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Kjorteo

Punishing trips/sweeps

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Okay, I have just about had it with my roommate. He is an unmitigated TRIP WHORE. And the thing that frustrates me the most is that he abuses his 2D on everyone he plays so much that it's extremely predictable, yet I even when I see it coming from miles away, I just don't know what the answer happens to be. I feel so stupid when he trips me, trips me again on my wake up, trips me like that about five times in a row, and then hits me with a standing dust when I start blocking low. A standing dust. That's just shameful. :gonk:

But anyway, my retarded lack of reflexes aside, I do end up blocking his 2Ds a lot just because there are so damn many of them, and I figure there must be a good punishing option in there somewhere. In fact, according to the frame data, there's time for Millia's 2K just after blocking the 2D of pretty much everyone he plays, and it should hit everyone except Bridget, and 2K gatlings nicely into things (2K-2H, right? I know what to do after landing a 2H....) I'd like some confirmation on that from you guys, though. You block a 2D from one of these characters. Since my reflexes suck, let's just go ahead and say normal block, not IB or SB or anything. Anyway, you block a 2D. Now what?

His characters: :JA::DI::BA::BR::AB::TE:

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Just block, seriously. Block low as you wake up, and if a trip doesn't come immediately you can probably just shift to a high block (or better yet, backdash) since it sounds like your roommate is pretty predictable with these things. You can also FD jump to escape - just block low just as you're getting up, then perform 2147+PK to jump off the ground instantly while flashing FD. Also.. a standalone 2D doesn't lead to anything, so it shouldn't really make a huge difference whether you get hit or not. You would have to eat like 20 of them to die. While every time you land a hit, you should be able to force a mixup (if he blocks) or combo into basic ADC stuff for 30% damage / knockdown. If you can't do this just yet, hit training mode over and over while watching match vids for a visual example of what you should generally be doing in neutral situations. Also, 2K-2H gatlings, but does not combo. You have to go through a 5S or 2S first (eg. 2K-5S-2H).

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Well, I'm not trying to preemptively punish the 2D. I learned my lesson about that a long time ago, especially against freaking Jam. I'm asking if there's time to throw some sort of punish in after blocking it, before he can do anything again. He just trips so damn often that I would really like to be able to make him pay for it. Block a trip --> 2K-2S-2H --> Air combo would make me so happy, you have no idea.

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Huh? I wasn't implying that you were trying to / should preemptively punish 2D, I was just saying that a 2D as oki is very, very weak and can simply be blocked or escaped very easily. As for outright punishing a blocked 2D, it's not really possible against most characters. What you DO get every time though, is frame advantage that you can spend to either position yourself, escape any further pressure, or move in for a mixup. This can all be done by blocking for the first few frames of wakeup, then doing either a Backdash, or FD Jump to escape. And if you can't block 5D on reaction, this has the added bonus of getting you out of any rudimentary 2D/5D mixup that Jam may be trying. And if you choose to just block the 2D - which you should, most of the time - you can forward dash or IAD in (have Pin ready) since you are able to act before Jam. However note that Jam has many outs from a 2D, she can just jump-cancel away (or towards) you if you block it. If she lets it recover, you won't be close enough to connect with anything meaningful, so use the opportunity to move in. If she JCs forward, just AA her with 5P, 6P-2H, or j.K, if she jumps anywhere else, either reposition yourself for a mixup or go for the AA.

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depending on the character you're fighting against, you should have pokes that beats out his 2d. If you're always getting hit by it, you should really look more deeply into your defense and positioning, and also how you initiate an offense. For example, if all you do is dash straight in, then get hit by it, try to get in from the air instead. Or dash break and punish the wiff poke. And no, i don't think you can punish a blocked 2d, and in any case, most 2d can be cancelled into a special or a jump...

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Millia doesn't really specialize in beating out other characters' grounded moves (generally), so outpoking is usually out of the question. Also, risk/reward is usually not in your favour when you try to beat out moves since Millia can be so much more effective when advancing from the air. The only realistic way for Millia to beat stuff like a 2D is with her own 2D (outside of enemy's range) or with a point-blank low attack that goes active before the enemy's attack does. The first option is decent and especially good to use when you don't have Pin, the second isn't really advised at all since you don't get anything off of it and it is far too risky. I guess you could 6K over a 2D too, but again that's just not safe at all.

If you're always getting hit by it, you should really look more deeply into your defense and positioning, and also how you initiate an offense. For example, if all you do is dash straight in, then get hit by it, try to get in from the air instead. Or dash break and punish the wiff poke.

This is exactly right. If you sense a poke coming, just jump and react to if it comes out (free mixup if it does), if it doesn't then you can AD back or use Pin and mixup from there.

Or you can use dash breaking: dash in, then stop (FD) just out of range of the poke you're expecting, then dash back in after it whiffs. Once you're in their face, a 2K/throw mixup can be effective to score decent damage and knockdown, or you can just throw them outright if their whiffed poke has enough recovery.

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Jam sweep? Block low. She can't do anything remotely interesting from it without taking a huge risk.

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I know that Millia's air approach is something to be feared, but unfortunately, you may notice Dizzy included in the list of my roommate's characters. Dizzy's AA keepaway seems to beat me every time--5S (5 hits) --> Ice spike alone sends me right back where I started with significantly less health for having tried, and that's assuming she was generous enough to not already have a fish and one of those floating ice sickle things in the air waiting to go before I start. Which is usually not the case. I've complained about this before in #R, and the situation hasn't really improved in AC (the ability to hold and delay the air ice sickle thing really isn't helping) but that could just be me sucking. :(

Anyway, back to the main subject at hand,

This is exactly right. If you sense a poke coming, just jump and react to if it comes out (free mixup if it does), if it doesn't then you can AD back or use Pin and mixup from there.

Could you please define or give examples for what's good mixup after successfully jumping over a poke? And shall I assume this is on the way up from your jump? From my experience, waiting until the maximum height to notice I can attack gives them plenty of time to recover and block whatever I try on the way back down.

depending on the character you're fighting against, you should have pokes that beats out his 2d.

I'm not positive this is the best idea to try against Jam, no matter who I'm playing. :(Maybe Anji could be a smartass and throw something with low autoguard, but I've historically been very bad at timing that.

If you're always getting hit by it, you should really look more deeply into your defense and positioning, and also how you initiate an offense. For example, if all you do is dash straight in, then get hit by it, try to get in from the air instead. Or dash break and punish the wiff poke.

Actually, this is kind of embarrassing, but he's mostly exploiting a problem I have blocking low in general. I seem to have this weird instinct to move the stick toward 4 when I'm in the middle of a long enough block string, so if he just pokes me enough times and then trips he usually gets it. And in the heat of the moment, when I have less than a second to say "Oh, crap, incoming attack, need to block now," I'm absolutely terrible at finding 1 instead of accidentally moving the stick more toward 4 or 2. So that's definitely just me sucking, and yes, I am trying to work on that. :v:

And no, i don't think you can punish a blocked 2d, and in any case, most 2d can be cancelled into a special or a jump...

Damn. I was really hoping that if I found an option to make him pay dearly for having tried to trip me, he'd get wise and try it less. :(

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I know that Millia's air approach is something to be feared, but unfortunately, you may notice Dizzy included in the list of my roommate's characters. Dizzy's AA keepaway seems to beat me every time--5S (5 hits) --> Ice spike alone sends me right back where I started with significantly less health for having tried, and that's assuming she was generous enough to not already have a fish and one of those floating ice sickle things in the air waiting to go before I start. Which is usually not the case.

To easily get around Dizzy's AA (which isn't too great), you just need to use the Pin to make your opponent wary of trying to AA you. A simple way to do this against AA-happy players is to IAD in as if you're going to attack, then throw the Pin just before you land. This should CH and stagger them, and you can follow up with your double AD -> j.S -> land 5S-2H, aircombo. If you're finding it a bit hard to time AD j.S -> land 5S, you can try using AD j.K-P-K land 5S-2H, or just land from your CH Pin and do 5S-2H.

To get rid of fish that are hanging around, you can just 5P them. If it's a low laser fish, you can either block, or double AD forward/back and Turbofall to descend safely if you have to. Just run or crouch under high laser fish. Roll also evades every fish.

To beat the floating spike, it is pretty slow moving so as long as you are constantly shifting around (via BD, FD break) you should be fine. If the Dizzy is using it as a shield and you feel like attacking, just run up and throw her, or hitconfirm a 6P (to 6H or Emerald Rain on hit, or Roll on block) if she tries to poke you as you run in. If not, just block - there's nothing wrong with being patient since you should be able to avoid the fish quite easily anyway.

Could you please define or give examples for what's good mixup after successfully jumping over a poke? And shall I assume this is on the way up from your jump? From my experience, waiting until the maximum height to notice I can attack gives them plenty of time to recover and block whatever I try on the way back down.

Sure. Yes, on the way up - and yes, they do have enough time to recover and block. That's why I said you get a free mixup, not a free combo. :P

You won't even need the Pin to mixup after a whiffed poke, if you were in the air - just jump or AD in with a j.S, which they will block. Then you can either ADC that j.S into high attacks, such as j.K-S, j.S, or j.K-P-K. Or, you can land and go low with 2K-5S (into 2H if you hit, or 2S -> jump-cancel stuff if they block). Or land and throw them.

Damn. I was really hoping that if I found an option to make him pay dearly for having tried to trip me, he'd get wise and try it less. :(

Well... you can just wakeup Winger super if you want to be an ass and beat out stuff, but don't expect that kind of stuff to fly too often against any competent player. It's also a bad habit to get into due to the riskiness of the move, so I'd advise patience and blocking instead.

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the way i see it bro is you just have to relax and play a bit more. Just always block low and when you see gaps learn to FD jump, back dash, or block up. Don't worry about getting hit by 5d too much, in time you will learn how to react to it.

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Depending on how deep the opponent is when you guard a 2D I THINK you can reversal Super with Emerald Rain 236236S for a launch.. The startup is 6 frames.. they are typically in 13-33 frames of revovery IF they didn't jump or special cancel their sweep... Street fighter style. Can an actual Millia player verify this or correct me if I'm wrong please. IB'ing makes this window even easer too.

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Depending on how deep the opponent is when you guard a 2D I THINK you can reversal Super with Emerald Rain 236236S for a launch.. The startup is 6 frames.. they are typically in 13-33 frames of revovery IF they didn't jump or special cancel their sweep... Street fighter style. Can an actual Millia player verify this or correct me if I'm wrong please.

IB'ing makes this window even easer too.

I don't have Accent Core running right now, nor anyone to play with to verify at this time. However, (Millia's my main so) if Millia blocks a sweep and she's darn well close enough, she could hit them with an Emerald Rain. Only if she's really really close though -- since Millia's 6 frame startup and all, they could block out of the sweep if Millia's too far away.

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I'll also clarify that it's possible to super counter a close, blocked 2d with ER. It's especially wonderful in the corner to use on a 2d happy person since you'll get a guaranteed wallbouce for ADC/knockdown potential as well. However as Axel mentioned, it can be blocked if you don't have the right distance when it's initiated. While you should still be relatively safe on recovery from it, the bad news is that you just wasted 50 tension that could have been used for FB disc. :(

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