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4r5

[AC] Johnny vs Slayer

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SLAYER MATCHUP INFORMATION

Poking Game

More to come!...? You can help!

Strategy

More to come!...? You can help!

Specific Punishes

More to come!...? You can help!

Setups/baits

More to come!...? You can help!

Knowledge

Frame advantage of Slayer's 6K

block type: atWorst/atBest

Standard Guard: +5/+9

Instant Block: +2/+6

Faultless Defense: +8/+12

To help put these numbers in to perspective. Slayer's fastest normal is 2P, at four frames of startup. Johnny's fastest normal is 5P, 2P, and 2HS, all at five frames of startup.

More to come!...? You can help!

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Can anyone give some advice on this matchup? I play a really good Slayer who has a great dandy-step mixup and reacts very well to everything I try to throw out. I know Johnny has no hope of out-poking Slayer but there has to be something Johnny can do to avoid being Dandied/Bat-stomped/Pile-bunkered to death. Thanks

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I dunno that much about this matchup, but i think you will need to try and keep him at middle range, so that your midrannge low/mid pokes are able to stuff some of slayers stuff (2d, 2s, 5k, 5f.s). also you can dash over his stomp, if you can predict it, dash throw. And watch your ass if slayer has 25% tension, if you get slayer at range and cannot close the gap, the big bang uppercut will end your day.

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If he's reacting to "everything" your doing then you're not varying yourself well. Mixing up doesn't even have to be high/low/throw, it can be as simple as waiting a little longer before throwing out a HS, or just tapping down twice before walking up and throwing someone. And Johnny can certainly out poke Slayer. That's mostly how I fight Slayer. Gotta keep a good eye on him, let him make the first move, then be quick on the trigger. Kinda scary, but it's do-able. Or you can avoid the situation all together and just run away and give Slayer a hard time as he tries to move in on you.

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Longer normals. Good air control with j.s, j.d for catching techs, high ass super jump. Johnny just has to be really careful WHEN he does things because of his really long recovery.

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run away JO seems to do better for me against slayer. i like to add in 2k/ 2s just to stuff his dash attempts. coin seems to work wonder against dandy if used sparingly. forward dash upper finer net me a lot of CH against j.Hs spammer always watch his bar for that random bbu or super... its not so bad once u pace urself and keep a constant watch as 4r5 had stated. slayers 5p seems to be fairly good... sometimes my jump-in attempt get stuff by that..mabe mixing up the approach with iad kf frc delayed hs to mess around with his timing? against teleport x2 throw oki its not a good idea to try to beat it with any normal other than 2p... in these case its probably the safest to one-frame jump or try to anticipate the throw by holding down one direction and throw-break it.

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Slayer has an awesome array of anti-airs at his disposal. Not to mention they're fast and safe. Be careful.

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yup definitely. one more thing to add, when doing coin cancel pressure strings be wary of Slayer's offensive option. If u are pushed back after ur block string dont try to coin then dash in to continue as mappa, BBU, and DoT can go right thru and hit johnny before the coin hits for the CH ;d probably best to attempt dash throw or reposition urself once more for a new set of pressure strings against him.

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Using the 6P to counter the Air HS of Slayer is important. But it must be done quickly otherwise Joh take a CH. Often, the 6P clash be if your attentive, you can directly imput a S© to launch Slayer. Good remark to JoFan about Joh's String pressure and Slayer's BBU options. He can cross lot of Johnny's Poke like HS, K... It's recommend to use low poke (2S,2K) in pressure to prevent an eventual BBU. I this case, The BBU will be broken by the Johnny's poke.

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5K stuffs Mappa all day. Coin During Dandy Step. Coin his J.HS attempts (Trust and believe it has been my only reliable option because 6P gets a counter hit too often, and Upper Finer a lot of time clashes, and sometimes he actually HITS YOU WITH A CH. I'M NOT CRAZY I'VE SEEN IT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SLAYER BEING CLOSE HE WAS WELL INTO THE AIR. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!! :vbang: ) His hitbox is great for mix-ups, cross ups, and combos overall so I think people should invest extra time in combos on him. Not just for the fact that his body is optimal for combos but also because you never want to fuck up a chance to punish him. Oh yeah and if you have him in the corner, and are close enough use a Lvl 1 Few Mist Upper Finers once in a while. If it is a really good Slayer, he'll BDC Jump your pressure, and a Mist Finer will bring him back to Earth or at most get you a combo. If he tries to Mappa, he will get stuffed to with the upper finer, and also the move has great recovery so there is not a great chance to punish. If you scare them out of jumping, you have done your job too.

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5K stuffs Mappa all day.

Coin During Dandy Step.

Coin his J.HS attempts (Trust and believe it has been my only reliable option because 6P gets a counter hit too often, and Upper Finer a lot of time clashes, and sometimes he actually HITS YOU WITH A CH. I'M NOT CRAZY I'VE SEEN IT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SLAYER BEING CLOSE HE WAS WELL INTO THE AIR. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!! :vbang: )

His hitbox is great for mix-ups, cross ups, and combos overall so I think people should invest extra time in combos on him. Not just for the fact that his body is optimal for combos but also because you never want to fuck up a chance to punish him.

Oh yeah and if you have him in the corner, and are close enough use a Lvl 1 Few Mist Upper Finers once in a while. If it is a really good Slayer, he'll BDC Jump your pressure, and a Mist Finer will bring him back to Earth or at most get you a combo. If he tries to Mappa, he will get stuffed to with the upper finer, and also the move has great recovery so there is not a great chance to punish. If you scare them out of jumping, you have done your job too.

A3 are you sure that 5K stuffs Mappa all day? I've recentley had some Slayer fights and I can remember that most times I used it I ate a CH...:vbang: '

(off topic: is your avatar a female Johnny? If so...that's hot. Where'd you find the pic?)

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from this thread:

Johnny

2H

level 1 Mist Finer K

level 1 Mist Finer S

Ensenga

(air) 236S

(air)214S

Jackhound

Return Jackhound

632146H can be punished with 2K

Level 2 Mist finer P and K and level 3 Mist finer K and S can be punished with DOT.

so, in essence, don't use any high risk pokes or specials against slayer, or else he'll bbu. then again, you shouldn't be using most of these against anyone to begin with.

as a slayer alt, this matchup is particularly interesting to me because both slayer and johnny have to be very close to do good damage. keep him away with 5k, and link gatlings accordingly at every chance you get. remember that when he's given the chance, slayer tends to go for combo setups more than anything (sounds familiar... :JO:), so watch out for pilebunkers and stomps when you're in the corner.

also, as something worth noting, his j.H is almost identical to johnny's; you don't want to eat a CH from that shit.

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5K can stuff Mappas. You said it yourself, you only got CHed most of the times--not all the time. Just got to get it out faster, so you CH him, instead of him CHing you.

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A3 are you sure that 5K stuffs Mappa all day? I've recentley had some Slayer fights and I can remember that most times I used it I ate a CH...:vbang: '

(off topic: is your avatar a female Johnny? If so...that's hot. Where'd you find the pic?)

4r5 said it all.

Yeah, it is hot shit. I got it off of the Fan art thread. I think it was rtl42 or something like that for posting it. Thanks to him.

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5K stuffs Mappa all day.

Not at all, just in the case where you use preventive Kick to face up to the possibility that Slayer makes a Mappa.

In compensation, if Johnny makes the 5K when the mappa is already out or too close, it's CH for Slayer. -> Adios Amigos

Coin his J.HS attempts

It's very not recommended. In many situations, Slayer will avoid the coin because of the little Hitbox of the Slayer's jHS. You can do the coin just in the case where the Slayer's player makes the jHS too far of Johnny. But it's a big error from the Slayer's player.

In general, the coin will be beat by the jHS and most of the time, there will be CH for Slayer.--> GoodBye Johnny

An other very important thinks. Never try to punish Slayer's pokes like mappa, 6K, 6HS, PB EX, etc..

In the case where the Slayer's player makes a Dandy, if you whiff with a slow attack (HS in general), you're exposed to a Dandy HS CH or other madness.

But IB > K his a good alternative in this situation because your safe, Johnny gots the time to recovery before the Dandy Attack.

Other stuff, the MF-S(2) beat a whiffed Mappa (but not at the startup) and lead to a powerfull combo to Johnny.

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Not at all, just in the case where you use preventive Kick to face up to the possibility that Slayer makes a Mappa.

In compensation, if Johnny makes the 5K when the mappa is already out or too close, it's CH for Slayer. -> Adios Amigos

Johnny controls the Mid range, so he has to be farther than that to even consider the Mappa. The Mappa P start up is 11 frames and the K is 14 frames coming from outside of Mid range added into the frame equation and you can't stop it with a move that is 6 frames. I think you may need to work on your hand-eye coordination a bit.

It's very not recommended. In many situations, Slayer will avoid the coin because of the little Hitbox of the Slayer's jHS. You can do the coin just in the case where the Slayer's player makes the jHS too far of Johnny. But it's a big error from the Slayer's player.

In general, the coin will be beat by the jHS and most of the time, there will be CH for Slayer.--> GoodBye Johnny

An other very important thinks. Never try to punish Slayer's pokes like mappa, 6K, 6HS, PB EX, etc..

In the case where the Slayer's player makes a Dandy, if you whiff with a slow attack (HS in general), you're exposed to a Dandy HS CH or other madness.

But IB > K his a good alternative in this situation because your safe, Johnny gots the time to recovery before the Dandy Attack.

Other stuff, the MF-S(2) beat a whiffed Mappa (but not at the startup) and lead to a powerfull combo to Johnny.

Let's take a look at all of Johnny's AAs:

5HS: not even half realistic.

5P: HaHaHaHa

6P: Has honestly a 20-10% chance of success, which is not even realistic to incorporate.

5K: Hell NO!!

6K: If you don't know this a horrible idea, I don't know what to say.

Coin: is a projectile with 4 frames with great recovery. Hmmmm.... I think I'll go with that.

The only other realistic idea is to either Backdash or forward dash under the move.

Also the word NEVER is a dangerous one to use in any debate over an issue. I have stopped those same pokes to NEVER stuff way too often to take what you said seriously. Also when I do stop the Mappa I lead into 2D-Coin, or 5K-HS-into Bread and Butter. If you want to see how I deal with Slayer you could just watch it on youtube.

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Johnny controls the Mid range, so he has to be farther than that to even consider the Mappa. The Mappa P start up is 11 frames and the K is 14 frames coming from outside of Mid range added into the frame equation and you can't stop it with a move that is 6 frames. I think you may need to work on your hand-eye coordination a bit.

Knowing Frames and equation don't mean that the fight will happen like in the frame-list. I prefer to use what I see rather than what is write in the Mook.

Of course you're right in the case where you use 5K early when you fill the mappa or you see the tart-up of the mappa at mid-range.

Let's take a look at all of Johnny's AAs:

5HS: not even half realistic.

5P: HaHaHaHa

6P: Has honestly a 20-10% chance of success, which is not even realistic to incorporate.

5K: Hell NO!!

6K: If you don't know this a horrible idea, I don't know what to say.

Coin: is a projectile with 4 frames with great recovery. Hmmmm.... I think I'll go with that.

The only other realistic idea is to either Backdash or forward dash under the move.

An other good option is the Air throw but a little bit risked. :cool:

Also, An IB>Throw/OD can save you if the slayer's jHS out too high.

The Guard/FD is a good solution too.;) You will be able to escape without any problem with that.

Also the word NEVER is a dangerous one to use in any debate over an issue. I have stopped those same pokes to NEVER stuff way too often to take what you said seriously. Also when I do stop the Mappa I lead into 2D-Coin, or 5K-HS-into Bread and Butter. If you want to see how I deal with Slayer you could just watch it on youtube.

Ahah If you talk about your match with DandyStepper, All that I see, is that the slayer don't know some particular char specif combos and punishment Joh (BBU under the coin, 5P beat all joh's air pokes (jHS, jK.. except KJ of course), Air Dash Punition (Air Throw, BBU,.. etc etc), and seems to lose his Guard too easily. He has a lake of patience.

For exemple, at Hand-to-hand fight, Johnny's S© beat the 6K of Slayer. There are many stuff like that and you have to know them.

A lot of players seem not to know that if you perform a simple FD on the 6K of Slayer, you will be able to escape directly after the hit and not to be subjected to a new pressure... It's valid for other slayer's pokes.

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Knowing Frames and equation don't mean that the fight will happen like in the frame-list. I prefer to use what I see rather than what is write in the Mook.

Of course you're right in the case where you use 5K early when you fill the mappa or you see the tart-up of the mappa at mid-range.

Alright so we were disagreeing to agree then if that was the case. Also I take the Mook seriously because moves can be deceiving to look at when you are fighting. After I read the Mook I understand how fast moves really are, to counter them.

An other good option is the Air throw but a little bit risked. :cool:

Also, An IB>Throw/OD can save you if the slayer's jHS out too high.

The Guard/FD is a good solution too.;) You will be able to escape without any problem with that.

I use the Air throw a lot also but never tried the IB OD (not big on using OD outside of gatling pressure and wake up). Also never really tried the FDing on him. I like these options but I don't think that changes the fact that Coin still works for me consistently on all the Slayer players I play. Rarely I do get hit but the odds are way better to me than anything else.

Ahah If you talk about your match with DandyStepper, All that I see, is that the slayer don't know some particular char specif combos and punishment Joh (BBU under the coin, 5P beat all joh's air pokes (jHS, jK.. except KJ of course), Air Dash Punition (Air Throw, BBU,.. etc etc), and seems to lose his Guard too easily. He has a lake of patience.

For exemple, at Hand-to-hand fight, Johnny's S© beat the 6K of Slayer. There are many stuff like that and you have to know them.

A lot of players seem not to know that if you perform a simple FD on the 6K of Slayer, you will be able to escape directly after the hit and not to be subjected to a new pressure... It's valid for other slayer's pokes.

DandyStepper and I were conditioned after lots of fights to fight in that manner, For example, he didn't BBU because I FD/IBed it too often, and it lead into a free combo for me everytime or he wouldn't AA me a lot because a lot of times I would DB him coming down. Most of those fights were like 30 or so deep in fights we had that day. I wouldn't say he doesn't know the match up, its because I have been playing my Johnny against his Slayer for years, and after a while things get weird after counterattacking counters all the time.

Also Bro it seems like you have a lot of good ideas but why do you have to say them while debating to agree with a lot of the stuff I am saying. Why don't you just put them down for everyone to see as opposed to going back and forth me to say them.

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I use the Air throw a lot also but never tried the IB OD (not big on using OD outside of gatling pressure and wake up). Also never really tried the FDing on him. I like these options but I don't think that changes the fact that Coin still works for me consistently on all the Slayer players I play. Rarely I do get hit but the odds are way better to me than anything else.

The real problem is that the coin don't beat the jhS if Slayer is well vertically close too Johnny. It's a problem of distance. There is a zone in mid air versus Joh where the coin definitively will not beat the jHS and normally the Slayer know this zone.

Of course a slayer's IAD/HS at mid range his a fresh opportunity to set a CH coin and a combo 1Hit but it's a true gift for a Joh to do that and with all Chars...

DandyStepper and I were conditioned after lots of fights to fight in that manner, For example, he didn't BBU because I FD/IBed it too often, and it lead into a free combo for me everytime or he wouldn't AA me a lot because a lot of times I would DB him coming down. Most of those fights were like 30 or so deep in fights we had that day. I wouldn't say he doesn't know the match up, its because I have been playing my Johnny against his Slayer for years, and after a while things get weird after counterattacking counters all the time.

All right,

if you FD the jHS, first you don't expose Joh to a Spe throw or HandtoHand stuffs.

If you IB, you have to know at what height Slayer is to counter-attack or not. If he is too High -> OD but if he is too close of the Ground, Guarding of course.

But this case is rare because a good slayer seeing is error will cancel the jHS by the j214K of course..

In this situation you have to chose the right answer quickly.:psyduck:

Also Bro it seems like you have a lot of good ideas but why do you have to say them while debating to agree with a lot of the stuff I am saying. Why don't you just put them down for everyone to see as opposed to going back and forth me to say them.

I know, but I don't wanna see some mistakes that a new player could see and do in some post. It's very important, you have to do the good option in each situations.

For my last sentences of the other post, I'm sorry, it's just others stuffs for the match-up. :keke:

It's a recurrent problem in this site and particularly on Joh's section, too much mistakes wrote and no report...:gonk:

It's very important that everyone be well open-minded and can have different opinion with "US-known player" like 4r5,A3Religion, Redbeard etc... :)

I'm sure you understand what I want to say you.

(Sorry for this off-board)

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The real problem is that the coin don't beat the jhS if Slayer is well vertically close too Johnny. It's a problem of distance. There is a zone in mid air versus Joh where the coin definitively will not beat the jHS and normally the Slayer know this zone.

Of course a slayer's IAD/HS at mid range his a fresh opportunity to set a CH coin and a combo 1Hit but it's a true gift for a Joh to do that and with all Chars...

Alright Great I am glad that you finally clarified what you meant by that. If he is that vertical to me, I usually forward dash under it. I don't always coin, but in cases where they are in the right position I am all for it. I know as well as anyone how retarded the hitbox on that move is so I know not to take it lightly.

I know, but I don't wanna see some mistakes that a new player could see and do in some post. It's very important, you have to do the good option in each situations.

For my last sentences of the other post, I'm sorry, it's just others stuffs for the match-up. :keke:

It's a recurrent problem in this site and particularly on Joh's section, too much mistakes wrote and no report...:gonk:

It's very important that everyone be well open-minded and can have different opinion with "US-known player" like 4r5,A3Religion, Redbeard etc... :)

I'm sure you understand what I want to say you.

(Sorry for this off-board)

Look I don't mind that you had a difference of opnion to what I was already saying, the only thing I had a qualm about is that a lot of what you were saying could have been used to help on its own accord as opposed to against my advice that is all that I was saying.

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So I've just come to the painful realization that backdashing to bait dandies is a bad idea, because once the Slayer catches on it's a Mappa to the face -> whatever -> death. Any other ways to bait a Dandy-stepping-happy Slayer?

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? I'm not sure I get your question. It sounds like you're already getting him to do the dandy, you just aren't hitting him out of the dandy.

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block or attack attacking back will depend on what he's doing, throw is usually a good bet though. you can avoid the whole mixup all together by hitting him out of the dandy step. or are you using 'dandy mixup' to mean something else?

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