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Sophisticat

[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

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Oh, I was reading it wrong. I thought 2d (catch) and 2d (attack) meant the regular and enma variants, after the counter was activated. Instead of claiming it's confusing to read, I think it is much more likely that I just had too many beers today.

I suppose if the opponent was good at it, they could block the countering of a projectile on purpose, and be able to meaty you as you come out of the animation of the counter or setup some other kind of mix-up.

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Yeah, it's for stuff like Rachel's frog.

Of course, there's nothing to stop you from countering again. :eng101:

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What other option is there after whiffing a counter, except to counter again to catch the counter punish in case it's mistimed? :yaaay:

and then you 2d twice in a row while they walk up and grab you

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I'm trying to procrastinate and not study for my natural science exam, so I made some more GIFs.

p8t4.gif

56i.gif

63f.gif

ryb.gif

f2g.gif

Sorry if I posted any of these before already.

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Is 2A > (Slight Delay) 2B > 3C a true meaty backdash OS? I've been fooling around with it, but I'm not entirely sure if it's real now. I delay the 2B up until the last few frames of 2A so that if 2A is blocked, I get a blockstring into 2B. If 2A whiffs, the 2B is skipped and I go right into 3C to catch backdashes.

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That would be amazing if it was. I've been having a lot of trouble with backdashing but I can't test it out for myself until later this week.

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In the corner 2A whiff > 2B should work. It has 6 active frames so it'll catch most back dashes. The 2A catches forward rolls though you don't have a lot of time to combo into 5A.

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That would be amazing if it was. I've been having a lot of trouble with backdashing but I can't test it out for myself until later this week.

I'll test it out a bit more...tomorrow I guess to test if it's real. I just haven't been able to determine if I'm subconsciously delaying my inputs after 2A or if this actually works as an OS.

In the corner 2A whiff > 2B should work. It has 6 active frames so it'll catch most back dashes. The 2A catches forward rolls though you don't have a lot of time to combo into 5A.

Ah, okay. I'll try this one out for the time being. I do like the like the idea behind 2A > 2B > 3C, so I'll keep practicing with it to see whether or not it's consistent at midscreen.

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Mid screen after a 3C knockdown it's pretty much impossible to stop a back roll without hard calling it out. If you use something to keep them from forward rolling through you like a 2A you don't recover in time to stop a back roll.

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Mid screen after a 3C knockdown it's pretty much impossible to stop a back roll without hard calling it out. If you use something to keep them from forward rolling through you like a 2A you don't recover in time to stop a back roll.

That makes sense. I wasn't really sure of my options (as I usually just relied on hard call outs to begin with), so I can see how this might not work out as well as I originally thought it would. Is there a way to deal with back rolls after an Agito ender at normal jump height?

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Falling j.2C > 3C if they don't emergency tech. After 3C if you see them emergency tech you can do a dashing 2B to meaty, if they don't emergency tech the 3C you can walk forward for about ~4 frames and then do 2A/2B to catch forward rolls/quick get ups and still have enough time to meaty if they neutral tech. But if they choose to back roll there's nothing you can do short of doing 5C after 3C, but even that will lose to a late back roll.

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I don't think I've actually used the enma followup in a game before. I just dont feel very comfortable with it. I always just let it rock and shippu if i can afford the stars.

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I was like that for a while too, and about 90% of the hakus I fight online never use the followup either. To get past it you have to actively train yourself to do it. Record a training dummy to use 5b or something, then time a counter to catch it. When you hit D, immediately after hit and hold A. It should be like a footstep heel-to-toe. Ba-dum. D --> A.

Do this every time you counter now. Never just hit D. Then just learn what moves/characters that it's NOT good to hold A against. Much easier that way imo.

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So a goldmine of new Hakumen vids just hit Jourdal's channel. I'd like to talk about some of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvJtW9qgSvM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYMx1iyfUU4

These matches between Chibaken and Noel/Hazama give me some really cool ideas. A few notes:

1. 5c > Gurren, 6a reset shenanigans in the corner. Will work on anyone once. Probably not after that. Unfortunately, Chibaken tries it 20 times.

2. Does anyone know why he ends his air combos with j.B, j.A > Agito instead of the usual j.2C > Agito? Usually did it in the corner.

3. 2C seems to be used a lot to prevent jump outs and looks surprisingly hard to punish on whiff if used correctly. Also saw other hakumens using this, but the ability to anticipate the situations where it is useful remains elusive to me.

4. The use of 5c in pressure is really interesting. It's -3 on block so it shouldn't really be used, but Chiba is conditioning his opponents to respecting it by special cancelling it like 50% of the time. Still not sure if it's that great of a thing to do. It seems kind of gimmicky. He does get a lot of damage off of it though.

5. The ability to convert any 2a CH or small hit into 2b > gurren is impeccable and something I should work on

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He looks like quite a solid and clever player. There's some dropped loops but whatever.

As you said, good use of 2A and 2B into gurren. Lot's of stuff to steal and learn!

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1. 5c > Gurren, 6a reset shenanigans in the corner. Will work on anyone once. Probably not after that. Unfortunately, Chibaken tries it 20 times.

2. Does anyone know why he ends his air combos with j.B, j.A > Agito instead of the usual j.2C > Agito? Usually did it in the corner.

3. 2C seems to be used a lot to prevent jump outs and looks surprisingly hard to punish on whiff if used correctly. Also saw other hakumens using this, but the ability to anticipate the situations where it is useful remains elusive to me.

4. The use of 5c in pressure is really interesting. It's -3 on block so it shouldn't really be used, but Chiba is conditioning his opponents to respecting it by special cancelling it like 50% of the time. Still not sure if it's that great of a thing to do. It seems kind of gimmicky. He does get a lot of damage off of it though.

5. The ability to convert any 2a CH or small hit into 2b > gurren is impeccable and something I should work on

1) I thought it was pretty funny how often he went for 5C > Gurren , 6A. It's an interesting idea when it's not overused.

2) I'll test this out in a bit. I'm curious myself.

3) 2C, like you assumed, is used to prevent movement. It forces you to deal with Haku's close-range pressure as you're forced to land if you blocked it while airborne, while you can just cancel it if they block it on the ground.

4) 5C is okay in pressure once you do what Chiba does (ala conditioning). It's useful when you space 5C properly to avoid getting punished, as you can still confirm well off of it at max range.

5) I prefer to just confirm into Enma most of the time when I'm not going for a 3C ender. It isn't hard and it usually saves meter. I really don't think the Renka follow-ups are that useful at this point. I find myself barely using Renka now :/

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Oops, I meant to say Enma, not Gurren. :vbang: For 2 stars, it's just so efficient to confirm into enma for almost 2k, corner carry, and knockdown instead of whatever > 3c.

I, too, am sad about Renka's inefficiency as a combo move. I use renka after a 2c on hit sometimes to catch their jump. I also use it for a really specific mixup I like to condition my opponents to blocking. But other than that it is largely unused.

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Pretty much all of Hakumen's pressure is conditioning. Not exactly a huge knock on 5C.

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Oops, I meant to say Enma, not Gurren. :vbang: For 2 stars, it's just so efficient to confirm into enma for almost 2k, corner carry, and knockdown instead of whatever > 3c.

It's okay, because I thought you meant Renka instead of Gurren (since that's what Chiba was doing most of the time) :vbang:

I actually like the Gurren confirms, you can get some solid damage off of them while being meter efficient. There's also silly SMP resets if you want to go for those.

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I, too, am sad about Renka's inefficiency as a combo move. I use renka after a 2c on hit sometimes to catch their jump. I also use it for a really specific mixup I like to condition my opponents to blocking. But other than that it is largely unused.

Renka has better combo scaling than Enma though. So during OD combos you'll end up doing more damage during similar combo routes, and it also guarantees that CT will be within range after Zantetsu (1). Also this is just an execution thing for me but I find it a bit awkward to confirm 2B > enma, and find it easier to go 2B > renka. For an extra star I can get more damage with the renka route and similar meter gain. Though if you're able to easily confirm 2B > enma then Renka is only useful in the corners really.

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