AC: Got Oki?

[Digital Watches]

Since the oki section of the tactics thread is nonexistant, and Axl's Oki game is super-important, I think it warrants a thread devoted to it. Since Axl's got a good amount of options, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not covering half of the things one can do. I'm also a big fan of ridiculous impractical stuff, so I'll do my best note things you're not going to use a lot. Note that I have tried all of this sucessfully, but that doesn't mean that it'll work on everyone, or very often, or on every character even. Oki game has a lot to do with getting a sense for what works when, versus whom, etc.

As with any thread on this forum, don't be afraid to correct or add stuff.

c.S and 5H Cool meaties to start combos with. Not particularly special. Both hit mid, combo into sweep, are special cancellable, and are fairly big. 5H is notable in that it's level 5, and has a weird hitbox that makes a lot of things go through it (I'd call it upper-body invulnerability, but the frame data disagrees).

f.S This can be useful merely by virtue of a very disjointed hitbox and stagger on counterhit. I don't use it much, but it beats a lot of weaker reversals, as well as premature throw attempts.

2K - My favorite meaty, hits low, can be made to hit outside of throw range of most characters and still combo into c.S. It recovers really quickly, goes under a ton of things (including Vapor Thrust), etc. I probably wouldn't use this against Sol unless I was 159% sure he wouldn't use VV.

3P - The cool kids' version of 2K. You can do it from much further away and still combo (Again, if you're one of the cool kids, you can do 2D into Rensen off of this at basically maximum range.) While this doesn't go under much, it's pretty safe against most reversals if spaced and meatied properly.

TK Bomber - This is a nice overhead, and as a lv. 6 move with almost no recovery (if TK'd right), it has frame advantage on block. Not reversal safe at all, but it is safe against most throw whiffs (6H, 5H, what have you). If you're in the corner and they don't block, you get some nice massive combos into knockdown. This is a nice way to beat a throw attempt by some characters.

6H - Another overhead, only use this if you're confident in your ability to meaty it very deep. It's a great way to score a ground combo without prorating, and is also very safe on block (except against Potemkin) but it's also... not very reversal safe at all. You can sometimes bait and beat a throw with this, but it's pretty easy to see before one would have to make the judgement as to whether to attempt to throw you.

Raeisageki (S) - Especially with jump install options, this thing is nice. Go for a crossup, non crossup, FRC and throw, FRC and backdash, FRC and block, FRC, dj.Throw. Whatever. It's cool. This is no different from the non-oki usage of the move.

Raeisageki (H) - If you're psychic and really hate having meter, then this is for you. Do it just in time to bait whatever reversal you know for a fact that your opponent will use, land on them in the first few frames of recovery, RC into big combo. Yeah. Good luck with that one. If you can pull it off, however, it'll almost surely net you a combo. The variance you're allowed lets you wait out any reversal in the game and usually counterhit it. Then, after the RC puts you instantly on the ground, you've got ample untech time to hit with something into a combo, whether your opponent is on the ground or in the air.

2H - A good meaty against people who don't block low or stagger on wakeup. You want to hit with the last few frames of the pullback so as to give your opponent minimum time to stagger.

Housoubako Dragon-punch counter, this will beat basically any non-low reversal that only hits once. Really, not that good an idea most of the time, but the cool thing about this one is that you can input it 2 frames before the reversal will hit you. If your reaction time is awesome, this is for you. It gives you a knockdown, or a big combo, if you get a counterhit or cancel into the FB followup. Either way, it's nice that it's unblockable. Don't try this against VV. Also, this is strictly a once-in-a-blue-moon thing against good players. They will learn fast, you will probably get baited.

Tenhouseki A REAL man's catch. Might be good to get Sol scared to VV. Not good for much else that isn't already covered, due to terrible recovery.

Byakuerenshou! Oki... super? It's better than you think, but that's not saying much. It's invulnerable for quite a good chunk of time, and the invulnerability starts at frame one. It can be input in the middle of any super flash, as long as the opposing super starts at least one frame after the flash. It will beat a good 1/2 of the supers in the game if input in this manner (Particularly Zappa's unsummon super and May's anchor super.) It'll also get you through a throw attempt. It also knocks down. Anyway, it's not that great, as it's really punishable, unsafe on block, etc., but is good for some of the situations mentioned, and is also massive style points. Either way, it's better than trying to do it as a reversal, which is a terrible idea the majority of the time.

Rensen Mainly just there to force the opponent to block. Follow it up to beat an IAD or to force them to block low and for longer, or just FRC it and continue pressure.

Running Kokuugeki Running in is getting into the cool kids' territory again. Basically, when you're running, you make yourself look a lot more vulnerable than you actually are. This will not work as well on experienced players, but it still creates a highly ambiguous situation to deal with, since you can do any of the above oki options while running, not to mention blocking or empty jumping. People who are inclined to try to reversal throw will often fall for run, TK kokuugeki (or jump, delay, kokuugeki, or IAD kokuugeki... you get the point.) This will counterhit if they attempt to throw, and may not even require meter to get you a nice combo. Try to time the jump at the last possible moment, as this will make it more difficult to react to. Your goal is to be in the air no sooner than the frame they press the hardslash button. The true danger of this to your opponent is that it will make your opponent hesitate to throw you on wakeup, making throw range more accessable as an oki position (This is somewhat character specific, as a lot of characters don't rely on wakeup throw much.) This allows for new options, like running FD into throw.

j.H A running j.H is totally safe and starts good combos or pressure. It's a great, reversal-safe way to start oki. It can be used straight, with an airdash, as a mixup alternative to empty-jumping, and is one of Axl's best multi-crossup options. (Gwyrgwyn Blood, Kobayashi)

j.S A meaty second-hit j.S is a good, lenient way to start a ground combo. (Gwyrgwyn Blood)

Anyway, I hope that some of this stuff is at least decently usable, and that more, probably better stuff will be added by other players.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

I usually use a running j.H as that's totally safe and starts good combos or pressure. Another good option is to just hit the second hit of j.S because that's safe and also vacuums in. Of course another I love to do is run up, jump over, back dash, j.H |> K, 63214S. Keeps people guessing where you will hit them. Double bonus for JI'ed into another air back dash. Doesn't really get combos started well but it's good for being a mosquito.

[Kobayashi]

Yeah, j.H is a great reversal safe way to start Oki (reversal upper or backdash). -10 points to DWatches for not including it in his first post. D:

[Digital Watches]

Thanks! I completely forgot to mention j.H as an oki option, and didn't even think of meaty j.S. Gotta try that sometime.

[RabiteCake]

Thanks! I completely forgot to mention j.H as an oki option, and didn't even think of meaty j.S. Gotta try that sometime.

you also don't mention dash FD break naked throw aka "the zappa killer" anti-summoning. in lots of cases it's good if you time it so that you enter into their throw range after their reversal throw window has passed so you 1 frame throw any whiffs caused by their missed wakeup throw attempt, or just for the sake of surprise. with certain option select throws it can be evil even if they attempt to 1 frame jump. <333

[Shoto]

Axl is not really an oki chara.. It doesn't matter how he gets the frame advantage after that he has some options.. There are only a few things that really only apply to oki situations.. so for Axl okizeme basically means baiting players into doing the wrong thing and avoiding dragon punches. Except that it is mainly a chance to start rushing.. So I disagree with some stuff in this thread.. Don't take it personal, it's just that many options either lead to nothing except your opponent wont even hold his feet still on wakeup (in which cast just everything will work and that nor due to your great gameplan but due too the stupidness of your opponent :P) or is just to risky (especially if you face an opponent who holds his feet still on wakeup^^). Playing it safe is the first rule.. we have beginners in this forum, don't give them the wrong ideas^^. the stuff mentioned: No catches as oki.. neither 623P nor the 214 catches.. If someone is so dump to constantly reversal than just block and punish. We are talking about an option where your opponent just has to do absolutely nothing and will get rewarded with free damage while he has to do something very risky for your to score with a catch. OD on wakeup? Well it goes through an awful lot of things but it wastes half 50% tension if it doesn't and gets your ass kicked.. and that in a game where in most cases blocking is the best option on wakeup.. sure if you have an enemy that mashes wakeup supers or just throws anytime you are near him or can't hold his feet still it may work.. but against such players you should win anyway^^. j.2S and rensen FRC.. This as oki? This is special stuff that allows you to build up pressure against an "moving enemy" that tries to hit you as well. You don't need to do that on Wakeup :P.. and even that j.2S is an overhead.. if a players jumps as oki everybody will block high for at least the first hit. 6H: This one is ok It is great if you need to cover some distance after you grounded your opponent, but only if they have no good reversal. Furthermore if you have the time to let it completely whiff it works quite well as a reversal bait.. but the throw bait stuff fires back more often than it succeeds, so forget about that usage. 2H: Has some use as long range okizeme option.. but who doesn't block low on wakeup? Does Axl have this unbelievable fast or invisible overhead I don't know of? It may catch them if you expect a backdash (usually this will only happen if your opponent sees that you don't have the time for a perfect meaty) but you can't combo from it as they are considered airborne while BDing.. 3P, S(f) and 5H don't do anything for themselves.. they are only useful in combination with what follows after.. and these options are covered in the rushdwon thread btw. :P. Raeisageki (H) Is best done after a KD so well yeah it is an oki only option. Can be used as cross up and fake cross up so it has it uses.. just the 50% tension is a little drawback. Raeisageki (S) Against charas with no reversal this is quite nice if done from running as many look out for a 6H which may be your only meaty option if you grounded them from a distance. Nevertheless on wakeup most players will react on you, i.e. use all their concentration on what you do.. so it generally is something you won't succeed with. Then a non cross up Raeisageki (S) will leave you in a huge disadvantage.. the risk is just to high in my eyes. The Jump Installed sound quite good^^.. should try it out myself^^.. j.H? cross up? reversal safe? Please explain.. I somethimes use j.H, Bomber as a primitive frame trap and for gaining frame advantage (but thats not oki only)

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

j.H is completely reversal safe exactly the same way every other j. normal is safe oki. Gives you good frame advantage, lets you punish backdashes, keeps you safe against reversals, the works. It's not a crossup though unless you just do silly stuff to annoy people with it (air back dash setups), and those aren't really great so much as just decent to pull out once in a while (although you can do some neat stuff close to the corner with it). Plus once you can get people to accept the fact they can't beat it, you can start using basic AtG setups into 2K with it, or an early jump delayed Bomber as well. Unfortunately, Axl is no Venom, so trying to be tricky with this is not really safe, so it seems like it's better just to stick with the j.H most of the time. I don't know what you are talking about with j.2S ... I didn't know he had a j.2S.

[NerdJosh]

Where is the run jump land 2k or iad p-k sexyness?

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

I mentioned the run jump land 2K in that last post. IAD P-K I do use but it's kind of risky and all that.

[ForestBlazer]

j.H? reversal safe? Please explain.. )

I was about to say the same thing

j.H is completely reversal safe exactly the same way every other j. normal is safe oki. Gives you good frame advantage, lets you punish backdashes, keeps you safe against reversals, the works. .

Can you please explain this in more detail because it is not working for me. In my experiences, all uppercuts and most supers will always beat a jump in attack(on wake up too). I even went into training mode just now(I only have Reload ^_^) and tried jumping in using air HS with both AX & TE against Sol doing an uppercut on his wake up. After about 20 tries of this with each char, I ended up eating 20 uppercuts with each char

Is the jump HS supposed to beat the uppercut? clash with it? make it whiff???

Also is there a specific timing or distance that this must be done at??? I've been trying to time the HS to hit the instant they wake up and the HS hitting Sol right in the face.

A more detailed explanation would be much appreciated.

Tenhouseki A REAL man's catch. Might be good to get Sol scared to VV. Not good for much else that isn't already covered, due to terrible recovery.

DAMN RIGHT!!! That's some FOREST BLAZING tactics right there

I especially like to use it when the opponent has red tension because I find people are less scared to get baited due to the fact that they can simply RC the uppercut. The catch won't give them that chance

[Digital Watches]

Playing it safe is the first rule.. we have beginners in this forum, don't give them the wrong ideas^^.

I disagreed with some of the things you said, until I read this part. Most of the options I mentioned are like... wacky, once-a-match-at-most ideas, so perhaps beginners would be best served playing it safe every time, like you say.

No catches as oki.. neither 623P nor the 214 catches.. If someone is so dump to constantly reversal than just block and punish. We are talking about an option where your opponent just has to do absolutely nothing and will get rewarded with free damage while he has to do something very risky for your to score with a catch.

Notes: 623 catch should be used only if you are able to react to something happening. This, of course, is difficult, and comes with matchup experience. I only mention it because of the 1-frame startup, which makes it more ideal than blocking against some reversals. I am well aware that this is a very risky move. The only reason I even mention the 214 catch is for occasional use against VV.

OD on wakeup? Well it goes through an awful lot of things but it wastes half 50% tension if it doesn't and gets your ass kicked.. and that in a game where in most cases blocking is the best option on wakeup.. sure if you have an enemy that mashes wakeup supers or just throws anytime you are near him or can't hold his feet still it may work.. but against such players you should win anyway^^.

Again, this is a reaction time thing. If you know which supers have startup after the superflash and not enough invincibility to go through Axl's, leaving yourself just outside of throw range and then inputting the super motion during a super freeze is the only way to cleanly beat supers that hit one frame after the super flash (May's anchor super is an example.) Of course I'm not advocating using it as a meaty or anything.

j.2S and rensen FRC.. This as oki? This is special stuff that allows you to build up pressure against an "moving enemy" that tries to hit you as well. You don't need to do that on Wakeup :P. and even that j.2S is an overhead.. if a players jumps on oki everybody will block low for at least the first hit.

I'm a little hesitant to advocate j.S as an oki option as well. I haven't tried it myself, and it sounds very susceptible to... a lot of things that can be done on wakeup. G. Blood, since you suggested it, could you weigh in with any experience on the matter?

6H:

This one is ok

It is great if you need to cover some distance after you grounded your opponent, but only if they have no good reversal. Furthermore if you have the time to let it completely whiff it works quite well as a reversal bait.. but the throw bait stuff fires back more often than it succeeds, so forget about that usage.

Yeah. Like I said, it's no throw bait againsty anyone good, what with the 11 frames between starting the move and leaving the ground for the opponent to simply decide it's not a good idea to throw. Please note that this is already mentioned.

2H: Has some use as long range okizeme option.. but who doesn't block low on wakeup? Does Axl have this unbelievable fast or invisible overhead I don't know of?

It may catch them if you expect a backdash (usually this will only happen if your opponent sees that you don't have the time for a perfect meaty) but you can't combo from it as they are considered airborne while BDing..

Regardless of whether they block low, it's hard to beat with most reversals from far away, and thus forces them to either block it or try to backdash, creating an advantageous situation for Axl.

3P, S(f) and 5H don't do anything for themselves.. they are only useful in combination with what follows after.. and these options are covered in the rushdwon thread btw. :P.

Hadn't noticed that. Thanks.

Raeisageki (S)

Against charas with no reversal this is quite nice if done from running as many look out for a 6H which may be your only meaty option if you grounded them from a distance.

Nevertheless on wakeup most players will react on you, i.e. use all their concentration on what you do.. so it generally is something you won't succeed with.

Then a non cross up Raeisageki (S) will leave you in a huge disadvantage.. the risk is just to high in my eyes.

The Jump Installed sound quite good^^.. should try it out myself^^..

Yes, the jump-install is what makes this viable as an oki option (as well as a move in general). I go over it in more detail in the "Strategy and Tactics" thread. You should check it out.

j.H? cross up? reversal safe? Please explain..

I somethimes use j.H, Bomber as a primitive frame trap and for gaining frame advantage (but thats not oki only)

I was actually wondering about the reversal safeness of it myself, but the crossup option, as G. Blood mentioned, can be rather ambiguous, especially if the opponent is expecting a jump->Kokuugeki. Therefore: Jump over, air backdash, j.H is a good double-crossup if you can pull it off.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Okay... any time you land on the ground from the air, you recover instantly. This includes being in the middle of moves (note that some characters have specials which cause recovery on landing, such as Ky's projectiles and Potemkin's j.D). If you do a meaty attack on the first frames someone wakes up and then hit the ground, you recover instantly. This means that you can have active frames on the enemy while they are waking up but land in time to block any DP or supers. The timing is usually a margin of about 3F, since most DPs have a startup of that or more. It's the same thing for every character in the game. Potemkin's is famous, the sj.S setup. Plenty of other characters use it all the time too though. If it sounds hard... it's really not. You just practice it a bit and get used to it. You can do it both with a run jump or an air dash (if you are far away), but the timing is obviously different for each. Axl's j.S is harder to work with because not only do you have to time your recovery properly, but what you really want is for the second hit to connect, so you get all of the guard stun AND the vacuum in addition. The run>jump>land>2K setup is just an extension of this. Once players start to realize they can't DP or reversal throw the j.HS, you can instead jump a few frames early, wiff the j.HS, and land and 2K. This is a really basic Air to Ground style mixup. You can also further mix up the early jump in by air dashing into j.P j.K to give you another overhead option. You've probably seen Sol do the same thing with Gunflame FRC > run jump > then either air dash j.S j.H VV, or land into 2K S 6P. Venom also does the same thing with any pool ball setups into run jump, then hitting another ball, then either landing and doing 2K etc or air dashing into j.S j.H. And if it lends any credibility, I see Japanese players using j.HS and j.S as oki, and AtG mixups are a staple of 2D fighting games. As far as 'wacky once in a match' style oki... personally I much prefer and recommend to stick with SAFE and effective strategies. Playing risky isn't really smart.

[GuerrillaTactic]

I believe that it's to do with start-up on reversal timing, basically you want your move to connect during the start-up period of the VV, he will be invincible and so you can't hit him, however his move hasn't started up yet, so he can't hit you either. You do however need to be using a move that has NO landing recovery, so that by the time you land, you can block the move as it becomes active. I could quote the exact frames but I can't be bothered, I might post it at a later date.

[Shoto]

@ Watches

Hope you took no offence.. I like that you are an active poster (and your Axl is said to have some value^^) and have your own view, but so have I^^.

..but really one thing I have to say that needs to get into every players mind: After you know your stuff getting better is not about adding new stuff.. it becomes about taking risky stuff out and re-exploring stuff.. (this goes actually to all not to Watches in specfic^^)

Knowing the mind of the opponent is an important skill, but it will never be so good that you can throw in risky stuff because you know what your opponent is doing next (of course you do all to bait them into something or try to makes things unattractive for them).. So minimize your risk (as long as your not forced to risk something as the match is terribly not going your way).

Look trough Japanese matchvids.. tell me how often you see "random" risky stuff..

@ GB:

ah right, you mean safe jumps.. completely forgotten about them (just know them from ST) :P.. nevertheless while the recovery of your jumping normal is cancelled, isn't there an own landing recovery that every jump has? If not you wouldn't get thrown every time you do an empty jump in.. (but if you say this recovery is short enough to block again I of course believe you^^')

----------------

Nevertheless.. some of my once in a while okis.. use with care and know that I recommend none of them and use them very seldom for myself (and somehow I feel dirty posting them :P):

whiffed rensen, tap 2.. The rensen whiffs, but the tap2 follow up hits meaty or near meaty.. best use this against charas who have no real way of punishing it (I guess there are more who can't then who can and even those only should get a single poke).. but I use it realy never since it gets blocked by all the good players and against the weaker I don't need such stuff :P.

If they where cornered the follow up will vacum them out, allowing crossups like jumping over them, Bomber.. again not too great but well.. this thread seems to be about such stuff..

2P (next to opponent), Unblockable

For some reaons this works quite well even against good players (at least if the 2P hits).. use it very seldom and be aware of the risk.. using the feint is useless in this range as they won't jump but simply poke you out of it if they realise the blue light..

and do 2P, rensen as mixup to it.. it combos in that range and if they expect such stuff (honestly there is nothing else you can do as 63214S won't hit them if you do it that near.

..against cornered opponent: 2P (quite near), 63214S.. well in this case it hits as the wall won't let you get away :P, and since the second hit of 2P vacuums them out of the corner it will even hit as crossup. Of course you can mix it up with the 2P, Unblockable as well..

If you think that your lucky day is even luckier, do 2P right next to them, then throw after the second hit..

and it has been mentioned somewhere, but I guess not in this thread: a TK Bomber that just whiffes (quite hard to judge if it will still hit or whiff if you are getting up), then throw.

and ok.. I though about this.. there is one matchup in which I tend to use 623P as oki:

vs. INO.. she has this overdrive that works well as wakeup reversal and gives her frame advantage and has quite some range.. so it is normally quite a good choice.. If she has 50% tension keep out of fast poke range (but near enough that it looks like you want to attack but try to look aggressive (run forward for example).. if the super hits you win.. even gets you a CH if I remember it right.. and it doesn't get you punished if she does just block since no fast normal will reach you in time :P

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

There might be 1F of landing recovery when you can't block, but I don't think any more at all is possible. I've been using safe jump in oki with Potemkin since X2 so if it didn't work, I'd think I'd have noticed by now. :x

[Shoto]

never doubted that ^^

[Digital Watches]

Aye, no harm, no foul, man. I'm not one to take disagreements personally, so no need to worry about offending me. Either way, I agree that for the most part, playing it safe is always better, but even in Japanese match vids, I see some really cool stuff that players do very infrequently that seems to work merely by virtue of being completely unexpected. Situational or unusual options are that way for a reason, and by no means do I endorse doing any of this wacky stuff with any degree of frequency. But I DO think that it's important to do it sometimes, and moreover, as a general rule, to have knowledge of huge amounts of options at any given time. Also: That stuff you mention is really good. I've used 2P, rashousen a lot, and never even thought of 2P vacuuming in the corner for a corner crossup. I also like the meaty 8 Rensen followup, and am thinking of uses for it (Unfortunately, Portland hasn't been playing much lately)

[Shoto]

another wacky oki variation: 2P (next to opponent), UB [feint], throw leads to B-Loops against cornered opponents, but as said before: not safe..

[BlackRose]

another wacky oki variation:

2P (next to opponent), UB [feint], throw

leads to B-Loops against cornered opponents, but as said before: not safe..

nice!! air throw? since most will jump if done right:yaaay:

[Shoto]

ehr no.. this implies they are not getting it and are blocking.. Rashousen feint + throw are faster than the unfeinted rashousen and near the corner a throw means more follow up damage.. The air throw thing works as well as long as you're near enough :P. Just keep in mind that the nearer they get the more likely they are to just do a fast poke instead of jumping out.. .. try not to fall in love with such stuff, it's no real mixup it's simply tricks that will get you killed if your opponent sees behind them :P..

[Beowulf]

Can Kokuugeki be considered as a cross-up ? I mean when you IAD and do it just when you cross the other character. Thus a counter hit isn't needed if you FRC it. Am I wrong ? I saw a stupid thing like "unblockable on wake up" after a 63214+S hit... Is that possible or is it just me having stupid dreams ?

[Digital Watches]

Yeah, I cross up with kokuugeki a lot. Just remember that if you didn't knock down with an airthrow, you have to make sure it's not meaty to cross up.

[Beowulf]

I'm wondering then, does the guy have the time to air-throw me if I don't hit meaty ? I mean the distance is far enough ? In fact, how safe is this okizeme if I can FRC it ? P.S : unblockable on wake up... yes or no ?

[Digital Watches]

I'm wondering then, does the guy have the time to air-throw me if I don't hit meaty ?

I'm pretty sure you're too high up to be airthrown before the move comes out if you do it right.

I mean the distance is far enough ? In fact, how safe is this okizeme if I can FRC it ?

Kokuu FRC is fairly safe oki against characters who don't have VV or something similar.

P.S : unblockable on wake up... yes or no ?

Naw. People who say that can't block.

[HolyOrderChipp]

There IS meaty Rashousen after a Raiesageki S.