Revamping Zappa: How to Shenanigans (And More!)

[Oiboi]

Ok, my old advanced thread was super unorganized and I've learned a great deal since then, so I figured now, with the newer Zappa's popping up, it'd be a perfect time to start this over.

Introduction: Zappa Love!

The very first thing you need to know about Zappa is that he is WEIRD. Becoming familiar with his oddities is first priority. How he moves, what he runs over, how much momentum you get from certain actions-- everything is very specific to Zappa. However, perhaps even more important is to learn how to be as random as Zappa himself, and to out-shenanigans anyone you meet.

The Moves: Zappa Loves Bullshit

No, really. A lot of Zappa's moves are absolute bullshit for some reason or another. Some may sound amazing on paper, and some may sound absolutely terrible on paper. But in actual play, it doesn't tend to really work out that way.

I will be referring to the frame data throughout this guide so make sure you familiarize yourself with it: http://dustloop.com/guides/ggac/data/ac/zappa.html

Naked Zappa

5P -- Looks like your basic jab, right? Wrong. In all modes except for Dog and Naked, Zappa can chain this move into itself like most characters. You mash it, it hits a couple times. But if you have the dog or no summon, you can only cancel it into another move. Keep this in mind when doing pressure/combos, or else you'll fuck yourself up. Not much here except for stuffing meaty's or the like.

2P -- The brother of 5P. Same thing as above. Best for getting those quick anti-tick throw jabs.

j.P -- The aerial sibling of his other P's. Great when mixed with random ghost combos! But utterly useless when he's Naked.

6P -- The GOD of anti-airs. This move is incredibly deceptive. It's also one of his few moves that you can call a "shenanigan move." If you're ballsy enough, you can use this as a great rushdown and anti-rushdown tool, you can stuff nearly EVERY air attack in the game, and if you're being pressured, wait for a predictable move you know you can get under and bam, instantly got a combo. The way 6P works is a little tricky: As soon as you activate it, from frame 1 to 13, you are 'above knees' invulnerable. Normally this means about 3/4's of a characters body is invulnerable-- similar to Sol's 6P. But not for Zappa. Zappa's animation is weird-- his knee gets -very- close to the ground, and thus 'above knees' is almost ALL of his body. This move is your go-to for close range. Throw it out and hope for the best.

5K -- Another "Shenanigan Move." This is like the opposite of 6P, it gives lower body invincibility. A great tool if you know their going to try to sweep you. 6P and 5K together are powerful tools-- use either one randomly and the opponent will have to guess which move they have to do in order to stop it. They can just block, which is certainly the better option-- but a lot of people get antsy when they see Zappa rushing, especially if you're pressuring with the dog or the ghosts.

2K -- A nice little 'slide' poke. Good vs. Throws in certain situations, but I most often use it for dog combos and trying to create some distance.

j.K -- A quick little kick that's almost completely horizontal. Nothing notable about it other than it's good combo stuffer.

c.S -- A quick little swipe. VERY short ranged, but is actually a pretty great move. Has very little pushback (you can seamlessly go from c.S to f.S and still have room to continue a pressure string with the dog), and can even serve as an awkward anti-air in certain situations. Definitely useful vs. crossup attempts, such as after a blocked TK Badlands from Testament.

f.S -- This move is almost a shenanigan move, but not quite. This is Naked Zappa's and Dog Zappa's solid move. Many people use this mostly to apply pressure and as a poke to get pressure for a combo. The way the move works is that it comes out rather quickly (quick enough, mind you-- it's not a freebie), and the spit launches a good distance before splatting on the ground, causing a short 'slip' state on hit. However, when it's on the ground, it does NO damage, but still prorates. So combos starting from this won't deal quite as much damage, but it doesn't matter-- Naked Zappa will always go into a summon combo, and Dog Zappa... Let's just say, Dog Zappa is notorious with this move. This move also has another specific use that I really like using it for: Distance measurement. That's right. At max range, this move will keep you absolutely safe from any Potemkin buster attempts, while keeping you in range for you to deal damage no matter which character you're fighting. As naked Zappa, f.S range is exactly where you want to be. It's rather weak on it's own, however, and actually hitting with the spit while it's in the air is sometimes less advantageous than you'd want.

2S -- I hardly ever use this move, honestly. And I don't see a lot of Zappa's using it either. Best use you can have for it is to chain into after 2K to create some distance, but it's debatable whether 2D is better for that: 2D is only 1 frame more of startup and they have the same recoveries, and it's hitbox is more reliable. 2S has some freaky 'low stance' data going on in it, and it staggers on ground CH... which honestly, how often is that ever going to happen? Not very often.

j.S -- Similar to j.K but has a bigger hitbox, both attacking and defensively (hittable). You can do j.K j.S jc j.K j.S pretty easily if you suck at air combos, or j.K j.S jc j.S j.D if you think you're fancy (yes that's really the extent of Zappa's air combos while naked. Anything else is -seriously- just useless combo video stuff).

5HS -- I call this move "THE ULTIMATE BULLSHIT MOVE". Why? Well, a couple reasons. 1: It's absolutely useless without tension. You can be GRABBED ON HIT if you do not FRC or RC. 2: It has TWO FRC'S (seriously). You can do some weird, very fine frame trap shenanigans if you choose one FRC or the other. It also makes it easier to FRC. 3: If you space it just right, this move can sort of mess with people who try to throw you, and they'll think they can't do it until they realize they can, and they try it, only to get poked with 2K. 5HS is one of Zappa's weirdest move, and becomes a great shenanigans move because of it's overhead properties if you randomly toss it out among odd 5D's and 6HS's. My favorite thing to do is to spam one of the overheads constantly until they finally start blocking it, then toss out another-- which is what this move is perfect at. With it's FRC's, you can get a good combo off of it's hit, which is rare for an overhead. When I first started with Zappa, this move seemed absolutely useless, but it's found a specific niche in my gameplay.

6HS -- The chest toss. A great move in and of itself simply for the sheer fact of how often it actually hits. It's very slow and very easy to see coming, yet the amount of times it hits is amazing. People will often try to counter it, and sometimes, if they do a DP, they do hit you. But other times you just get a free counter hit. And other times they just don't block right. This move IS very risky, however, and on block, it's a completely free combo for the opponent if you don't RC. But here's a catch: If you land a normal hit in the corner, and they wall bounce, the ONLY WAY for them to tech out is if they back tech. If they don't know this, you can get a free summon off of it. If it's a corner counter hit, it's a free summon either way, so enjoy.

2HS -- THE BITE (Zappa version). God I love this move. Looks pretty weird, right? This is Zappa's meaty. You set this up right and you can crank guard meter (especially with the dog), Land counter hits, and in a combo, you can dizzy an opponent in very short order. Comboing with it is tricky but if you figure it out, it's just one hell of a sick move that makes people absolutely fear it. Abuse it. Love it.

j.HS -- A GREAT crossup move. Has almost only backwards range on it. On counterhit, you can land and do c.S off of it. On normal hits, it's not a guaranteed combo, but sometimes you'll land it anyways. Great vs any character who thinks they can zone you except Dizzy. Dizzy's just too strong son.

5D -- A strange dust. Zappa gets lower invul during the middle of it, and he also gets grab invul, making this move perfect for unsuspecting suckers waking up. Just stand on top of them and use it, and laugh as they try to throw you, only to be hit. Slow, of course, but you can get a summon off of it on anyone EXCEPT ABA or Venom. It's a strange dust in that it's the only dust that can be gatling cancelled into special moves. This is different from Faust's Dust Cancelling, where he kara cancels his dust to get invul frames on other moves-- this is AFTER the move hits, you can perform a special move. It's really only useful for the summon, though.

2D -- Normal sweep. Zappa gets pretty small, but it won't go under stuff like 6P or Sol's 2D. Staple for good damaging summon combos: 6P/5K 2D Summon (short and sweet), or if you're fancy, 5K c.S 2D Summon (but won't hit on smaller characters). I almost always summon after I land this move, whether I think it'll hit or not. Keeps you safe from bursts and they'll be OTG long enough for you to recover and apply Oki as needed.

j.D -- A weird aerial launcher. Good for ending combos, and can sort of cross up in just the right situations. Pretty ok damage for what it is. Nothing too special here.

Specials

236P -- The Summon. This is sort of a tricky move. Most newbies will ADORE using this to counter hit random pokes and stuff, but it's best to get rid of that habit before it's too late. I have crazy fast reaction speed (5-8 frames generally) and even I can get baited into using this move and getting punished.

Rule #1 of using the Summon: NEVER use it outside of a combo.

You may be asking yourself, "But Oiboi, what if they're doing blahblah" No. Just trust me on this. You will survive much longer if you do not use this outside of combos. The ONLY exceptions are when you know it's guaranteed, like punishing ABA's Danzai or a DP or other high-recovery/long startup moves. And you have to really be confident for it too. You can try it, but 9 times out of 10, you will get beat out, especially against characters like Slayer who also have weird invulnerable moves. Of course, that one time of 10 is all you need sometimes-- none of this is set in stone, but this is definitely great advice you should be looking to put into your game. Play safe with the summon. Zappa does not have a lot of health, and he's pretty easy to combo for most of the cast.

Rule #2 -- If you got tension, RC it!

That's right. Blow it like you're a millionaire. You see that tension? USE IT. USE IT AS SOON AS IT HITS. If you're risking it and they block it, you can still be safe. If you're in a combo?

6P/5K 2D Summon RC 66 2HS Summon RC 66 2HS Summon 214S(Edguy) = BEST FUCKING COMBO ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET.

You will be flashy as fuck AND pissing your opponent off AND being a crazy shenanigans asshole AND still be playing completely safely and properly. Zappa is a beast once he gets a hit in-- make sure everyone you fight knows this. The only way Zappa can deal comparative damage to the rest of the cast is with the Dog or Raou. You need to know this and you need to make sure you're opponent doesn't realize how dangerously close you are to getting a game winning combo. This is why you play it safe with the summon. It can be devastating how powerful a nasty instant Raou combo is to an opponents psyche in a heated match. The good players will shake it off, but most people will be overwhelmed and try something stupid, giving you the match on a silver platter.

FYI, that combo really only works on heavyweights like Pot/HOS and people with big hitboxes like POT/Dizzy. You need to substitute 5P for 2HS usually. On Ky you need to do 5P summon rc 66 c.S-- I know, wtf, but that's how it works.

Rule #3 -- Know your chances.

Knowing what you can beat and when with the summon is a powerful weapon. I know I said never to try it-- but if you know you can do it, do it. You can get the instant raou combo from a random stationary summon if you're fast enough, and that can really turn the match around.

Zappa Loves THE TRIPLETS

Ok these guys are crazy assholes. If you need to be a complete jackass for about three minutes, this is the summon for you.

Normals (Changes)

5P, 2P, j.P -- These all chain into themselves now. Very handy for extending a combo while waiting for ghosts to catch up/return, and in general, air combos. Also great for pressure for the same reasons.

c.S -- Ok now this is where the moneymaker is. c.S is just a short, quick smack with one of the ghosts at very short range, but it's real danger lies in when and where you use it. You can cancel the move into itself up to three times (or however many ghosts you have at the moment), but then you're stuck in recovery unless you cancel into another move that ISN'T f.S. That's right. It can't cancel into f.S unless you push the opponent really far away first. So be wary of what you do with it.

f.S -- Similar to above, except that it has HUGE RANGE now. Almost a real poke, but the ghost can still be 'hit'. It can be used as frame traps or counterhitting certain moves if you time it right.

2S -- Similar to c.S, but lower! Same properties as well, except it can cancel into f.S.

j.S -- A slow and awkward head smack that looks like 5HS. Good for landing some strange jump ins sometimes.

5HS -- A big, slow 'whack' with the head of one of the ghosts. Has a certain property I'll get to below.

2HS -- Ground ghost explosion. Subpar in comparison to the air version, but still has some valid uses (distance/area denial)

6HS -- PAINFULLY slow overhead, but the highest damage single move in the game. That is, if all three ghosts are present. Great if RC'd into 2D or something.

j.HS -- Aerial ghost explosion. GREAT for weird crossups and generally nice damage all around. Knocks down. Crossup suggestions: Jump over, jump back j.HS, run up point blank on oki then super jump forward just as they get up and j.HS in their face, simply jump over while j.HSing, etc. Get creative.

Now you may be wonder what's so special about these normals? Well, first of all, they chain A LOT. With all your P's cancelling into themselves, and the S's chaining into themselves, and the nice damage of HS's, your opponent has something to be scared of.

6P 2S 2S f.S 5HS Ghost Toss. That's it. Vary as you wish-- 5K c.S 2S 5HS Ghost Toss. The weird thing about this is, the ghosts move around depending on what move you use and which ones you cancel-- for instance, 2S 5HS will put 5HS lower than normal. If you then toss after that, the toss starts exactly where the ghost was, and thus is also lower-- so you can hit Zappa's who're trying to be sneaky and run under your 5HS, or Mays spamming 3K in hopes of actually hitting you. Another odd thing is that you can extend their range slightly, for instance 2S 2S f.S/5HS will end up using the second ghost for f.S/5HS, which means it'll be pushed out slightly further than usual, depending on how quickly you cancelled 2S.

Specials

These are pretty damn simple: Ghost toss! 236 any button.

P -- Straight up, and falls down where the opponent is. Great to toss out when an opponent is trying to put pressure on you or going for a counter ( i.e. you think someone's gonna jump in with a big move, you 236P FRC Block LOL as they get hit and get a free combo). Also a nasty oki setup.

K -- Tosses it down and it bounces three times on the ground before stopping. The higher up you are, the higher the bounces are. Using this, if you super jump/double jump and then toss it, it covers a ridiculous amount of screen space pretty effectively.

S -- Tosses it straight. Back in the day, this and HS was all Zappa had for his ghost tosses. Good to use in the aforementioned combo.

HS -- Tosses it in a simple arc. Is good for faking people out who think they can jump over the S. Also amazing for tossing into combos and pressures when you need to delay the hit just a bit to keep them from moving or losing the combo.

D -- Tosses all available ghosts at once. First ghost goes straight, second goes down (k toss), and third goes up (HS toss). If you only have one or two, it will only fire those ones, and you'll still be in recovery for as long as normal. Also another thing to keep in mind, if you're against a wall and fire it, the third ghost will NOT fire. It's too far beyond the boundaries of the wall and will simply 'launch then return' to you immediately, appearing as if it never moved at all. Which it didn't. Can be used effectively if you want to keep a ghost on you.

The items have been covered many times elsewhere, so I won't discuss them unless people ask. The main thing you want to learn is the timing-- while their all random, they all come at an exact interval (about 4 seconds apart) and knowing that can save you from having to FRC a toss, or give you better opportunities to time context sensitive combos/punishes.

The FRC's for these are all simple enough, until you start putting them in combos. The timing suddenly 'feels' much faster, but in actuality, you just have to ignore all visual cues of the ghosts moving at all and simply learn the FRC by muscle memory. If you focus on what's happening too much, you'll never get the combo to work and it'll just slow you down. Definitely practice comboing with the ghosts-- Positioning and area control are definitely their strong points, but the ghosts are nearly as effective as keeping an opponent locked in pressure and combos as the dog is, even if they can't even get close to the same amount of damage.

Zappa loves THE SWORD

The sword is one of the most difficult summons for Zappa to use. Why? Because it's easily his worst summon.

Normals (Changes)

As above, 5P, 2P, and j.P all chain into themselves. But, it's much less useful than with the ghosts. The proration actually hurts the sword, as it needs all it can get just to deal any damage as it is-- and it CAN deal sizeable amounts of damage, but nowhere near what is standard for most other characters.

c.S -- A quick little poke. Good for stuffing throws or other close ranged attacks.

f.S -- A bit more range, but hardly enough to really justify it. Good for combo stuffer, mostly. A little slower than c.S.

2S -- Again, same as the other Slash moves-- short range, fast, but hardly any damage and is best used as combo stuffer.

j.S -- Nice little aerial move. One of the air combo staples for the sword-- j.K j.S jc j.S j.D Sword spin is generally the basic air combo for this.

5HS -- A two hit, long ranged jab. Stabs once, then a second time before returning. Great for pressure and making distance-- two things you don't really need with the sword. You want to actually HIT with the sword, not have it be blocked, and distance just hurts your chances. However, it is spectacular for straight out poking people for pushing buttons.

6HS -- His only overhead other than 5D. Two hits-- First hit is overhead, second is low. If you time it right, you can space it so that it hits the overhead very close to the last active frames for it before switching to low, and hitting the low very shortly after that. Hardly any sort of Eddie unblockable or whatever, and is actually very easily blocked, but chances are you'll get a few people with it. Cancel into sword swipe on block or hit to keep yourself relatively safe/combo.

2HS -- Great GREAT anti-air. The one thing the sword excels at above all other is absolutely punishing anyone who dares get into the air against it. This hits twice and can be utilized effectively on grounded and aerial opponents. After you land a hit or block, always swordswipe, except for the super rare scenarios where their close enough for the DP to hit, or when going into an air combo-- 2HS 9 j.k j.S etc.

j.HS -- A weird little stab. Good for punishing air throw attempts (Jump back and j.HS) but not foolproof. Has an FRC on it for some weird shenanigans if you're ballsy enough. Not really worth the damage for how much tension becomes necessary to do anything substantial with it.

Specials

236S - HS -- The sword slide. This move is very nearly useless on any but the most inexperienced of players. It's a two part move. You do 236S, and if it hits or it's blocked, the sword goes behind them and you can follow up with HS to fish for a counter hit if you think they're going for one-- Except that, for almost every character in the game, there is a method for them to punish you before the HS followup comes out, or even as it's coming out. So doing the followup is almost never necessary. Instead, most people just go for a 2S/6HS/tick throw mindgame setup that's not particularly strong. You can also do j.HS for another overhead option. Again, however, most characters can just hit you before any of these become an option, or through them, or etc. 236S DOES have an FRC, but it's after it connects, which makes the timing near impossible to really nail down. Not even japanese players use it because it's so ridiculous to hit, and the gain you get from it is hardly worth the effort and tension expended. The followup IS guaranteed on counterhit, but that doesn't happen often with this moves hitbox...

63214HS -- One of your main sword moves. Great in combos and out of them, this move takes up a ton of space and nets some pretty sweet rewards-- wallbounce on hit means you can almost always get a combo in the corner, the FRC means following up is easy (and the FRC itself is super easy too, the only sword FRC that is), and the damage is very nice. This move alone nearly makes the sword valuable. Love it.

623HS -- The uppercut/DP. Very nice little move, and one of the only DP's (if not the only one) to have an FRC on it. The FRC is a little tricky-- it changes depending whether you miss, get blocked, hit, or counter hit due to the hitstop-- The FRC is actually just at the end of the active frames. So if you hit earlier, the FRC is pretty much right after it hits. If you landed a counter hit, the FRC isn't there until the enemy starts to move, and if you hit near the end on any hit, it'll be almost immediately after it hits. Learn the FRC, it will save your life. It has a HUGE reach, almost anything above him will be hit for free for a very high distance (no, really, even double jumps won't get over it most of the time). You can also net some good combos off of it, and because of it's FRC, it can fit in specific combos too.

j.236HS -- Sword spin! A fun little move. Has some very select uses-- can sometimes land really weird hits with it if you do 2369HS RC one of the hits j.S/j.HS land -> combo. It hits up to 3 times, but has up to 5 hits/spins (So, after the third hit, you can't hit anymore usually). On block, you always want to RC it. Can be a really strange move to use, but you almost never want to jump in from neutral with it. DP's galore. Best used to end combos.

The sword lags whenever Zappa moves-- not as much as the ghosts, but enough to cause some strange issues if your not used to it.

That's all I've got so far. I'll add Dog stuff later (That'll be a huge section) as well as Raou stuff. Hope you all enjoy!

[Oiboi]

On with the show!

Zappa Loves THE DOG (oh god yes he does)

The Dog. Man's best friend. And best weapon to absolutely devour his foes.

THE NORMALS (FETCH BOY)

The dog removes all of your normal D moves, so no more dust, and no more sweep. You're biggest issue is not being able to land a solid knockdown without sacrificing solid momentum.

5D -- A simple long ranged poke. This will be your main combo stuffer and pressure option. If you're pushback is getting too far to continue hitting, tap 5D then rush in for more.

6D -- This move will be your main option for moving and positioning the dog. If you're mid screen and you need to position the dog, use this to make him move ahead to help trap your opponent. Don't put him into harms way-- wait for your opponent to do something, like jump or run, before applying your own positioning. Big moves like sols 6HS will stop this move, but you can catch unsuspecting fools with it, or bait them into giving you a free summon. But don't do this unless you feel you absolutely have to to get a hit in-- the dog is more powerful with you than it is dead.

If you've got the opponent in the corner but the dog's pushback is beginning to get to the end of 5D's range, do 6D 4D D to replace him in optimal position. This can be tricky to do while your running in to continue pressure, but I'll get into that later.

8D -- A quick little uppercut. Will beat most air moves, and what moves it doesn't, you can always airthrow punish. Great for anyone trying to jump to position/get in on you, and it gives an orb to boot. It's follow up is pretty bad though-- try not to end a combo with it, as it's untech time is severely lessened.

4D + D -- 4D does a short backflip. Very VERY handy if you are being pressured and need to move your dog to a better attacking position. The D followup makes the dog do a slow dive that is an OVERHEAD. Keep that in mind. The follow up version is not an overhead.

2D -- THE BITE. The only guaranteed knockdown move you have, after 6HS got the wallbounce property. Not only that, but it does ridiculous amounts of damage-- if you end a combo with 2HS 2D, it's lights-fucking-out. It also has a deceptively huge hitbox. Sometimes I like to sit on the other side of the screen just doing 2HS and 2D over and over until they try to do a stupid jump in, only to get either completely beat out by the 2D or to hit the dog and get owned by 2HS CH. It's pretty funny how often this works.

So how do you use the dog? A few simple rules to keep in mind:

RULE #1: LEARN HOW LONG YOUR DOGS STARTUPS AND RECOVERIES ARE Oh dear god this is so important, I can't stress how important this is. Knowing innately how long you need to keep the opponent occupied before 2D's hitbox activates is SUPER IMPORTANT. Likewise, knowing how fast you need to hit the opponent after a 5D is very important to not getting a mashed out DP in the face. This is the first thing I ever did with the dog, but back in Slash, it was easier cuz I could just mash the commands without having to worry about accidentally doing a followup. They definitely made the dog better in Accent Core, but it was at the cost of completely excluding crappy Zappa's.

RULE #2: LEARN WHAT MOVES COINCIDE WITH THE DOGS What I mean by this is, what moves share a similar input to using the dog move that you want? This is another thing I picked up almost immediately. The best instances I can suggest are things like doing 2K c.S f.S 5D 66 repeat. You're not tapping anything from c.s to f.s, so nailing that 5D immediately afterwards is super easy. The timing is very strict but it pays off well with a very powerful infinite that deals just crazy damage to most of the cast. You can also do crazy shit like setting the dog up behind the opponent as you're pressuring them, tap 2/5K 2S 2D 2HS--> 2D hits. The 2HS stagger is so great for things like this. Similarly, when your running, you're holding down 6, so just tap D to make your dog run forward while you are. Also keep in mind that inputs are completely independent of what Zappa is doing: while doing a random 5HS overhead in a dog combo, you can tell the dog to do 6D or 8D or anything you want, since that move is not cancellable outside of an FRC/RC. Abuse this so bad, please, just do it! If you're blocking, you can tap 8D between the attacks to get a quick uppercut (doesn't always work, sometimes the dog gets hit or just whiffs, but it's worth a try), or 5D, or 6D. This works so long as you hit 4 before the next attack touches you. KEEP THIS IN MIND: WHATEVER YOU PRESS WITH THE D BUTTON, THE DOG DOES WITHOUT FAIL. The only times he will not be able to do what you command is if you tell him to do 5D or 2D while he's in the air, or if he's already done a followup and is in recovery. Also remember to walk your dog: if he stays neutral for too long, he'll go to sleep, and it takes almost 2 whole seconds for him to respond to commands.

RULE #3: LEARN DOG COMBOS! This is one of the summons where you really need to study up and train really really hard to hit some of the loops. While a lot of the dog is make-it-up-as-you-go-along, it's all based on tested and proven combos that you can use as the basis for all your combos.

For instance, the basic dog loop: In corner, 2K c.S f.S 5D 66 Repeat until dog pushback is too far, 6D>4D D, then resume. Sounds easy, right? Except that you need to hit on the last possible hitstun frame from f.S with 5D. And that is VERY tricky timing, especially while trying to dash in (as a tip, it's just about right before you finish recovering from f.S and are able to move again). Resetting the dog is also pretty difficult, since the input needs to be done very quickly to keep the opponent in hitstun,and also needs to be completed before you can run in and continue the combo. But once you learn this, it will be your go-to combo any time you touch the opponent, and if you master it, can literally win the match.

Free knockdown loop: Anywhere, after a knockdown, you can set the dog up right on top of them and time 2D to hit just as they become vulnerable from wakeup. This works best if you set it up with a f.S (not foolproof) or a crossup j.HS. All this does is keep knocking them down, but it does crazy damage because of 2D's hella beefy damage, and a crossup j.HS will always stuff any superjump attempts, whereas f.S will work on most people who don't know to do a super jump on the first possible frame (the only way to escape the 2D). Timing is variable for each character, which makes it hard, but you can generally just guess the timing and get it anyways due to the limited knowledge of how to escape it.

Blockstring into Infinite: When doing a blockstring, you need to keep in mind that you ARE NOT HITTING THE OPPONENT! This is unacceptable! There are a few ways you can fix this. You can push them into a well timed 2D with Zappa normals to keep them from escaping, you can trap them in the corner and 4D D 6P unblockable them, you can do the above basic loop and toss in a 5HS or 6HS randomly, or you can tick throw them (and if you're hella flashy, even set up a 2D at just the right spot to humiliate them). You can usually do more moves with a blockstring than a combo, so you might need to change your string to something like 6P/5K c.S f.S 5D 6HS/5HS/unblockable attempt/throw attempt, whatever. Just watch for random DP's and dead angles.

Generally speaking, you don't want to knock the opponent into the air. There are only limited combos you can do in the air, and the damage usually sucks. FYI it's usually something like j.K j.S 9D j.K j.S 9D. Pretty lame, but sometimes all you can net or sometimes all you need if someone jumps in.

Watch match vids and combo vids to learn Zappa combos, as well as mixing and matching random shenanigans to see what works best for how you like to play. But it is vital you learn at least one and can do a couple loops into a knockdown. Maybe not repeating the same loop forever (prorations a bitch) but be able to reset damage and keep momentum whenever you lose your combo.

Your biggest strength by far when using the dog is flexibility. You don't need to do an amazing combo every time you hit so long as every time something happens, you are ten steps ahead of your opponent and you're dog is chewing on their health like it's the tastiest fucking meat he's ever had. Learn to be completely fluid with the dog and comboing will come naturally.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Zappa Loves Raou!

Why? Well, because:

1: Raou has the best damage potential of all of Zappa's summons. His biggest downside is that he has little to no mixup potential-- his only ground overhead is 5D, excluding The Dance (which I'll get to later). But Raou isn't about mixup. Raou is about shutting the opponent down completely and entirely. Because Raou's damage is so high, and his chip damage modifiers are so common, his real game is completely destroying the opponent who turtles.

2: Raou is intimidating. Generally speaking, by the time you get Raou, you're opponent is going to be pretty low on health. This is going to make them worried-- even if they had full health, Raou can kill most characters in a single combo if you have full tension, off of nearly any random hit. But if their health is low, that means you can kill them just by smashing on their block until the chip damage kills them. This is how Raou works. If they do something stupid and get caught by a Darkness Anthem or an Edguy, they lose. But if they just turtle and block and try to wait, you can just smash them until they die, or throw them and trick them on wakeup.

So, that about narrows it down: With Raou, your entire game revolves around keeping your opponent too scared to do anything. This isn't as easy as it sounds-- a lot of people are more than willing to be aggressive, and even more are knowledgeable about how to fight Raou. Generally speaking, Raou is advantageous against many different characters, but there are a few you need to worry about: Ky is one of them, because his range and priority can compete with Raou, and a well timed CSE can nullify your Darkness Anthem and punish you for tossing it out like an idiot. Slayer is also very dangerous, as a great deal of his attacks can and will clash or flat out beat out a lot of Raou's moves. Dizzy can be even more dangerous, for the same reasons as she normally is for Zappa-- but if you got Raou vs Dizzy, chances are that she's not coming back from that one anyways. Sol's 2D can go under Edguy and get a free punish, but that's about his only saving grace vs Raou. Any character with good pokes or projectiles can be tricky to fight as well (Axl, Venom, Buri), because Raou normally doesn't have a hitbox, but he does get one once you use a move that involves him.

With all that said, on to the moves and how you should use them.

Moves:

First off, I want to make it clear that a lot of Raou's moves are pretty versatile. There are a lot of unique tricks and things you can abuse with them, so I'll try to list as many uses as I can with them. Aside from what I list here, there are a LOT of things you can do with these, despite their perceived limitations.

6P -- This doesn't really change, but I want to point out that it's use changes wildly here. First of all, this is a good tool to fool enemies into attacking, since you have to get closer to use it than Raou moves. Once they realize how close you are, they will either turtle the fuck up (which is what we want), attack (which will USUALLY miss, since they will probably try to attack Raou, and not you), or go for a throw/jump--We don't want them to throw or jump, so it's good to toss a Darkness Anthem to make them stay put. That will also make them do something stupid after the DA, which can sometimes give you a free hit.

c.S -- A quick little slap with Raou's big ass fist. Really, the best use for this is combo stuffer, often from a close 2S. Will sometimes work well if the opponent got up in your grill, or is waking up and you wanna mess with them a bit. Really, it's just a larger c.S. Will often catch people who try to jump away.

f.S -- A much bigger slap with Raou's fist. Will always chain into 6HS, and from there you can do a DA toss. Like c.S, will often catch people who try to jump, but it's main use is just to keep the enemy from getting away and extending blockstuns.

2S -- A Very VERY fast low jab with a great amount of range on it. This is your go to poke. You will initiate most pressure situations with this, and it has a lot of versatility in terms of what you can do after it, i.e. c.S/f.S, 2HS, etc.

j.S -- Basically like 2S, but in the air. Good for a relatively quick overhead smack on taller characters (jump and hit S as fast as possible). Also great for jumping in, often from f.S, you can jump in, j.S j.HS 2S/2HS is both a good blockstring and combo.

5HS -- Quite the useful attack, this one. Great deceptive range, combo potential on some characters at certain pacing (5HS DA -> combo), and works many distances. Pretty fast startup for what it is.

6HS -- The meaty Raou fist! Don't use this outside of combos. You can use it in blockstrings, but it's risky. The groundslide on hit is of course perfect for his basic Raou combo. There's really not much you can't do with this move.

2HS -- I have no idea why, but so many people fall for this. It's a slow low hitting 'uppercut' (no invulnerability, but it does have a weird motion), but so many people fall for this. Shonen lost to this move last SBO, when chonari used Respect then cancelled into 2HS. So basically, greatest move ever?

j.HS -- A big meaty slap. Massive floorbounce on air hit. One really fun combo you can do with this is to do j.HS after a 5D and just basketball their ass over and over.

5D -- 22 frames long, +4 on block. It is indeed pretty subtle because it only has a few independent frames going on. Your only ground tensionless overhead, so learn to love it.

2D -- Same 2D as usual.

j.D -- Same j.D as usual.

236S-P/K/S -- Darkness Anthem. This is Raou's projectile. It is awesome. At close range, you can use the charge portion of the attack (236S) for 2 hits. This is important: IF YOU DO NOT TOSS IT, YOU HAVE LOTS OF FRAME ADVANTAGE!!! Three hits total, 2 for the charge, one for the toss. All of them have increased chip damage modifiers, which means this move alone will crank the guard bar like mad, so abuse the fuck out of it. Once the enemies guard bar is flashing, any hit you use will damage them, so as well as keeping your opponent locked down, you can use it for big damage even on block. P goes straight, K goes low (This is VERY GOOD at catching people on wakeup-- this is because it stays on top of their hitbox longer than with any of the other tosses, and will often touch their back foot if they're not blocking), and S goes High (good if you use the others a lot and your opponent tries to jump in on you every time from then on).

214S -- LAST EDGUY. AKA The biggest fuckoff uppercut in any fighting game ever. Only has 7 frames of full invulnerability, but it has attack frames from frame 1, and reaches full extension at 14 (full extension will hit anyone above it in that range except for maybe Chipp whose triple jumped...). This means, you can input this and as soon as you hit that S, it'll come out. Which means, basically: one frame counterhits. Wait for your opponent to do something than slam them with this. Don't be stupid with it, of course-- it's a DP, and as far as DP's go, this has a massive recovery of nearly 80 frames if you whiff. Even on block, they still have tons of time to mess you up. Comboing with this is essential for big damage: combo into close to corner 6HS Edguy RC Edguy DA 6HS/Edguy, repeat until out of tension, then just do the basic Raou combo = BIG DAMAGE. You can also Edguy RC j.HS for crazy damage.

632146HS -- BELLOWS MALLICE. Big fuckoff hammer projectiles super. Awesome for cranking bar in one go, and if the enemy is out of tension/doesn't faultless, this can take off nearly 100 damage in one go. Do it twice and even if they FD both, they'll be out of tension and you'll still have Raou to ruin their day. Be careful during startup, as you're vulnerable. Can also be used in combos very easily (aka just hit it and it'll work).

I'll write up stuff about the Dance later, as it's a pretty unique move.

[Oiboi]

Zappa Loves: THE DANCE

So, what is the dance? Well, it's Zappa's forcebreak. That means it costs 25% tension to use. It's also an overhead, and probably the fastest in the game with only 16 frames startup. It also gives an orb on hit.

It's also your cheapest unsummon option, which makes it a fantastic move for resetting bad situations.

How to use the Dance

First off, this move is fantastic in blockstrings. While the flash and the noise of a forcebreak is warning for the opponent, the speed is so fast that if you're clever with it, you can land the overhead hit many, many times before the opponent learns.

Secondly, this move is good in combos too, especially when you want to lose a specific summon and try for another. Reasons why you want to switch include not having the dog or being in a poor matchup for a specific summon (i.e. ghosts vs Dizzy, sword vs Aba, etc.).

Ghosts: 6P/5K c.Sx2 Unsummon

Sword: c.S f.S 5HS unsummon

Dog: Don't get rid of the dog. Just don't. If you really want to, you can turn any random dog combo into an unsummon attempt and resummon for raou.

Raou: Raou also is a poor choice to get rid of, but he does have bad matchups, i.e. vs Ky. Same with Dog, just get rid of him if you really feel the need to.

Third, the move has no invulnerability which is weird for a zappa move. Don't use it in an attempt to stuff things-- you won't win. It may sometimes hit really deep aerial opponents but that's about it.

Fourth, you can do summon-unsummon-summon combos with it. If you somehow manage to land a counterhit, it floorbounces so you get a free summon combo. Example combo: 6P/5K 2D Summon Unsummon Summon RC Summon. Be creative!

[AlmightyGnat]

Excellent job. Thank you, sir.

also.. wtf at 5hs having 2 FRC's.

[Oiboi]

Excellent job. Thank you, sir.

also.. wtf at 5hs having 2 FRC's.

The reason is because in Slash, getting that FRC was WTF hard. Because the move only hits three times but actually has 6 'hits', it all depends on where the move actually connects on the opponent-- so back in slash, you could get thrown before you could ever actually FRC, which was the entire purpose of having it was to avoid that situation. So they have the first one, and then the second one, seperated by a 'hit'/spin. One of the few actually competent Zappa changes, honestly. A lot of the other ones seem confusing lol.

[Undying]

Ok, my old advanced thread was super unorganized and I've learned a great deal since then, so I figured now, with the newer Zappa's popping up, it'd be a perfect time to start this over...

Very informative read, oi! Zappa seems to have several great normal moves and crazy shenanigans associated with some of them. I had no idea that 5HS could be FRC'd twice or the lower-body invuln in 5K and 5D, as obvious as the latter seemed; should definitely come in handy for a Slide Head-spamming Pot or against sweep-type moves. 6P is also an interesting move, but I haven't found much use for it myself, as the only action I get on AC+ is against the CPU (Gold HOS can kiss my ass:mad:).

The very first time I picked up Zappa, I thought 5S was a command special and always used to wonder why I always got a random ghost out of nowhere at times. It wasn't until I tried doing a 236+P (naked) that things really started to pick up, and the rest, as they say, "was history". Getting Raoh out for the first time was also a memorable moment, as was beating the living daylights out of May with Last Edguy:MA:. I am still trying to teach the Dog some new tricks, as it's sometimes confusing to keep both Zappa and the Dog together - occasionally, I will burst on accident from this:sweat:.

Of all the summons, I find the Triplets to be the most useful in situations. As mentioned, they can link the S normals together along with Zappa's punches, and the explosions have a good amount of application. Tossing ghosts is also great for pressuring the opponent and stopping rush/jump-ins if timed right. I also like the sword, it has great pokes and decent priority over several other moves, but I definitely feel the damage on it to be quite low. If someone is turtling, I tend to toss out a "Looks Painful..." to close the distance, but try not to get too predictable with it, "...and is!" also tends to catch some players off-guard though:keke:. Dog has the most potential, but I've yet to fully master it and keep it in play long enough to do something nasty.

I only discovered FRC a couple of days ago and it really allows me to do some insane things with the characters - instant Raoh from FRC'ing summons is pretty much the best thing ever in a fighting game to date, IMO.

Is there much use for "Etiquette" (Zappa's Unsummon Force Break 214+D)? In X2 and #R, I would have to either get hit by my opponent or use "It's Alive!" (Zappa's Overdrive) to get rid of the current ghost (in order to summon Raoh), so I found it to be very useful in those cases. I'm just wondering if there's any other practical use for it.

Also, what's up with Zappa's standing hitbox? Considering his stance and how it moves, I would imagine that it has some weird properties as well. Zappa's run is also pretty cool, seeing how it could run under certain attacks - does it have any other tricks behind it? Aside from the obvious like moves and color palettes, what are the biggest differences between X2 or #Reload Zappa and Accent Core Zappa (I haven't played Slash)?

Patiently awaiting part two!

[AlmightyGnat]

what are the biggest differences between X2 or #Reload Zappa and Accent Core Zappa (I haven't played Slash)?

Patiently awaiting part two!

Seeing as the only practice I get at this game is on #Reload, unless I go to the arcade, I'll try to throw out the things that I've noticed at least.

The dog can only do one attack at a time.

You only have the S and HS ghost-throw.

Sword jHS has no FRC in #Reload.

The spit puddle doesn't hit.

I'm sure there's a ton more, I just don't know everything off the top of my head.

[Zoogstin]

Make sure that when you get to the dog you strongly emphasize that it is the most broken thing in the game. Because.... well... it is...

[faultydefense]

Make sure that when you get to the dog you strongly emphasize that it is the most broken thing in the game. Because.... well... it is...

OMG I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS SO?!

[Oiboi]

The dog isn't so bad, guys. I mean, you get no guaranteed reversal options, if you wake up with the dog, it's a very slim chance he'll do anything great for you in that situation, and your opponent can exploit the fact they can cancel moves that are wasted on hitting the dog, which can turn you into a damn fool for trying to summon punish without thinking. I'd say the fact that Slayer gets even crazier abare and damage so much more reliably than Zappa is enough to argue that the Dog isn't the most broken thing in the game. Show me a Zappa player who gets the dog whenever he wants it and always wins with it and never ever loses and I'll change my mind.

BTW yes I added the dog section. But I am tired and I got homework to do now. Heh. College.

[faultydefense]

The dog isn't so bad, guys. I mean, you get no guaranteed reversal options, if you wake up with the dog, it's a very slim chance he'll do anything great for you in that situation, and your opponent can exploit the fact they can cancel moves that are wasted on hitting the dog

what? getting the dog on wake-up is why he's broken. What you're telling me though is that if the opponent notices he can cancel moves into nothing allowing zappa to get away for free, start pressure/throw, w/e he wants...and if he happens to guess right once he punishes you for being hasty. But you on the other hand can use any dog attack without putting yourself at any risk, if it eats one of his moves you're probably at an advantage. Let alone if you've actually taught your opponent to be afraid of the getting hit by the dog like he should be, he'll either clam up, run away, or risk it all on the one mix-up he may get before the dog hits him. (and wtf is with CHing the dog and being stuck while zappa runs in and does whatever he wants)

i can get knockdown on zappa, go in for pressure, but if he wakes up with dog all of a sudden i'm the one eating a blockstring...lol wut? that is ridiculous and completely uncalled for. The fact that its random is a saving grace, it doesn't keep it from being retarded. Slayer at least has to make a commitment to do any of his options. The dog actually gives zappa an advantage when being pressured. A better argument: can you tell me that zappa wouldn't be broken if he always had the dog.

try playing against zappa on a character that feeds off momentum like venom, i-no, or order sol. Once he starts getting multiple random wake-ups into dog a couple times in a row completely destroying your main source of damage, you'll see what I mean

btw, i do agree with a lot of what you said in your guide, and i definately learned some things

but dog is bullshit

[Oiboi]

Look at it this way.

9 times out of 10, you will be facing someone who knows how to oki. If they oki properly, dog is useless on wakeup-- Sure, maybe AFTER they start pressure and you block the oki, it may be good. But if you get mixed up, try for a wakeup summon, do a super-- the dog is worthless. Yeah, it gives Zappa an option to escape pressure-- just like Baiken can, and Baiken's counters are more solid than the dog in this situation (as many characters can just bait the attack and cancel into a DP to beat the inevitable summon attempt).

While the dogs biggest strength is flexibility, it's biggest weakness is predictability. Because it's one of his only summons that has legitimately solid stuff, players are wanton to continue doing only what they know works, and eventually, people pick up and start punishing the fuck out of it. It's the same issue with Eddie, except Eddie's bullshit is entirely inescapable-- even the dogs 2D on oki is possible to escape with a well timed super, DP, super jump, backdash, etc. It seems that a lot of people get a high opinion of the dog, but when they see it as a beast of a summon, they ignore it's weaknesses because they think it's too strong.

Even assuming you were random as hell while using the dog, the biggest weakness it has is vulnerability. Sol's Volcanic Viper only needs one frame to come out, and both you and the dog are instantly owned in the face. Ky can do ride the lightning and invul through a blockstring. ABA can do a well timed FB Danzai (though if you know what your doing and bait it, you can punish it pretty spectacularly-- but usually it just beats the bejeezus out of you and the dog). Jam can command jump FRC punish, puffball dodge, etc. etc. etc. I could go on all night. It's just a complicated situation because of how complex it is to control Zappa and the Dog at the same time, a possibly more complex situation than Eddie and Little Eddie. I say this because Little Eddie is a simple matter-of-fact about Eddie's playstyle-- once you learn the timing tricks it's very simple after that. For Zappa, you have to adapt on the fly to everything that is happening at once, and in GG, that can be really really difficult to do. Eddie's kind of "Learn one combo, repeat until win". Zappa and Dog are "Oh god he's going further away than I thought he would, gotta <insert ten commands in three seconds here>."

If that makes sense. I have played a few other Zappa's, and the main thing I think people need to realize is that Zappa is NOT as scary as he seems. He doesn't have the damage, he doesn't have the reversal power, he doesn't have the defense, and only a few key moves make him hard to hit. The idea is to turn his strength against him and pull out deadly DP's/supers/etc. whenever you get the one frame to execute it in a blockstring. That's all it takes to completely shut down Zappa's momentum-- and let's not fool ourselves, Zappa is very momentum dependent, especially with the dog.

[faultydefense]

9/10 wake-up summon/reversal super = your a newb...I honestly don't believe you're doing wakeup summon/reversal super 9/10, so don't take that as an insult.

you have continued to put out all the highest risk/reward options for everyone including zappa

you're the only one i know that seems to think if you attack with dog you should follow it up with a summon...i know you probably didn't mean it that way, but everytime you've mentioned something to that effect you act as if zappa also has to put himself at risk...no that would make the dog perfectly fine

THE ABSOLUTE BEST THING A ZAPPA CAN DO WITH THE DOG OUT IS - block...

he can attack, while blocking, he can attack while moving backwards, jumping, moving forward, standing still...ALL WITHOUT EXPOSING HIMSELF TO ANY RISK

baiken has better options ? no she doesn't, all of hers come with risk, at the very least u gotta frc one. Zappa....just...has to block. If you're able to block A SINGLE MOVE, you can have the dog attack them wether or not they did something cancellable and it won't put zappa in any risk. So all this danzai, VV, ride the lightning stuff...thats all punishable with your very best combo. But dog attack? HAHAHA, I don't know why you feel the need to put yourself at risk with the dog out. Don't you also realize that all those things you mentioned that beat a dog meaty also lose to zappa just blocking and punishing?

It's biggest weakness is predictabilty? That just means you're being predictable. I seriuosly think you just need to block more with the dog and watch as people string themselves out trying to kill the summon. Don't you realize that even if the dog lands one hit or even a trade, odds are it put you in a favorable position or at the very least netted you damage WITHOUT ANY RISK. Also, I'm sorry, but little eddie is harder to control than the dog. And I have practiced both eddie triple unblockable set-ups and dog infinites, and you'll be doing all the same adapting controlling little eddie, he's just harder to keep alive, but covers more of the screen.

in zappa vs zappa, do you really think you can say anything about brokenness in a mirror match?

as for baiken you can also cancel into dp to stuff her dead angles

By attacking a zappa who woke up with a dog the opponent is putting themselves at risk while the zappa just continues to play as normal (ie blocking...what should be expected of anyone who undergoes oki...you also made it sound like "people who know proper oki" dont understand that if one of their moves gets blocked (which believe it or not actually happens to people with good oki) the dog can hit them and if they were to cancel into VV or whatever they might kill the dog and then eat a zappa combo) You mentioned how they punish stuff they see a lot. None of the dogs moves are punishable, period <- thats again why its broken

zappa aint broke, he only gets dog some of the times and its random

if every time he got the summon it was a dog, he would be broke (yes/no)?

btw, zappa is also not a momentum based character as he can begin his best game off of random hits/summons/pokes, and will then lose that entire game when touched once... <- thats about as definitively not momentum based as a guilty gear character can get

[Oiboi]

I said 9 out of 10 times you're going to be fighting someone who knows how to OKI. In other words, a mixup Slayer oki, Eddie unblockable oki, Millia disc-tickthrow-overhead mixup shenanigans, sol gunflame pressure (with possible wild throw), Ky's CSE, HOS's 236P, Testaments shenanigans, Roboky's rockets, etc. I could go on all night. These are all things you have to block as Zappa-- not even you're super will help most of the time (though a good backdash against Slayer often works wonders). If you block wrong, you get hit = dog was useless. If you block, it may be a while before dog even becomes an option, in the event that you're blocking a multi-hit move like CSE, because if you tell the dog to activate during it, he'll just die for nothing. And often times, Ky can take advantage of this weakness.

You seem to be thinking that every time I use the dog while blocking, I'm fishing for it to get hit and I'll summon. That's not what I do-- but it's what happens often. A lot of simple blockstrings in GG will kill the dog before it hits, and you either have to try for a summon or keep blocking. This is all assuming post-oki pressure. If you get pushed away from your dog or it otherwise ends up behind the opponent, yes, of course it's completely different. Except that when you press in a direction, you aren't blocking. Your opponent can read that and try to hit you with something they don't usually use in their string and punish you for trying to control the dog. I have had this happen. By several really good players. It's usually a really fast FB or tick throw or something, but that's all it takes. You also have to realize the dog has startup, so they can just block then instantly punish you when you try to keep the pressure on. If it's not airtight, and this is the hardest time to get airtight pressure, they'll win.

A lot of the time you will hit people with random dog pokes and uppercuts in the middle of blockstrings. But you won't get anything off of it, because several counter hit effects for the dog knocks down. The best you can hope for after that is a good placement for oki. I'm not saying the dog sucks on block, I'm saying you need to be aware of what can stop it.

[faultydefense]

I said 9 out of 10 times you're going to be fighting someone who knows how to OKI. In other words, a mixup Slayer oki, Eddie unblockable oki, Millia disc-tickthrow-overhead mixup shenanigans, sol gunflame pressure (with possible wild throw), Ky's CSE, HOS's 236P, Testaments shenanigans, Roboky's rockets, etc. I could go on all night. These are all things you have to block as Zappa Most of these options except for S tier, also put the person doing the oki at risk because if blocked they can get hit by dog. Do you not understand that this is what's so crazy and broken? The person who got their oki is in danger...-- not even you're super will help most of the time (though a good backdash against Slayer often works wonders). If you block wrong, you get hit = dog was useless. If you block, it may be a while before dog even becomes an option, in the event that you're blocking a multi-hit move like CSE, because if you tell the dog to activate during it, he'll just die for nothing. And often times, Ky can take advantage of this weakness. That's not a weakness it just means you have to block a few more frames LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE GAME

You seem to be thinking that every time I use the dog while blocking, I'm fishing for it to get hit and I'll summon. That's not what I do-- but it's what happens often. A lot of simple blockstrings in GG will kill the dog before it hits, and you either have to try for a summon or keep blocking. This is all assuming post-oki pressure. If you get pushed away from your dog or it otherwise ends up behind the opponent, yes, of course it's completely different. Except that when you press in a direction, you aren't blocking. Your opponent can read that and try to hit you with something they don't usually use in their stringThat's why blocking is so fricken amazing with zappa. You can wait to be put in blockstun and then do the necessary motions for the dog. Baiken has to stick her own neck out on the line to do the same thing. Zappa just sacs a dog at worst. Dog died? WAAAAH you just might get a new one. and punish you for trying to control the dog. I have had this happen. By several really good players. It's usually a really fast FB or tick throw or something, but that's all it takes. You also have to realize the dog has startup, so they can just block then instantly punish you when you try to keep the pressure on. If it's not airtight, and this is the hardest time to get airtight pressure, they'll win.This isn't a punish, this is them baiting dog attack, and using instant blocks/reversals...they shouldnt have to bait attacks while you're blocking though...

A lot of the time you will hit people with random dog pokes and uppercuts in the middle of blockstrings. But you won't get anything off of it you just hit them with random dog pokes, get a new summon and go to town, because several counter hit effects for the dog knocks down. The best you can hope for after that is a good placement for oki. I'm not saying the dog sucks on block, I'm saying you need to be aware of what can stop it.And you're forgetting all the things it beats...like pressure...

maybe what i should be saying is "blocking + dog = broken"

[Oiboi]

Shouldn't have to bait attacks while blocking? You're acting like this is a new thing for GG. Every character can use dead angles, Baiken has counters, Bridget has the yoyo, Testament has trees and webs, etc. etc. Come on man, you're making it to be completely broken when I keep telling you dozens of ways to beat it. It's not foolproof. It's strong, yeah, hell yeah. But it's not the most ungodly broken mechanic in the game, not by a long shot.

[faultydefense]

Shouldn't have to bait attacks while blocking? You're acting like this is a new thing for GG. Every character can use dead angles, Baiken has counters, Bridget has the yoyo, Testament has trees and webs, etc. etc. Come on man, you're making it to be completely broken when I keep telling you dozens of ways to beat it. It's not foolproof. It's strong, yeah, hell yeah. But it's not the most ungodly broken mechanic in the game, not by a long shot.

if you counted everyone of your dogs attacks while blocking, and then counted them all as 50% tension worth of dead angles that don't prorate or ever put you in a non-blocking state. Then maybe the math would show you. The only thing i consider as messed up are glitches and maybe triple unblockables. You bait a dead angle to continue pressure, also if its baited you get to combo them. But if you bait a dog attack you get to eat pressure, grats...So zappa gets a free dead angle PLUS every time he wakes up with dog. But don't worry, everyone else can do it for 50% and risk. Bridgets yoyo has to be set before you block, same for testament, baiken is the only comparison, but thats the way her character was designed, not to mention she's more of a fairy and puts exposes herself to counter hit every time she does it. Come on man, you're making it sound like a single one of the options you mentioned was as good as dog. Despite the dozens of things it loses to, what about the hundreds of things it beats. For example, if you're inbetween the dog and zappa...that happens to be every move in the game.

[Oiboi]

Really? That beats invulnerable moves? Gee, now I've seen the light!

Let me explain it this way.

In the Jojo's fighting game for the dreamcast, there was a character called Petshop. Petshop was the most broken piece of shit of all time, as he could hit you once then run away for the rest of the round and win by default-- and even when he didn't do this, he could simply mash for free infinites. That is broken. There was absolutely no possible way to defeat a petshop.

Now, let's look at GG. You are describing the dog as Petshop-- Virtually unbeatable simply on principle of the dog's mechanics. He can attack while Zappa blocks, after all!

Except it doesn't really work that way. You have to LET Zappa get the dog in the position he wants, you have to give him the time to perform a dog move, you have to make the mistake of getting mindgamed. That is the reality of the situation. If Zappa wakes up with the dog midscreen, you can easily force Zappa to be pushed so far away from the dog that it becomes useless. Or you can throw him, or mixup him as Oki. But most efficiently, you can watch him and wait for him to move-- Him, not the dog. And then you can use an invulnerable move and beat him right out, or throw him, or hell, any multitude of uses.

The dog isn't a catch all, it doesn't just WIN. Just because it gives the option to attack while blocking is not gamebreaking at ALL. Like I said, it's a very strong option, but what happens if you 1 frame jump FD the uppercut? You get frame advantage, you can execute a DP/Super the moment you land, and the Zappa will either lose the dog and/or get hit.

I'm not saying it isn't a very powerful tool for Zappa. There's a reason people say the Dog is probably better than even Raou. But there is no possible way that it is so powerful that it causes the game to become so imbalanced, even if you got only the dog as the summon. Eddie's pressure and combos and unblockables are even stronger than Zappa and the Dogs, and he's not broken. He's hella strong, definitely-- but broken? No. The Dog is slower, does less damage, has far less unblockable options, his infinite is so much more timing strict, and if you fuck up your inputs even once, you and the dog become very vulnerable.

So, bottom line: No. The Dog is NOT broken. If he was, Zappa'd be soft-banned. And he's not. So learn to fight it instead of trying to convince me it is broken, because that's not going to get us anywhere without empirical proof.

[faultydefense]

i did everything i could to not let the zappa get anything. I got knockdown and a damaging combo, as well as running out all his bar. But whats this? he woke up with dog which all of a sudden made my frame traps work in reverse and put me in danger of counterhit instead of him. I wonder how I let him do that...

if zappa wakes up with the dog midscreen are you actually gonna be able to continue pushing him all the way out of reach of a diving dog without him doing anything about it? Like dog

throw or mix-up is the same as it is on everyone else. You'd resort to it more though because blocking is so good for zappa.

"but what happens if you 1 frame jump FD the uppercut? You get frame advantage" = actually no you dont, zappa is actually still perfectly safe and if you punish the dog your putting yourself at risk while he can still sit still or attack without letting go of block...also he has frame advantage because you blocked silly

The reason dog doesn't break the game is because getting hit once resets summon (made doubly noticeable in this fast paced game) and the summons are random meaning you can't base certain strategies on getting specific summons. If you could actually plan reversal dog shit that'd just be silly.

The dog is not slower, the dog does fine damage, has perfectly good unblockable options (lol...bad unblockables...), and if you fuck up your inputs once, your dog gets hit, you have to fuck it up twice a lot of the time for zappa to also get hurt :p. Whereas if anyone in the game fucks up their input once they become very vulnerable (lol, was that really your argument?)

At least eddie has to actually do something to induce the unblockables and such. Zappa, by chance, can just get it for getting hit.

[faultydefense]

if you don't believe me, get someone who's pretty good, near your level. He doesn't even have to play zappa. But go fight him in training mode for a while and have his summon set to always be dog. Once he figures out how it works I'd like to see you try pressure after a while. counter counter counter counter

[Zoogstin]

All I'm saying is that when the dog is on the screen Zappa is borderline S-tier. Obviously not unbeatable by any means, but there are times when the dog comes out of no where when I'm under pressure and because of that I can turn the tide around and win. I have to admit, I sometimes feel guilty. But then I feel awesome because I can use it well.

[Oiboi]

Yeah, the only point I'm trying to get across is that it isn't broken. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant to this thread anyways.

[qwerty]

yo boi we cool and all but i gotta lay down a small bit of real talk for ya

your neutral game with the dog is weak, which is why you probably don't see things the way me and faulty do. often times when we play, you'll get the dog at midscreen, and you'll usually just let me kill it because you don't space it right.

once you've got someone in the corner though, you don't let go and that's what it's all about nah mean? but for real man you gotta watch more chonari, that nigga shows where it's at with doggy.

regarding wakeup with dog, shit like reversals are un-fucking-necessary when you have what is effectively an alpha counter free of commitment.

[4r5]

no prenup or anything!

[Oiboi]

yo boi we cool and all but i gotta lay down a small bit of real talk for ya

your neutral game with the dog is weak, which is why you probably don't see things the way me and faulty do. often times when we play, you'll get the dog at midscreen, and you'll usually just let me kill it because you don't space it right.

once you've got someone in the corner though, you don't let go and that's what it's all about nah mean? but for real man you gotta watch more chonari, that nigga shows where it's at with doggy.

regarding wakeup with dog, shit like reversals are un-fucking-necessary when you have what is effectively an alpha counter free of commitment.

Well, DAWG, if'n you had my pad done I'd be able to practice, now wouldn't I?

I'll get Raou up sometime this week. New quarter of classes starting up so things are gonna be a little messy for me for the next couple days.