[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[dioxideUniversa]

HOW CAN PEOPLE WHO PLAYED HAKUMEN IN EVERY VERSION NOT LIKE CP HAKUMEN.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Because they don't like clutch victories with OD?

[dioxideUniversa]

i'd not exactly call it clutch when it's so easy and i don't think his decriers would call it clutch, either

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm pretty disappointed with CP Hakumen myself. It's like they explicitly designed him to be as unfun as possible... At least, that's how I feel until I blow their face off with a 9k combo. I hate how most of his tool changes range from "okay I guess" to "Jesus what the fuck were they thinking." He feels really bland.

I just like playing characters that hurt like fuck--if he couldn't do that I would have already swapped to Kagura or Azrael.

I actaully enjoy playing Terumi and Ky from GG more than Hakumen at this point.

Blade and Skeletal Minion, I agree 100%.

Also I'd discourage using 3C for frame traps after 2A. It's -12 without IB. If they block it you are gauranteed to get bodied. It's better to use at max range during footsies.

Surprised you agreed, and one should NEVER use 3c against Kokonoe, her 3c can punish it for free no matter how she blocks it.

I kind of felt the same way to be honest. Picking up Azrael was a breath of fresh air and meant I could focus on something else until I was ready to pick up Hakumen again and I am defiantly having fun with him now.

Maybe you should try messing with one of the newer characters? Shit, maybe a character you wanted to play in extend but you never got the chance to. I personally wanna re-learn Valk and maybe Bang at somepoint, so if I ever feel like I hit a wall with Hakumen again, I know I have alternatives.

I'm sorry if this post is hot garbage, I'm just giving a little bit of friendly cheer because I think you're a pretty cool dude yo! (though everyone here is <3)

Your post isn't stupid, subs are the best way to make a game fresh and fun. Which is why I've been playing Terumi since I got the game. It'd probably main him if he wasn't so evil, had a lack lustre midscreen pressure game, and his counter super caught all physical attacks.

HOW CAN PEOPLE WHO PLAYED HAKUMEN IN EVERY VERSION NOT LIKE CP HAKUMEN.

I'm curious what your thoughts on CP hakumen are, care to share?

Because they don't like clutch victories with OD?

Play a good Kokonoe, Valkenhayn, or Relius and get back to me on that. Landing 7.5k is fun, my problem is that he has to rely on those gimmicky OD opportunities to win more or less. The less likely he is to get those opportunities, the more he struggles.

Don't get me wrong I'll still play him, and I don't want to discourage newer players from playing him. I just don't enjoy playing HIM, but the game overall is very fun. He's just really a lopsided one trick pony character at the moment. Unless Spark or any high level Japanese player can show me some amazing gameplay that shows me otherwise. But at this moment this is how I feel, but I own the game and want to continue to help the Hakumen forums proper for newer players.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Oh no, I definitely agree with you on that. Without his OD, he struggles a lot more. I was just saying that he's so reliant on it that if you can't pull it off, he becomes...what's the word, simpler to play?

[mAc Chaos]

Surprised you agreed, and one should NEVER use 3c against Kokonoe, her 3c can punish it for free no matter how she blocks it.

I'm surprised you're surprised. How come?

Also the change that you and others are touching on is basically that he lost a lot of his freedom. He is still good, but good in a very narrow, restricted sense. Before you had room for creativity and he was versatile enough to let you choose if you wanted to be a zoner, rushdown, that kind of thing. Now you are pretty much funneled down one path. Compare his reliance on OD and such with Mu, who can set up steins 1000 different ways, for instance.

I actually made a chart last night to show dioxide what I meant. This is completely random and made on the fly so the values aren't supposed to be accurate so much as to show the gist of it:

In EX the values would have been more balanced across the board.

Anyway, I'm not trying to stop anyone from having fun with him. If you are starting Hakumen in CP and this is what you know, then you can have fun with this style. But the reason players who used Hakumen for a long time are dissatisfied is because we experienced the other ways he could be played. And there is also the fact that his primary style before was mainly defensive, which is another turnaround.

For now it's just a matter of accepting his current style as a given and doing what you can with it.

[OmnixTSC]

Honestly, maybe it's just the way that I play Hakumen that makes me feel differently about this. I don't feel like he's completely one dimensional at this point, nor do I feel like he's lost a lot of freedom. I do agree with you guys on his intended playstyle in CP being more skewed towards big damage, but I don't think that's all he has. Honestly, I win a lot more games without OD finishes or big OD combos than I do with them. I generally just outplay my opponent or make a lot of good reads without having to fall back on OD at the drop of a dime.

As far as neutral goes, I still think his neutral is efficient. It's still hindered by his slow movement speed and floaty nature, but I think it can still be strong. Another thing that I've gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't do as much of before (which is strange b/c he was better at this in CSE) is limiting my opponents options at every point possible. I tend to OS or safe jump a lot of stuff now to get past a lot of options that characters have, with the latter being a little harder to make use of b/c of the change in the speed of the game.

Oh, and the drive nerfs/buffs don't really matter to me b/c I barely used his drive in earlier versions compared to now...ha...haha...

[dioxideUniversa]

I'm curious what your thoughts on CP hakumen are, care to share?

i don't have much of an opinion because i have not been playing a lot. my stance would just be skewed by the fact that i haven't spent a lot of time with him

i do have an opinion about this whiny attitude some other players seem to have that they are allowed to dislike CP hakumen but players who have been maining hakumen are not allowed to dislike him, as if the only thing that fucking factors into your enjoyment of a character is how OPed he is

[OmnixTSC]

i do have an opinion about this whiny attitude other players seem have that they are allowed to dislike CP hakumen but players who have been maining hakumen are not allowed to dislike him, as if the only thing that fucking factors into your enjoyment of a character is how OPed he is

I don't think anyone has really brought up anything along those lines. There's veteran Hakumen players that fall on both sides of the spectrum: ones that enjoy CP Haku and those that don't. I fall in line with the former, even though I've been playing Haku since CT. Maybe it's just b/c I didn't like CSE as a whole, but I honestly didn't enjoy playing Hakumen all that much in CSE. Then again, I didn't enjoy playing anyone in CSE, so...yeah.

[Moblin]

It definitely helps if you find the character of hakumen himself appealing rather than any gameplay mechanic he might have, since that almost always changes from version to version. I personally miss the defensive way to play hakumen from the past --> blocking like a boss, becoming an impenetrable shield that fucks you up when he finally feels like it. However, I still have lot of fun with him in this version as well.

[dioxideUniversa]

I don't think anyone has really brought up anything along those lines. There's veteran Hakumen players that fall on both sides of the spectrum: ones that enjoy CP Haku and those that don't. I fall in line with the former, even though I've been playing Haku since CT. Maybe it's just b/c I didn't like CSE as a whole, but I honestly didn't enjoy playing Hakumen all that much in CSE. Then again, I didn't enjoy playing anyone in CSE, so...yeah.

i'm referencing stuff that's happened outside the forums mostly, but it isn't exactly invisible here either

my point was people are allowed to have an opinion about things and some people have been exceedingly intrusive about that

[Wander]

With the nerfs to 6D and hotaru, I dont think you would want to be in a defensive position much now. Agito is good for getting in so we can be more offensive now.

I think players just missed the overall damage haku had in EX. Damage in CP is really on CH 6B, 3C and OD and you need to put Zan in the combo to get damage.

I think it all comes down to if you like OD, imo OD is not one dimensional. There are so many uses for OD besides the Airthrow>OD.

Confirm a CH j.c into OD wave for the kill, activate OD after a 5a in the loop combo to get enough stars for shippu kill, activate it off a punish so you can actually get the stars to punish when you have no stars.

My favorite is just to use it as early as possible against other defensive/spacing heavy players. It may seem like a waste but there are times i can OD/burst 4 times in a whole match since those matches are so drawn out.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm surprised you're surprised. How come?

You've always been the offensive Hakumen player, so I thought you'd like the name changes, especially Agito.

Also the change that you and others are touching on is basically that he lost a lot of his freedom. He is still good, but good in a very narrow, restricted sense. Before you had room for creativity and he was versatile enough to let you choose if you wanted to be a zoner, rushdown, that kind of thing. Now you are pretty much funneled down one path. Compare his reliance on OD and such with Mu, who can set up steins 1000 different ways, for instance.

I actually made a chart last night to show dioxide what I meant. This is completely random and made on the fly so the values aren't supposed to be accurate so much as to show the gist of it:

http://images.sanctuary-inc.net/hakuchart.png

In EX the values would have been more balanced across the board.

Anyway, I'm not trying to stop anyone from having fun with him. If you are starting Hakumen in CP and this is what you know, then you can have fun with this style. But the reason players who used Hakumen for a long time are dissatisfied is because we experienced the other ways he could be played. And there is also the fact that his primary style before was mainly defensive, which is another turnaround.

For now it's just a matter of accepting his current style as a given and doing what you can with it.

This pretty much sums it up for me, which is why I'm forcing myself to like him. It's a huge irritant when my characters average neutral must be relied on against characters who have much better neutral games, and inevitably get in on my and I don't have the adequate defensive tools to ward them off. Characters can literally go to town on him because ALL of his defensive options are so gimped and can only really win decisively through a gimmicky flow-chart playstyle.

I do praise them for his new combo routes, albeit they need to be more fleshed out. I learned them in a few days, but what's sad is that 85% of Hakumen's real combos are based on how you can ODC and do OD combos and fit in as many shippus as possible in the corner. Which is not what OD was intended for. But his combos, though, limited allow for a bit more creativity and also simplicity at the same time.

Honestly, maybe it's just the way that I play Hakumen that makes me feel differently about this. I don't feel like he's completely one dimensional at this point, nor do I feel like he's lost a lot of freedom. I do agree with you guys on his intended playstyle in CP being more skewed towards big damage, but I don't think that's all he has. Honestly, I win a lot more games without OD finishes or big OD combos than I do with them. I generally just outplay my opponent or make a lot of good reads without having to fall back on OD at the drop of a dime.

As far as neutral goes, I still think his neutral is efficient. It's still hindered by his slow movement speed and floaty nature, but I think it can still be strong. Another thing that I've gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't do as much of before (which is strange b/c he was better at this in CSE) is limiting my opponents options at every point possible. I tend to OS or safe jump a lot of stuff now to get past a lot of options that characters have, with the latter being a little harder to make use of b/c of the change in the speed of the game.

Oh, and the drive nerfs/buffs don't really matter to me b/c I barely used his drive in earlier versions compared to now...ha...haha...

I've grown mostly disenfranchised playing against good players using stronger cast members.

i do have an opinion about this whiny attitude some other players seem to have that they are allowed to dislike CP hakumen but players who have been maining hakumen are not allowed to dislike him, as if the only thing that fucking factors into your enjoyment of a character is how OPed he is

I agree with this, and it hasn't taken long to realize how there are MUCH stronger characters than Hakumen in the cast.

It definitely helps if you find the character of hakumen himself appealing rather than any gameplay mechanic he might have, since that almost always changes from version to version. I personally miss the defensive way to play hakumen from the past --> blocking like a boss, becoming an impenetrable shield that fucks you up when he finally feels like it. However, I still have lot of fun with him in this version as well.

If he wasn't this badass Samurai advocate of justice/virtue/bushido, I'd have stopped playing him by now.

i'm referencing stuff that's happened outside the forums mostly, but it isn't exactly invisible here either

my point was people are allowed to have an opinion about things and some people have been exceedingly intrusive about that

Very true. #FuckRelius #FuckKokonoe #BuffValkenhayn2014

EDIT:

With the nerfs to 6D and hotaru, I dont think you would want to be in a defensive position much now. Agito is good for getting in so we can be more offensive now.

I think players just missed the overall damage haku had in EX. Damage in CP is really on CH 6B, 3C and OD and you need to put Zan in the combo to get damage.

I think it all comes down to if you like OD, imo OD is not one dimensional. There are so many uses for OD besides the Airthrow>OD.

Confirm a CH j.c into OD wave for the kill, activate OD after a 5a in the loop combo to get enough stars for shippu kill, activate it off a punish so you can actually get the stars to punish when you have no stars.

My favorite is just to use it as early as possible against other defensive/spacing heavy players. It may seem like a waste but there are times i can OD/burst 4 times in a whole match since those matches are so drawn out.

If you think it's about missing "CSEX damage" then you're missing the point of what I or anyone else has been saying. Not trying to be mean or anything.

[toanenadiz]

With the nerfs to 6D and hotaru, I dont think you would want to be in a defensive position much now. Agito is good for getting in so we can be more offensive now.

I think players just missed the overall damage haku had in EX. Damage in CP is really on CH 6B, 3C and OD and you need to put Zan in the combo to get damage.

I think it all comes down to if you like OD, imo OD is not one dimensional. There are so many uses for OD besides the Airthrow>OD.

Confirm a CH j.c into OD wave for the kill, activate OD after a 5a in the loop combo to get enough stars for shippu kill, activate it off a punish so you can actually get the stars to punish when you have no stars.

My favorite is just to use it as early as possible against other defensive/spacing heavy players. It may seem like a waste but there are times i can OD/burst 4 times in a whole match since those matches are so drawn out.

I don't think I've told you how much I hate it when you do that.

[Raziul]

Confirm a CH j.c into OD wave

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the idea!

[Wander]

Whats great is that you could also combo from it, its my favorite combo in CP.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I'll admit, I do miss our defensive options. There was no satisfactory feeling than 6Ding through someone's pressure and blowing their shit up, so with our only decent reversal tools costing 50 meter, it just makes me really hesitant to use them. I just got over my Yukikaze spam, I'd rather not go back into it.

[Kriegdrache]

But, Yukikaze spam is the BEST spam!

I do miss 6D a hell of a lot though. When I first tried it for myself, I wept for about 45 minutes. I love D > Shippu though, that's always fun, especially near corner.

[Sophisticat]

I do NOT like CP Hakumen in any way whatsoever. I'm literally forcing myself to play him at this point.

I don't think I'm at this point right now, but I can say CP Haku is my least favorite iteration. Even CSII Haku had more freedom despite being gimped. :/

Hey Blade, before you say you don't like Hakumen in this version you should start by showing up to meetups and tournaments and, you know, actually try out the character against strong opponents

Désolé Kirby, mais je suis d'accord avec Eb. CP Haku est trop one-trick pony pour être le fun.

But I know what you're saying. You need to show up moar, Eb! xD

[Skeletal Minion]

I wouldn't say he's as devoid of enjoyment as CS2 Hakumen. I hated basically everything about that version.

[Koopa_Klawz]

I found it ironic since I was ass with CS1 Hakumen but then by CS2 I was starting to do better.

[mAc Chaos]

VERSION WARS

CT Hakumen 2 good

I actually liked CS2 Hakumen. Although it is all kind of getting hazy. But I remember the main issue he had was no midscreen ability so you spent all your stars to get them in the corner, but you needed the stars for the corner combos.

Still, he had solid normals and hit like a truck in the corner, and 6D was lol since it did no damage but was still 1f.

ALSO: did everybody start picking colors yet? Mine was easy as usual. Or do you have a favorite color from the other games?

[Koopa_Klawz]

I actually like his 16th color the most.

[mAc Chaos]

Which one is that.

[Koopa_Klawz]

http://kurushii.tv/Dustloop/BBCP/Graphics/Hakumen/BBCP_Hakumen_Palettes_7-16.png

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