[CS2] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[JG]

Fuuuck!!! the new 2]D[ bounce way too much!!

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15831851

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yINd1HPCL4E

Carl seem to be way too similar to CS2 carl... but the new 2]D[... sad..

[Rishtopher]

That Carl plays exactly like how I do now lol. Cool but like.. hmmm, I wanted to see how 3]D[ was used and 6C and stuff. Also, I need a second opinion, does it look like Ada's meter usage got buffed to you guys? I dunno about regen, but it looks like it uses a bit less to me?

Also, JG, I dunno what we can say about 2]D[, it only hit once and Ragna was pretty far away already. Maybe if you have the opponent sandwiched tighter, it's not so bad?? I need more vids. Waiting for Jourdal to post the rest.

We didn't really see anything new from this yet, it looks like people are still trying to figure out how to use him and just playing it safe by pretty much only using air combos =\

EDIT: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15832083 You can see Carl try out that 3]D[ loop here, it clearly doesn't work anymore. They opponent just gets stuck on the floor. If you're quick, you can still pick up and combo your opponent (here Carl used 6B) and then go for an air combo. Relevant footage at 2:24 Other than that, he looks like standard CS2 Carl without glidethrows and (j2C+jB) x n. Hopefully we'll see more later. Youtube link when it's up.

[Akiro]

Damn man, =\ that new 2D.......

[sinder]

what's wrong with the new 2D :o ?

if anybody is curious its at the 8:06 mark in JG's youtube link

[Rishtopher]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15832083 You can see Carl try out that 3]D[ loop here, it clearly doesn't work anymore. They opponent just gets stuck on the floor. If you're quick, you can still pick up and combo your opponent (here Carl used 6B) and then go for an air combo. Relevant footage at 2:24 Other than that, he looks like standard CS2 Carl without glidethrows and (j2C+jB) x n. Hopefully we'll see more later. Youtube link when it's up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGRnPrO9Fc&feature=player_detailpage#t=143s

Here's the Youtube link for the aforementioned stuff

[The Noble Clap]

So now 3D just keeps them in KD? Better than CS1, I guess. What's wrong with the new 2D?

[JG]

That Carl plays exactly like how I do now lol. Cool but like.. hmmm, I wanted to see how 3]D[ was used and 6C and stuff. Also, I need a second opinion, does it look like Ada's meter usage got buffed to you guys? I dunno about regen, but it looks like it uses a bit less to me?

Also, JG, I dunno what we can say about 2]D[, it only hit once and Ragna was pretty far away already. Maybe if you have the opponent sandwiched tighter, it's not so bad?? I need more vids. Waiting for Jourdal to post the rest.

We didn't really see anything new from this yet, it looks like people are still trying to figure out how to use him and just playing it safe by pretty much only using air combos =\

EDIT: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15832083 You can see Carl try out that 3]D[ loop here, it clearly doesn't work anymore. They opponent just gets stuck on the floor. If you're quick, you can still pick up and combo your opponent (here Carl used 6B) and then go for an air combo. Relevant footage at 2:24 Other than that, he looks like standard CS2 Carl without glidethrows and (j2C+jB) x n. Hopefully we'll see more later. Youtube link when it's up.

Men, did you check the bounce of 2]D[.. Ragna just flew away way too much, it seem that know combining after a 2]D[ will be more harder, i just hope that 2]D[, Vivance A, Vivance A is still doable if now, we loose a good reset option.

Here you can see the new 3]D[

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15832083

Im having a bad feeling about Carl in BBSEX. Nirvana just take too much time to begin recovering process's, also the new 3]D[ dosnt look any good compared to old 3]D[. Maybe will have his uses but util now im not convinced with the new Carl

Sad that Nirvana recover way to slow.

Well i will wait more footage with Carl, i hope that Carl can improve a lot more.

[Rishtopher]

Men, did you check the bounce of 2]D[.. Ragna just flew away way too much, it seem that know combining after a 2]D[ will be more harder, i just hope that 2]D[, Vivance A, Vivance A is still doable if now, we loose a good reset option.

Yeah, but he was already at the max range of the 2]D[ so I dunno =\

I found a good example of it here against Mu where he's a lot closer to the opponent. The bounce is kinda far but I think if you timed it right, you could B vivace the distance and catch her with 5C. Here he doesn't need to vivace, but it might be because she's pretty much in the corner.

Here's a Youtube link for anyone who wants to see what JG was talking about before

Here you can see the new 3]D[

I already posted a YT link for that one :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGRnPrO9Fc&feature=player_detailpage#t=143s

Here's the Youtube link for the aforementioned stuff

[Mascarpone]

I'm kinda worried. It looks, to me, like his Oki took a horrible beating and his damage wasn't improved at all. And yeah while the change to her life meter in theory makes combing more feasible, that slow recovery is just ouchy.

And if all the old loc test stuff stayed, he lost all of his staggers (5C CH and 6C) too, so bye-bye even more of the old reset potential. I still need to see the 4D change, but given how not-favorable his other stuff is I just feel like it's going to make me sadder. low damage -> massive reset options is cool but when you hamper reset options so sharply and offer no improvement to damage output or defensive options...Also I saw no evidence of dash normals so unless it's just a case of no one finding use for it yet/being too afraid to use it in matches, I feel like that potentially absurd buff is gone. At least jc off of 6B stayed.

I realize it's still very early on so I'm not gonna start ringing the CS Rachel bell yet but I'm scared to say the least. It's not like Arksys hasn't set precedent for over-nerfing a character.

[JG]

I'm kinda worried. It looks, to me, like his Oki took a horrible beating and his damage wasn't improved at all. And yeah while the change to her life meter in theory makes combing more feasible, that slow recovery is just ouchy.

And if all the old loc test stuff stayed, he lost all of his staggers (5C CH and 6C) too, so bye-bye even more of the old reset potential. I still need to see the 4D change, but given how not-favorable his other stuff is I just feel like it's going to make me sadder. low damage -> massive reset options is cool but when you hamper reset options so sharply and offer no improvement to damage output or defensive options...Also I saw no evidence of dash normals so unless it's just a case of no one finding use for it yet/being too afraid to use it in matches, I feel like that potentially absurd buff is gone. At least jc off of 6B stayed.

I realize it's still very early on so I'm not gonna start ringing the CS Rachel bell yet but I'm scared to say the least. It's not like Arksys hasn't set precedent for over-nerfing a character.

Dont worry about 4]D[, because is kinda the same. I think is more easy to combine after a 4]D[, so j2.C alle~can,5C, j.C with 4]D[ is still possible. The problem is if we even manage to get 5K or more with that, Nirvana gauge just start recovering way too slow and we end too vulnerable as a punishment for doing a long combo. What i mean is after we do it, we CAN´T move Nirvana again for a long time because if we DO we will not start the recovering process's, meaning that we will not recover any pixel of Nirvana gauge.

I totally agree with all the thing you said. The problem with this new Carl is that loose a good part of his oki game, in Cs2 Carl oki was very strong but by the look until know, it seem way more weaker and add it that we didnt get any damage buff... so if in Cs2 we were argualy viable to do at least 5K combo with just one meter, here on BCSEX that doesn't look very doable.

I hope that the manage to improve the oki stuff, but like you said, the recovering of Nirvana now hurt a lot.

I hope that Carl doesn't turn into shit, i don't want to stop using it and go for Relius, he really seem to look as a strong char. Arksys why didn't you just remove the loop and improve a little bit Nirvana gauge, that was the only thing i was asking... That way Carl would be just perfect.

The funny thing is that.. when we thought that Carl will be bad because the changes from Cs1 to Cs2 he turned to be a very strong character with a good reset potential and strong oki. NOW! when we think that BBCSEX Carl changes aren't bad and he may be strong, we are starting to realize that he could end being a bad char.

Well, Carl is a char with enormous learning curve so i hope that Kyaku, Eesuke or Ranrero manage to discover a new powerfull tool for Carl and that way still being able to be strong/broken. I still have a little bit hope.

[Akira-Shiro]

Iv also seen the matches for carl,, and yeah. No one is using the 66>ja ftw T-T im praying its still in the game. However the meter thing isnt exactly bad, sure its crappy but our moves take so little meter its such a wonderful thing. Not only that but it also looks like Ada takes less damage from enemy attacks. Iv also seen the new 4D & 2D and its almost unnoticeable so for now lets just hope for the best. However we do have a dmg buff so i guess thats a plus to take up for the missing meter. Carl did 5c>6D and got 1.156k while in cs2 if u do 5c>6d u get 1.095k. Im assuming the p1 of 5c went from 85 to arounf 90 which means stronger combos. Its also ja it does more dmg around 100dmg. Along with jc having a dmg buff.. im not sure if its a proration buff or not... cant tell. Its not the point, the point is we are doing more damage that means we can do longer combos which means more damage as far as im concerned.. Its 5c, Ja, Jc, & 6c.... thats all iv noticed so far they all give us more dmg in our combos

[Rishtopher]

Well, AutonomousR has started putting up the recent Carl vids on his Youtube channel, hopefully we get to see more soon. Honestly, the changes don't affect me too much since I never used (j2C + jB) x n or 3]D[ resets that often. The Carl in those vids plays exactly like I do.

I'm hoping 66>jA is still in there too :S I LOVE that Ada takes less damage, but I'm wondering how much longer it takes for her to recover? It's hard for me to compare in the video. It's gonna be murder if I let her die now though, I'm almost guaranteed a death if I let that happen. Most of what I'm looking forward to learning is if we're gonna be seeing the exact same loops again (like how we had for CS2) or if we can vary it up for the same (or a least comparable) damage. Not a fan of shampoo combos :|

Tightly clutching my top hat and cape while I wait for more vids...

Also, still no Relius vs Carl... I find that so odd. It should be the most hyped match up of this game what with him being on the cover and sharing his last name with another character...

[Mascarpone]

it's not the 3D reset per se that i loved about old 3D. i mean yes it was a borken tool that i'd reach for occasionally. I never over-did it though because after playing against someone who did nothing but reset loops it's just... I don,t want people to hate me. And it's not fun to just loop ad nausium.

What i really loved was being able to turn -every- knock down into a guessing game. 2A? overhead? j.2C corss up? If the bothered to roll they got caught and combo'd. the fact that they had no tech roll options made it so insanely good. It really made up for a lack of damage.

[Osmond]

A hype match up with one character that no one uses

[Zoogstin]

did anybody notice that cantible->6B doesn't work anymore? Its not really a nerf considering how 5C works just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGRnPrO9Fc&feature=player_detailpage#t=5m52s

[Mascarpone]

o.O it looks more like a.) cantabile launches higher or b.) recovers faster because in days of old you had to link that fairly quickly. this looks less like it whiffs because of tech time and more she sails over his head as he goes forward from 6B.

edit: Could also be that 6B messes with Carl's hit box and his hat/small section of his upper body pass through shit now. Which would be weird. And potentially serve for some interesting shenanigans.

Theory time:

1.) You can still do it but you need to delay the input.

2.) If Cantabile is launching higher/recovering faster it allows it to be followed up differently, perhaps with better damaging options? j.2C?

3.) If 6B has some kind of upper body thing, idk all hell breaks loose...

edit again: Nvm she's clearly just going over his head.

[Rishtopher]

A hype match up with one character that no one uses

Actually, yeah I didn't consider that >__>

@Mascarpone: Maybe it has to do with the fact that you can point-blank cantabile now? It might try to correct the trajectory for you so that if you 6B, you're actually going in further than you need to. Also, I thought 6B wasn't jump cancellable anymore, what would anyone need to do it? Cantabile>5C works fine now.

[JG]

OMG!!! MAYBE CARL IS STILL BROKEN!!!

CHECK!

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15843666

We are still able to do the loop AND GET OUR OLD UNBLOCKEABLE FROM CS2!!! OMG! HYPE AGAIN! GOGOGO CARL!

[Osmond]

I have been watching Nisshi taking names since CSEX started, picking up the slack for his entire team and even beating down Mu

Now that is a real Carl.

Whoever said Carl really was going to be D tier needs a smack up side the head for such nonsense. It's almost as dumb as Tager being considered A tier, I mean really what is wrong with people?

[Rishtopher]

BGM (uncomfirmed though)

Relius VS Carl

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/nm15853206

Hmmm, I wonder if this is the real theme. I like it though. I almost wish that this isn't it since I don't hear any opera. I want my damn opera >:U

Also, I guess I'm ok with his new shampoo combo since it isn't as long. I just don't want to see it ad infinitum like CS2 Carl's loop =\

[JG]

Hmmm, I wonder if this is the real theme. I like it though. I almost wish that this isn't it since I don't hear any opera. I want my damn opera >:U

Also, I guess I'm ok with his new shampoo combo since it isn't as long. I just don't want to see it ad infinitum like CS2 Carl's loop =\

We will just have to wait, im really happy now that we still can do Cs2 unblockeable. I don't care if we can do it like Cs2 loop, frankly i don't like the new 3]D[ and 2]D[. Im not sure why they modified 2]D[, now is way more hard to do crossup with that.

[Akira-Shiro]

JG even tho the loop-reset is back its still not exactly all that usefull,, since they modified how adas Hp works im positive we will get only 2-3 reps with ada at Max Hp. Cause we cannot turn her off for it to work we need her on in order to keep them from moving away from us.

It would go 5b>5c>6D>jc>5b>2b>5c>3D>IAD>ja>jb>ja>j2c>ja>ja>jb/3D(#2)(reset) j2c-allecan>5b>5c>6D(#2)>236a>5b>2b>5c>3D(#3)>IAD>ja>jb>ja>j2c>ja>ja>jb/3D(#4) thats gonna be about 4/5 of adas Hp if not more. So ur can do the loop as much as you like.... however i wouldnt recommend it due to how crapy Adas recovery is.

[JG]

JG even tho the loop-reset is back its still not exactly all that usefull,, since they modified how adas Hp works im positive we will get only 2-3 reps with ada at Max Hp. Cause we cannot turn her off for it to work we need her on in order to keep them from moving away from us.

It would go 5b>5c>6D>jc>5b>2b>5c>3D>IAD>ja>jb>ja>j2c>ja>ja>jb/3D(#2)(reset) j2c-allecan>5b>5c>6D(#2)>236a>5b>2b>5c>3D(#3)>IAD>ja>jb>ja>j2c>ja>ja>jb/3D(#4) thats gonna be about 4/5 of adas Hp if not more. So ur can do the loop as much as you like.... however i wouldnt recommend it due to how crapy Adas recovery is.

Still, you have to keep in mind that performing the combo and going for that UB is like 3K dmg, with just 3 ub you will be dealing like 9K. Also, this is like the 4th day for Carl, maybe with more time the japs players can exploits that.

That UB is legit as fuck, and it will have is uses. Even if you can use it one time and then go for a reset, in the end you will be dealing a lot of dmg.

[Osmond]

I wonder if they are trying to go for a more Austrian-eastern europe feel, considering Opera is more traditionally a mediterranean thing as I have come to understand.

Still a good song, melo without being dull.

[Rishtopher]

Well you explain it like that, it makes a lot more sense why it was omitted. I'm still kinda bummed about it, if nothing else, I was more hyped that the theme would be my new favourite song. Marionette Purple reigns supreme it seems. Maybe I'll like it more when I see the matchup though? I felt the same about Nightmare Fiction til I saw good Ragna vs Haz gameplay while it was playing.

With Ada's armor and meter being better, I think Carl can afford to be more aggressive. I want to wait and see if the extra meter is able to get us combos with comparable (if not more) damage to one the new 3D>IAD>jA etc loops. I dunno if we're gonna be seeing 2D in CON so much anymore since it looks like you have to backdash pretty far. It's not so bad that you can't combo it though, it just looks like you need a lot of space. 4D doesn't look bad at all to me so far.