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OrionXElite

[CS1] Makoto vs. Tager

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So as a Tager main since CT, I figured I'd make this for those who have less Tager knowledge. This is the ultimate powerhouse match right here, The grappler with a 6k command Super versus the squirrel with 6k combos anywhere... already see this going to shit for Tager:vbang:

PROS:

Makoto has more damaging combos by a long shot as her normals have amazing proration which can lead to easy 6-7k combos anywhere. Tager only lands about 2.5-4k combos anywhere.

Makoto gains heat MUCH faster due to her newly developed parry loop where full loop combos build ~60 meter which means they can ALWAYS end in Supers for BIG damage. Tager gets a meager 20-30 per combo.

CONS:

Tager has the ultimate answer for Makoto's intense mixup as if the yomi level is high, Tager can counter her every option. Collider or 2C beats 214B/C and If he catches you right, he could literally 360B you right of 214A if you're too close.

Tager can outrange her pretty easily with 5C and 5D. j.D will be very hard to counter as Makoto's 6A is a very hard AA to land properly. Although I haven't tried it yet, I'm like 75% sure Makoto's j.B would beat out Tager's j.2C. Will test later if no one else confirms.

Tager has 10 guard primers and Makoto has no real good primer breaking moves which means that Tager can literally turtle ALL DAY if he so chooses. Guard Bonus anyone??

OVERALL:

This is shifty matchup that relies heavily on momentum. Whoever hits hard first is gonna be having the upper hand. Magnetism will greatly affect the matchup either as AC would beat all her jump ins easily. As of now though, I will put this as 5.5-4.5 Makoto. Tager needs to be sharp as hell to keep up with her mixups but if he does, he has the upper hand.

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Tager could get ranged by 236A~D[3] easily, but she would have to watch out for Spark Bolt. 236A close isn't a good idea either, but you could also lay them down and wait what he does with it. If he sledges and you're close, you can parry him or go for a level 3 attack, or jump in with j. 5CC and do a combo. If 236A~D hits, you can go on the offensive. Parry might be probably the best thing in this matchup since you can anticipate his moves.

Tager can't really get a change to Voltic Charge in this match either, because Makoto can do a 3C or a 2C combo, or a counter anything combo to 4-5k. :psyduck: If Makoto is magnetised, there could be some issues. I think if she 214B/Cs, she could still attack Tager, but wouldn't really do anything.

360A/B could be problems since our pressure game isn't full developed yet, but 214A close does let you catch him, but 214A~C beats him and 214A~B dodges it all together.

If he blocks 5CC, it can be dealt with many ways. If you think he'll 360, do a DP. You can alternatively escape with 214C or 214B, but be careful of Atomic Collider.

Also, Makoto's j.b will beat Tager's j.2C, however, you can also clash with it.

e. also don't random 5D/2D, he'll punish you, or worse 720. if you think he'll do both, you could j.D.

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CONS:

Tager has the ultimate answer for Makoto's intense mixup as if the yomi level is high, Tager can counter her every option. Collider or 2C beats 214B/C and If he catches you right, he could literally 360B you right of 214A if you're too close.

This isn't really a "problem", since this is very common vs Tager anyways, i.e. Tager trying to guess and punish. There's a 50% chance Tager is gonna eat it.

Tager can outrange her pretty easily with 5C and 5D. j.D will be very hard to counter as Makoto's 6A is a very hard AA to land properly. Although I haven't tried it yet, I'm like 75% sure Makoto's j.B would beat out Tager's j.2C. Will test later if no one else confirms.

If you're quick to react you can punish almost any move Tager does with Big Bang Smash and while Tager has range, he is also very slow. She has moves she can punish his 5C and 5D with, even a bunch of normals like 3C should work.

Tager's j.D can be countered with an attack with a low hitbox (maybe even 2D? haven't tried that yet) or her Corona Upper. Gonna experiment more on these counters when I get home.

Tager has 10 guard primers and Makoto has no real good primer breaking moves which means that Tager can literally turtle ALL DAY if he so chooses. Guard Bonus anyone??

No one will guard crush Tager in CS, you're just supposed to cross and mix him up. If the Tager player can't IB->Punish you're gonna have a field day.

OVERALL:

This is shifty matchup that relies heavily on momentum. Whoever hits hard first is gonna be having the upper hand. Magnetism will greatly affect the matchup either as AC would beat all her jump ins easily. As of now though, I will put this as 5.5-4.5 Makoto. Tager needs to be sharp as hell to keep up with her mixups but if he does, he has the upper hand.

Sounds like every Tager matchup.

But I'm gonna experiment with this matchup when I get back-

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After a little experimenting I came to the conclusion that your safest bet is to just block if Tager does a j.D and you're in the air, if you're close you might wanna do a j.623C.

On the ground I find Makoto's 2D to be much better at punishing certain air attacks, like Tager's j.D, then Makoto's 6A. Since on CH at Lv2 you get the same bounce as a gold burst and a Lv3 you get a Fatal CH, it's also easy to land. His j.B should be punished with 6A, though.

Tager's 5C and 5d have an annoying range to be sure, and neither Asteroid Vision, Comet Cannon nor 3C are "good" options. Instead I found that Makoto's Lv3 5D is one of her best bets. Even at Lv3 the move is too fast for Tager to be able to react and punish (altough TG's 5C and MK's 5D can trade, but you get a Fatal CH an he doesn't), on block he can't punish you due to block-stun and pushback. Not an amazing option, but the best i.m.o. in the poking game vs Tager.

And it really doesn't matter much i.m.o. if the Tager player is sharp, since Makoto is mostly too fast to be able to react and punish, so it's down to a guessing game. If Tager guesses right you can eat maybe 3k on average tops, but if he guesses wrong he can eat +4k.

But again, gonna playtest and experiment some more.

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3CC under j.D

:kitty:

Personally I like Lv2 2D (if you catch them in a CH), you can literally do whatever you want, you can even run up and just do Particle Flare for some lazy damage as he comes down.

edit: for that matter, 3C goes under and hits tager during 5D. and if you do it before or at the same time, 5C

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er, can tager special cancel 5D/5C into 360 on a whiff?

i was testing it and if you start at the same time you'll hit them as long as there's not a cancel i'm not aware of

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er, can tager special cancel 5D/5C into 360 on a whiff?

i was testing it and if you start at the same time you'll hit them as long as there's not a cancel i'm not aware of

If you use 3C on reaction to TG's 5C/5D then he will whiff but also recover and be able to land a 360 before your 3C attack hits.

Doing the moves at the same time means you're doing 3C at random, not on reaction. At random 3C can get punished and that isn't exactly ideal.

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You can hit with 3C after 5D has started up

Yes, if you do her 3C early. Which you only do if you try to be psychic, do it at random or you know it's coming (like if you recorded it in Training).

Normally you don't do something so unsafe at random or try to be psychic with it.

If you use 3C it should be used as a punishment for him doing a 5C or 5D, which doesn't work since you have to see the 5C/5D startup and if you input 3C it will be too late and he can catch you in a 360. Her double spin on the ground is more than enough time for him to react and do a 360 (or even a 720!). That's a good punishment... for Tager, not Makoto :8/:

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Just to be clear, if Tager guesses right on a 214B/C and does Collider, He can get 4k. Same with his FC 2C. Also not to mention if he has meter when gets Collider or 2C on you, odds are he'll put you in the corner and you eat 6k with a reset. So you actually can't walk all over him AS much as one might think.

Also to be clear, Tager can in fact be guard crushed. Its the main tactic of a strong Lambda player to zone him out and guard crush him as it gets him impatient and antsy and he'll start to mess up. Not to mention Arakune can guard crush easily while Tager is cursed. Its rare for there to be a reason to turtle so much but in this case it may actually be a good thing.

So it requires Tager to be even more patient than he needs to be when on defense but honestly, on offence he could actually afford to get a little ballsy. Oh and to whoever asked, 5C/5D cannot be special cancelled on whiff. I have a feeling that in most cases, its best to just be on the safe side and parry the obvious holes like his 5C>5D

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Yes, if you do her 3C early. Which you only do if you try to be psychic, do it at random or you know it's coming (like if you recorded it in Training).

Normally you don't do something so unsafe at random or try to be psychic with it.

If you use 3C it should be used as a punishment for him doing a 5C or 5D, which doesn't work since you have to see the 5C/5D startup and if you input 3C it will be too late and he can catch you in a 360. Her double spin on the ground is more than enough time for him to react and do a 360 (or even a 720!). That's a good punishment... for Tager, not Makoto :8/:

i said you can do it, not that you should do it

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Three notes:

1) You can parry Tager's Spark Bolt. It will still magnetize Makoto, but you won't take Guard Primer damage.

2) You can Corona Upper through Tager's Spark Bolt, but Corona Upper must be used at the very last moment before impact (obviously not recommend for laggy netplay)

3) Makoto's 3C can go under Tager's Spark Bolt.

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Something else I found out:

Please use Makoto's Planet Crusher in a combo if your planning to end the match in an Astral Finish against Tager.

If not, Tager can punish you with a reversal A version Tager Buster and make you extremely sad.

EDIT : Crap, sorry for the double post, just realized it :(

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also had some nice matches against a few good tagers, heres what i got out of it:

working with aerials is allways good, most tagers arent fast enough with atomic collider or backdash. if you do it to often it can be to your advantage.

if magnetized(pretty much unavoidable i fear) 3C is pretty damn good. dash into 3C will mostly provoke 5Ds and go straigt under them. same goes for spark bolt.

if hes got full magnet gauge keep away and dash at him right into 3C, havent fought a tager it didnt work against.

vmoet canon for oki is also good, even if it cant prevent 360s it keeps him occupied or makes him tech forward or back and you can apply mixup. just stay out of his 360 range.

even dash ins with 2A worked for me guess it depends on the reaction time of your OP

oh yea and dash>BBS also catches many counter attempts

edit2: and also when tager goes for that elbow drop you can try to 3C under him to cross up, since the kick will change directions when you switch sides

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Not sure anyone else has figured this out yet but there's a little loop you can do against Tager if hes standing. ... 5cc > jump > c > delay > c > land > 5cc.. rinse and repeat. I've gotten it up to 17 hits for around 3.7k or so. You can also parry cancel 5cc's into another 5cc.. and another for the lawls while still being able to continue the loop. Works anywhere on screen.

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This match-up feels a lot like tsubaki or noel against tager due to makoto having to get in Tager's face to do anything, never a good idea against grapplers, but feels different from those two because makoto is actually a good character. This match-up is even, not in Tager's advantage. It's all about who adapts to their opponent the fastest by making the most correct guesses.

Against 360A happy Tagers, try ending an unsafe normal on block/IB with a Big Bang Smash frame trap to condition them not to. 214C > j2C counterhit will punish it as well, but carries more risk if they guess correctly and hit you with a 2C fatal counter instead. 214A is not a safe option for reseting pressure at all here. Parry is very good for IB punishing Tager's unsafe blockstrings. His 5D while magnetized can be pretty scary but 3C on prediction into 5k+ quickly conditions him to stop.

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I seriously think this match up is in your favor...

unless you guys can say otherwise.

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I dunno Axis, I say it's even. We may have the damage and corner pressure, but you have to just IB our terribly predictable blockstrings and 360/720 us to death.

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tbh id also say in Makotos favor. I mean you dont have to pressure Tager and if you do, you can go for her safe blockstrings and dash out or try traps with astral vision>j2C(which is nice close up, since you cant be 2C FCed or collidered) or stuff like that.

Noel cant do taht either right?

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IB 360ing her shit goes right next to theory talk.

but if thats the case she would be at a disadvantage...had it not been for parry loop.

also having a jump cancelble 5B and a faster 5B would do shit for you, the only thing we have to look for at that point is you jumping near us so we can collect our 2C FC.

makoto's strengh is corner, not her mix up, not her pressure but when she gets you in the corner it feels like ass, in neutral she doesn't do much to tager...whats she gonna do force him to block a projectile...LOL what tager does that.

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j7C (not j2C) is the same as Litchi's j7B. Really amazing after Gadget Finger post mix up.

Magna Tech Wheel beats it clean. AC will actually get hit out before active. 2C will get counter hit before he gets his swing out. 360/720 whiff, for obvious reason. 6A(?) beats it (invincible frames).

When parry disappears, realize solid jCC will still do a job on Tager.

Overall I say this is 6-4 Tager. 360A and its immunity frames make this fight really hard. If you can bait Sledges with 236A at a decent distance and follow up with a good punish, go for it. 3C predicts will make Tagers pay, but good Tagers will not be gunslinging Sparks and 5Ds. Good Tagers will be glad to waltz up close, then work a throw/poke mix up. In the end, there's more for Mak to lose on a bad guess, and it's easier for Mak to guess wrong. If the Tager relies on Sledges, this should be a lot easier, because IB sledge, and punish. And for Mak to be effective, Mak needs to be in Tager's happy range, which immediately takes out one of the problems Tagers have in pretty much all their other match ups. Plus a majority of Tager's pokes outrange Mak's pokes.

That is how I feel at the very least, based on what I've seen and done. It's not bad for Mak, but it's not easy.

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