal a "solid" option, but yes, if you can make a gap, Axl moves tend to have a lot of startup. Don't get baited, lol.

This is especially true with Zappa who is willing to get a trade from full screen on say, 2A, just to get some orbs and possible get inside, as 2A counter hit doesn't offer as much penalty as getting hit by Summon counterhit, which leaves Zappa at an advantage (free oki and 3 orbs potentially).

Er, you got A in my P!~ But in all seriousness, the only neutral thing you should be looking out for from Axl is 2H (And this is a Zappa thing, a lot of matchups that's actually kind of a bad plan too). 2P is really just to hold you in blockstun when he's sure you won't do anything about it, such as if you're already in blockstun or just not expecting it. Throwing 2P is pretty much suicidal most of the time, since it's got like, garbage-tier priority.

Likewise, this is why using 6K or 5A against Zappa is bad, as he can just run under them and hit the chain with summon for free punish depending on his spacing (6k he'd just try to hit axl, mind you).

Troof, though I'd be surprised if you could explain to me why I would ever throw out a 6K intentionally while you're on the ground (5P a little less so, since it'll punish you for trying to ghost fireball, but still it's not something to poke with)

The idea against Axl is that Axl is only dangerous to Zappa if he can keep the distance to what he wants, but if Zappa gets in close, Axl is in a tight spot.

Naw, Axl only gets to zone Zappa a little because stuff like 3P and 2H hurts him for assuming he can run under stuff. Playing this as a keepaway matchup (Axl only has like 5 of those) is free game for a good Zappa. Well, unless you've got the sword. Then I get to keep you out all day. Zoning from this matchup should really be from midscreen, about 3P/f.S range, since Zappa has no real answers for that distance.

Zappa's mixup and shenanigans make Axl's counters practically useless, and trying to guess which benten to use to keep yourself safe is ambiguous at best.

Well, sort of. Zappa pressure ends up being not that scary without dog (Triplets will do in a pinch if you have meter, but it's only optimal if you get a curse off.) Zappa does want to be close, but that's because he just can't do anything from far away. It may just be experience, but Zappa getting in doesn't make me sweat.

This ends up leaving a very weird matchup, where Zappa actually has more power than his opponent for once, but lacks the zoning tools he needs to do much with it-- Even the ghosts can become a liability if the Axl has meter to super punish them.

Eh, Super is a pretty dumb thing to try against ghosts, I don't really see why anyone would want to do that. From neutral and distance, you just AA Zappa out of projectile spamming as best you can, and if he goes in, it's just, you know, block and hit him when there's a gap. It's only a problem if you get possessed, at which point flying rocks and banana peels and stuff make it tough for Axl to safely get out. In other words, patience.

This situation is an interesting cycle that Axl can perpetuate ad infinitum if he so wishes-- Zappa vs Rensen/Rashousen is pretty weak, because jumping can put him back where he doesn't want to be even if he blocks it, and Rashousen obviously can catch him off guard if he tries to wait it out. So a smart Axl will abuse this against him, but an even smarter Axl will try to bait the Zappa into the punish-- He's gonna try it-- and get that free 6K once Zappa jumps, especially since Zappa is terrible in the air.

Aye. It's unfortunate for Zappa, but he kind of just has to play the guessing game.

The only time this situation becomes in Zappa's favor is if he has the dog either between them or behind Axl, or if he has Raou to get a fast 5HS/6HS hit depending on distance to put the heat on Axl after a blockstring or after rensen block.

Yeah, and this is crucial: Axl players need to remember to be conservative with your offense when Zappa has dog or Raou. Especially the latter, either do a real blockstring or just fish for counterhits while he does stuff.

The reasons why Zappa gets the advantage here should be obvious. If Zappa has the ghosts, he can do P toss in hopes of tricking the Axl into continuing his attacks and getting hit, which gives him pressure and frees him up to move as he wishes.

I'm unsure why throwing a ghost in the middle of getting hit by a blockstring could be a good idea. Presumably you'd just get punished.

The sword is weakest in this situation but can net possibly the best rewards if he guesses for his punish properly.

Troof.

Obviously a lot of this is specific to Zappa, but some of it can be related to other characters as well-- namely, anyone with a reversal can do any of the reversal options Zappa has can do something with it. Especially DP's need to be kept in check by the Axl, because otherwise that shit will just ruin his day.

Well yeah, but DPs will ruin anyone's day if they're a scrub and don't know when to look for/bait them.

[ehuangsan]

I think it's better to just not worry about eating the Rashousen and concentrate on blocking and creating space to watch for it instead. Although, I didn't realize it was supposed to be a mixup until I read it here (I guess I'm the idiot that blocks the Rensen almost every time). Instead, just watch and FD the normal block strings at the opportune moments to push him away and create some space. At the right spacing, you should be able to visually confirm the Rashousen coming out and react with a short hop punish (like TK ensenga) or an IAD. If he Rensens instead, just normal block it and get some of the tension back; it's not like he can FRC rensen forever. Of course, Axl has the fake Rashousen mixup, or sometimes your reflexes just fail. But if he fakes, then the situation resets to neutral, and it's all good. If you get hit by the Rashousen, then just keep in mind that it doesn't really hurt all that much (dunno exact numbers, but it looks like a throw's worth of damage), and the one time you do react to it correctly will be the time where you make up for all the lost damage and then some. EDIT: Also, if you're not in the corner, you can react to the Rashousen pause by jumping straight back and FDing. Fake Rashousen or not, he can't punish your jump back in time.

[Oiboi]

Snip!

I'm too lazy to do the quote thing.

From what I understand, instant blocking Axl's pokes is pretty much the best way of getting a reversal option in, i.e. Summon or DP'ing the chain after a 5P or whatever. I could be wrong on this since I don't have much experience vs Axl, but if I remember right, instant blocking gave a window between both chain hits to do a reversal or the like. Obviously you need to anticipate it a good deal.

Also, LOL 2A mah bad. Too much anti BB hype yaknawmsayin.

If you think 36 frames is fast, I hate to see what you think is slow! People react to Zappa's summon all the time, which is why I try to counter hit or combo into it rather than just throwing it out, and it's only a 10 frame startup. Likewise, I react to Slayer's BBU with 6P and that's a 10 frame startup as well. So 36 frames isn't that bad, the trick is reacting AND reacting in a way that you can get a punish or a better positional advantage in, rather than say backdashing away or something.

6K is a silly move, especially if your opponent is on the ground as it whiffs just about everyone anyways, but I'm referring to if Zappa can come in from the angle where it looks like Axl can poke him but he really can't due to his tiny size, and then Zappa lands right at Axl's feet and gets free 6P's!

The thing with 3P is that Zappa can 5K over it. It's true, test it out. It's why if I'm rushing down, I almost only use 6P or 5K-- sometimes a random silly overhead cuz that's just Zappa shenanigans. 2HS is meaty as fuck on Zappa, but Zappa can at least try for a summon trade or if he has the sword, get that free DP up in your grill. 2HS is great for Oki vs Zappa though, believe it or not. Most zappa players admit to trying to get wakeup summon most of the time, and that 2HS will beat out that attempt probably 100% of the time, and when it doesn't, you'll at least get a trade.

As for Zappa and Pressure, I lol'd. Zappa doesn't have pressure without the dog or Raou, and even for the dog it's about making you make a mistake so he can kill you. It's ALL about mixup for Zappa. With this in mind, if you do lower-invulnerability Benten or try the Low counter, Zappa can 5K. Likewise, with the upper body Benten and upper counter, zappa can 6P! This is why Zappa is dangerous on rushdown against characters (and to a larger extent, players) who place a lot of emphasis on what kind of move their opponent is using. Baiken also falls victim to this, because even if she blocks properly and goes for a counter, Zappa can simply cancel into Summon/Sword dp/Dog attack/Edguy once he sees it coming (and before you say that's too fast, I do it habitually whenever I fight baikens, so it's a moot point). A lot of Zappa's blockstrings suck because it can help bait his opponent into making a stupid move and punishing them -hard- for it.

Also, you totally counter-supered my P ghost toss twice after I tossed it and rushed in. So don't gimmie that (unless you were thinking about the other super, which is definitely a dumb idea. Should've clarified lol). Also, Even with ghosts I don't like getting in the air with zappa unless I'm close enough to do Crossup j.HS shenanigans.

Ah, yes, the blockstring-ghost silliness. Zappa can toss P ghost and FRC fast enough to sneak it inside gaps in loose blockstrings, or when he anticipates an imminent attack-- And then FD the hit, forcing his opponent to get blindsided by the sudden ghost smacking them mid-attack. The reason why FD is preferred is because it often increases hitstop, for moves that have it.

Ehuangsan: You say that now, but then he tricks you into getting hit by Rashousan 4 times in a row. Not such a good idea to wait it out anymore, is it? 75 damage each time stacks up, not to mention chip damage and his oki options after the fact.

[ehuangsan]

Ehuangsan: You say that now, but then he tricks you into getting hit by Rashousan 4 times in a row. Not such a good idea to wait it out anymore, is it? 75 damage each time stacks up, not to mention chip damage and his oki options after the fact.

If your reflexes have failed you up to that point, then at the very least you'll have enough tension after the third one to DAA out.

And if reacting is simply not an option, then waste a gold burst when you see the Rashousen pause and tell yourself never to allow that situation to occur for the rest of the round

[Digital Watches]

Actually, EHuang's approach that he described is a very smart one. Blocking a rensen isn't bad, and it's definitely a fact that pushing Axl out with FD makes it much easier to confirm Rashou. Generally, Axl doesn't have to stop his blockstring when you FD (Rensen FRC is great) but he loses this mixup option unless you're really slow. Oiboi: You can't summon in the air! If Axl is seriously throwing 5P against a grounded Zappa at neutral, he's either trying some really shady mindgames, dicking around, or doesn't know what he's doing. But yeah, 6P (FULL BODY INVULN, I SWEAR) and 5K are good ways to get over Axl's lows if he tries to nab you with one. Of course, it helps that 3P hits from WAY too far away for you to counter hit him from... but yeah, definitely a solution. This stuff really belongs in the matchup section. If you don't mind me moving these posts, we can go into a more detailed discussion there. And 36F is pretty fast when you consider that you're in blockstun for about 18F of that from 5H (Less with other moves or if you IB, but still a good chunk of it), normal jumping takes 3F to get off the ground, and Airdashing takes time to get over there, along with the attack startup. Like I said, you can jump soon enough to punish it, but Rensen/rashou startup is ambiguous for at least 10F, so you're either 1fJing (And giving up the ability to IAD) or guessing.

[Oiboi]

Actually, EHuang's approach that he described is a very smart one. Blocking a rensen isn't bad, and it's definitely a fact that pushing Axl out with FD makes it much easier to confirm Rashou. Generally, Axl doesn't have to stop his blockstring when you FD (Rensen FRC is great) but he loses this mixup option unless you're really slow.

Oiboi: You can't summon in the air! If Axl is seriously throwing 5P against a grounded Zappa at neutral, he's either trying some really shady mindgames, dicking around, or doesn't know what he's doing. But yeah, 6P (FULL BODY INVULN, I SWEAR) and 5K are good ways to get over Axl's lows if he tries to nab you with one. Of course, it helps that 3P hits from WAY too far away for you to counter hit him from... but yeah, definitely a solution. This stuff really belongs in the matchup section. If you don't mind me moving these posts, we can go into a more detailed discussion there.

And 36F is pretty fast when you consider that you're in blockstun for about 18F of that from 5H (Less with other moves or if you IB, but still a good chunk of it), normal jumping takes 3F to get off the ground, and Airdashing takes time to get over there, along with the attack startup. Like I said, you can jump soon enough to punish it, but Rensen/rashou startup is ambiguous for at least 10F, so you're either 1fJing (And giving up the ability to IAD) or guessing.

Yeah I don't mind moving them. I was just giving my thoughts on the situation because I know a lot of things can translate to other characters.

As for the frame window for reacting to Rensen/Rashou: You can see him going into the pose and beginning to execute the move even during the blockstun. Blockstun doesn't change -reaction- time, it only changes the time that you're actually able to act. So once I know you're going to attack, I can prepare to execute my option as soon as I'm able, which is very easy because you can prime inputs during those 18 frames (so if you were foolish enough to be close enough, I could DAA or Super as an example-- not that it's a particularly good option here, just giving an example of uses for that).

[Digital Watches]

Right, the note on the ambiguous frames was really just to imply that you can't exactly see what's going on from frame 1 while in blockstun. And yeah, probably wouldn't recommend trying to DAA super out, especially from the distance you're normally at. I guess super would usually connect, but if I was just going to FRC rensen anyway... OOPS. You fucked up, guess that's 50% of your meter and you're still blocking.

[MacArthur Blunts]

ITT: A bunch of stuff about stuff and stuff and stuff If you FD axl a little bit, there is more room between you two, making it easier to tell which one it is. Or one of his moves whiffs and you get a free sweep or whatever. This mixup is clutch though and if you're not good at recognizing it, Axl will eat you alive. (but axl just remember that if Slayer BDC DOT's and you're doing like 2H, rensen, blue-fucky orb, 6H it's going to be pain city.)

[Digital Watches]

Slayer hurts.