Formation Tactics/ Zoning / Okizieme

[Tigerofthewind]

Here's a thread of all the formation uses and tactics that I know of and find useful. Feel free to add. Note that these are all for either 2 ball or 3 ball formations and that the formations are done with a fair distance away, usually a screens length or somewhat close to one.

There's going to be alot of repeating of stuff so instead of saying balls all the time I'm just going to refer to them as either being Pb/Kb/Sb/HSb/Db.

------------------------------Zoning formations------------------------------

K ball> S Ball:

Straight ball Condition

Usage: Either used as a zoning tool that forces the opponent to IAD or jump. Can also be used as a shield when dashing in and advancement. Probably the most versatile in terms of zoning out of all the formations.

P Hit - There's alot of uses and conditions concerning this so I'll split it up.

Condition 1: P as soon as the S ball starts forming. Kb and Sb will launch simulteanously with Sb being behind Kb. Depending on your timing of the P hit, Sb will be slightly higher or lower than Kb or will be level and the two blue auras surrounding the balls will overlap with eachother. Higher and level conditions do no effect the followups but lower does. Note that if you don't followup with any of the following hits, it's possible for characters to 6P their way through and may catch you while trying to summon more balls. Furthermore, if opponents are close enough, some characters their low pokes will get you.

Higher and Level conditions:

After you've hit the balls, you can followup with a 6P. This will change the trajectory of the balls to bounce off the ground and then go almost upwards. Useful for those who like to Airdash in. However, it should also be noted that doing this too early can lead to being punished as the opponent will be able to dodge the balls and you'll be stuck in recovery frames of 6P. It's usually best to dash and follow the balls and/or wait to see what the opponent does then 6P. You can also do 6HS, but it is slightly risky. 6HS would mainly be for opponent a bit further away and you want a good preemptive attack.

Lower ball condition(Note that these conditions can also work with Higher and Level however it's more consistent with Lower):

So after you've hit Sb/Kb with P you have a couple of options you can do. The first is 6P. Unlike the high and level conditions, when hit the Sb/Kb with 6P the balls will not go in the same direction but instead both will go in different directions. Sb will go about 10 degrees off of Vertical towards Venom while Kb will go towards the enemy. Furthermore, depending on how late you decide to hit this, either both balls will travel at the same speed or the Kb will travel at a much lower speed(P hit speed). There are a few cases however where Sb will travel slow and Kb will travel fast. This is more useful than the one direction because the Kb will keep opponents who haven't already jumped and try to get in from jumping as well as Sb provides some cover Venom. At the worst Venom might get hit and knocked down far reaching air move like Baiken's j.S but it's not too bad for most characters. Venom will have recovered to be able to block anything coming his way as well as the Sb coming back your way will most likely hit the opponent. Furthermore, the condition where Sb travels slow is good as well as your opponent will have to stop their attack string in order to block the ball.

HS is the other followup that you can do. The timing is somewhat strict though. Connecting HS right after P will cause the balls to split and fly at the opponent very quickly. They'll either be still on the ground blocking that or in the air blocking that or eating shit. There's 3 seperate conditions that may happen when you do this.

1. Sb will travel slow downwards and Kb travels fast upwards

2. Sb will travel fast downwards and Kb travels slow upwards

3. Both balls travel fast.

All of these conditions don't really matter since all of them leave you in the advantage position. There's pretty much no way that I can think of for an opponent to get this other than Eddie with his Drunkard Shade and with some sort of projectile so pretty much Venom is safe to summon more balls.

Condition 2: This condition is similar to the first one with the exception that the Sb and Kb are not touching. It's pretty much the same idea as Condition 1 except with minor difference. The first is the 6P will now only change the trajectory of Sb to go upwards while Kb doesn't change direction. S is also now usable. It's basically the same idea as HS except can be done later. To make it angle like HS the balls still have to be somewhat close to eachother. If the balls are in condition 1 the S will whiff. Same principles though. Another thing is if spaced far enough apart S will only hit Sb. This will speed up the Sb. The basic effect of this is that if the opponent jumps to dodge the Sb they'll then have to deal with Kb which most likely if they try super jump or AD, they might fall into Venom's 6P or 6HS.

2P Hit: There's not much to be said here. You basically wait for the balls to set and then you hit them with 2P and then P or the other way around. It'll give a sort of Tiger effect like in Street Fighter depending on how you space them out. You can also this with single balls as well.

2S: Same shit as 2P but faster. Good for forcing the opponent to advance however if close enough they may catch you during the recovery frames.

HS Hit: Fast balls going at the opponent. Good to change it up if you're mainly using slow balls.

K Hit: Good for forcing opponent to either block or dodge. Fast recovery so you can P the Kb afterwards therefore making it tough for those looking to airdash in and punish you. Probably a much better choice in using this than S Hit.

Angle ball condition

K Hit: basic split. Not much to be said. Good zoning tool.

S Hit: Faster version of K hit. Does more damage on connect.

2P Hit: Creates a slow split. Very good for space control. Can followup with Stinger Aim for 3 balls or summon another Pb or Sb to further force the opponent to block. Repeat and it'll make it very hard for the opponent to try and get in. After the 3rd ball summon you then have alot of options and have enough time to summon another set of two or 3 balls. Should be noted that this is better than the Kb>Pb>P>Pb formation because the balls are spaced closer together making it tougher for the opponent to break through and gives you more time to summon more balls.

K ball>P ball

Usage: This formation is essentially the same as Kb>Sb however is more focused on angles.

P Hit: Will create an angle similar to the 2P Hit of Kb>Sb formation. Angle is not as evenly divided as the other one. Can be followed up with another Pb summon.

K Hit: faster version of P hit. Similar to K hit of other Kb>Sb

S Hit: Similar to Kb>Sb formation.

HS hit: Fastest of all the hits. Does a straight line with both balls.

S ball> P ball

Usage: Essential the same as Kb>Pb but the Sb bounces at a lower angle.

P hit: If hit early enough, only the Pb will hit and the Sb will remain. useful for using as a shield for going in as well as the Sb there helps with either retreating or pressure. If not, Sb will create nice angle low to the ground while Pb will cover mid-high screen.

K hit: faster version of P hit with pretty much the same conditions and effects.

S hit: will send both balls straight. Pb will be a small distance behind Sb.

HS hit: Faster version of K hit

HS ball>P ball

Usage: Since the distance between the two balls is a bit greater, the Pb won't hit HSb right away. This formation has it's uses like when you want a late split. Pb provides coverage for those jumping in since it goes in a straight line until it connects with HSb. Should be noted that Venom should hit the balls before they completely go into formation or else split won't connect.

P Hit: Like I mentioned. connects with HSb late for late split. Provides air coverage for those trying to AD in.

K Hit: Faster version of P hit.

HS ball>K ball

Usage: Best usage is probably to control space. Not that useful but good if your opponent is turtling.

2P Hit: Probably the best option for this formation. Basically what you do is hit the HSb and afterwards you have alot of options to pick from. You can either do j.P to zone out the opponent(note this can be done in the reverse) or j.S which will connect HSb and Kb in a low split. You can also use j.K but it's not as good. Another good option is to use j.HS. This will create a fast upward split depending on how early you j.HS(note, it doesn't have to split with HSb in order for it to potential catch the opponent in the air) that will catch your opponent if they try to IAD in or jump. All of these can be airdashed afterwards but j.HS is the hardest I find.

K Hit: Another good option to use with this formation. Same as the 2P but faster. Advisable to use to force the opponent to make a move. recovery is fast enough to possibly punish the opponent for dashing in. Low enough that 6Ps won't be able to dodge.

More formations to come!!!

[Tigerofthewind]

-----------------------------Okizieme-----------------------------

Here's some usefull Okizieme involving ball formations that I've seen used by top players in Japan and regular Venom players.

HS Dubious Curve OR D Dubious Curve>HS ball:

Usage:This is a useful midscreen to near corner okizieme. Best when used midscreen.

Setups: There's different ways to setting this up but pretty much the main two are

1. Combo>HS>(HS DC/D DC>HSb)

2. Throw combo>HS DC(It's possible for you to have summoned another ball before HS DC. I find it best to either use S ball or D ball)

3. Random 6P or 6HS>HS DC

Execution: Very simple here. dashjump>j.HS. The charged ball will fly downward on top of the opponent at a really fast speed. It's best to j.HS as quickly as possible because the recovery time for j.HS is longer than Venom's other air moves and gives you more options.

NOTE: with the HS>Dubious Curve Setup, depending on how long you dash before jumping will affect whether or not you land in front of them or behind them or not. However with the other two setups it appears that you send them sliding too far to crossup.

Options After Execution: There's alot of things you can do depending on how early you j.HS. All these options assume that you hit j.HS during the dashjump much like how Sol executed his Dustloop in Reload.

1. dashjump>j.HS>land>2K>combo

2. dashjump>j.HS>FB Madstruggle(Misses when crossing up)

3. dashjump>j.HS>land>TK madstruggle

4. dashjump>j.HS>land>2D>S Carcass Raid>combo

5. dashjump>j.HS>land>2D>Stinger Aim>FRC>combo

6. dashjump>j.HS>back airdash> j.S>c.S>combo

7. dashjump>j.HS>land>2P/2K>throw

8. dashjump>j.HS>land>2D>Carcass Raid+cancel(if they block 2D)>throw

Safety: Pretty safe IMO. I've tried countering it with uppercuts and supers but it seems that the ball is just too fast and usually catches the opponent right when they wake up so most of the time if an opponent tries something they're going to eat shit. However there are occassions where you're too far away and you can't manage to get the j.HS fast enough. This gives them time to FD jump or potentially do something else.

Sb>Pb>Kb OR Pb>Sb>Kb

K-Formation:-K--------------------

-----------------------P----------

----------------------------------

----------------------------------

-------------------------S---------

Usage: Common midscreen okizieme. Can be used near corner and in corner.

Setups: Most common setups are off throws or random 6P counter hits.

1. Throw: 6P>6HS>Sb>6HS>Pb>Kb

2. Random 6P>6HS>Sb>6HS>Pb>Kb

3. Throw or random 6P>6HS>Sb>6HS>Pb>dash in a little>Kb

Execution: Basic execution. After the last ball is summoned, just either dashjump or jump and do either j.K or j.S. There's not much difference in these two options other than the speed they travel and minor angle deviations as well as recovery frames. Afterwards usually Venom players like to airdash in and decide their options from there.

NOTE: The 3rd setup is slightly different. Depending on how far you dashed in the S ball will either be positioned behind the opponent or just in front of them. This execution if mainly for a quick mixup or crossup. Basic execution is to warp right after you've summoned the last ball. You be right overhead of them or behind them. See options 4 and 5 for details.

Options:

1. You can decide not to airdash but instead dashjump in. A bit trickier since you'll have to time the hit of the Kb better or else you miss.

2. After the airdash, you can do a basic j.K or j.S into whatever you want. If you're near the corner a j.D finisher would be best since it'll give a wall bounce and possible opportunity for 6P>6HS combo. If not, I'd just go with j.K>jS>land>c.S>whatever

3. After airdash just land. Options from here are 2K>whatever or TK Madstruggle>whatever

4. Warp in front of opponent, and most moves will make for a nice overhead. j.S is good because of the quick recovery time therefore along a followup on the ground such as c.S or 2K

5. Warp behind the opponent. How far behind opponent depends the distance you summoned the last ball from the opponent. NOTE: that if done perfectly the ball should be RIGHT BEHIND the opponent. Venom will warp right overhead and behind the opponent. However Venom will not be facing the opponents direction. Therefore hits like j.HS will not hit the opponent. j.S is the best option here since it's odd hitbox. After j.S it's pretty much basic c.S>whatever

Pb>HSb>Sb OR HSb>Pb>Sb

S-Formation:-------P--------------

----------------------------------

----------------------------------

----------------------------------

---------------HS-----S----------

Usage: Great corner formation with alot of Okizieme options. This also a good formation if blocked as well since you can maintain pressure even if they guess your high low game.

Setup:

1. throw 6P>6HS>Pb>6HS>HSb>Sb

2. combo>DC(can either be HS ball or P ball)>HSb/Pb>Sb

NOTE: Depending on what you want to do, decide whether to do Pb DC or HS DC

Options:

1. Any: jump forward>j.S or j.K> airdash back> j.HS>whatever

2. Pb DC: jump forward>j.S>airdash forward>whatever

3. Pb DC: jump forward>j.S>land>whatever

4. HS DC: jump forward>j.S>ADB>j.HS>land>S>S Stinger Aim>whatever

5. HS DC: P (should hit both S ball and HS ball as they are going into formation)> pressure string

5. HS DC: P>jump forward>j.S>whatever

There's more but I can't think of them off the bat.

Usefulness: Good formation for keeping an opponent locked down in the corner. P Dubious Curve is if you want a meaty 3 hit blockstun while you jump in or HS Dubious Curve if you want a meaty shield after doing Stinger Aim.

HSb>Kb

K-Formation:-K-----------

-------------------------

-------------------------

--------------HS---------

-------------------------

Usage: Great all around okizieme formation. Has many uses and is versatile whether it's midscreen or corner.

Options at midscreen:

1. K the charged HSb to keep them locked down.

2. j.K or j.S the Kb for high-low mixup and use the HSb as a retreat or to extend the pressure string with Stinger Aim

Options in corner: Pretty much the same as at midscreen except alot easier to maintain pressure and more opportunities to do mixups.

HSb>Sb

S-Formation:-

--

-

-

------HS-----S------

Usage: Great setup in the corner since it'll extend your pressure.

Options:

1. 2S into pressure.

2. 2D into Dubious Curve. The extra blockstun due to the ball will make it harder for them to punish the Dubious Curve.

Sb>HSb>Db

D-Formation:-----------------

------------------------------

-------------D---------S------

------------------HS-----------

-------------D-----------------

Usage: Good formation when they're at a bit of distance. Since you're at a distance it's relatively safe from things like uppercut or super. Generally a good f.S will do the trick. This will either give you time to set up a ball or two or go in for pressure. It should be noted that the D ball will be around the bolded position when you're hitting it.

Options:

1. S to keep the lockdown on okizieme. Then 2S to hit the HS ball or leave the HS and start with pressure. If your S connects with them as well then you can summon another ball and still be at frame advantage to start pressure.

2. S and then summon some balls to further zoning.

K ball

Usage: Basic cross-up ball. Distance that the K ball is from your opponent depends on the setup.

Setups are usually 2D[1hit or 2 hit]>K ball since DC will send them sliding too far away for any kind of mixup but does however allow for mixup similar to the HS ball.

Options: Kinda hard to explain crossups and I assume that you'd be smart enough to figure out what options you have.

Kb>Pb>Sb

S-Formation:--------P-------

-------------------------------

-------------------------K-----

------------------------------

--------------- ----S---------

Usage: Basically used for more advanced corner setups. You can do alot of things such as teleports to start it off. Great mixup potential as well as jump cancel mixups. Once again, this is more advanced stuff so experiment around and see what works best. Don't really wanna put up options right now.

[Tigerofthewind]

-------------------Shit People Can Punish You With-------------------

Thought this thread might be useful as it makes Venom players weary of doing the same pressure tactics.This is basically all the ways different characters can punish Venom. So hopefully this helps others avoid eating shit like I do.

Dubious Curve: Great move with good blockstun. However if the opponent anticipates it, prepare to eat shit. So my advice is not to pull out too often because you're gonna have to FRC to avoid getting punished. Also, pretty much every character can backdash out of Dubious Curve if timed right. Note that these are all for pressure strings and blockstrings. Not combos.

Dubious Curve Punishes:

Slayer: Slayer is possibly THE best character for punishing Venom, it's no wonder he's Venom's worst matchup.

Option 1: Big Bang Uppa. Will go through Venom's DC. Venom will have to anticipate the BBU and FRC in order to block it. If not, this will most likely lead to a very damaging combo on Slayer's part. The easiest for Slayer to punish Venom on is 2D>DC. The window for punish is smaller if Venom does HS>DC and even smaller is c.S>DC so c.S>DC is probably your safest option. HS>DC is still pretty good since has a tiny gap so most of the time if Slayer tries to BBU he'll eat a DC. However on the off-chance that the Slayer is really on his game.....Yeah...

Option 2: Dandy Step into Pile Bunker. Effective move, can be used when anticipation of DC is 2-4 frames late. Cannot go into big damage but is probably Slayer's most surefire way to get Venom off him since it can be done somewhat late into the DC animation. Infact, the move is able to dodge just as the ball comes out and you see the purple streak of light so the window for the opponent to input the command is roughly when Venom is just about to turn around and hit the DC. However Slayer won't get a counter hit. Dandy Step is most effective against 2D>DC with the largest gap due to pushback and HS>DC the second largest. c.S>DC and 2S>DC is safer however because the push back isn't as bad. It also should be noted that Slayer can't do Dandy Step in the corner to avoid DC.

Option 3: 236x2 HS Overdrive. Probably the hardest to do but can be used to punish. I don't know much about Slayer so I don't know if he can combo after this or not.

Option 4: Backdash. Slayer will completely dodge DC. I don't know much about Slayer's BDC so I'm not sure if it's just a dodge or a punish as well. Just a note that Slayer can do this anywhere on screen including corner.

Testament: Not much to be said. Not a whole of of options when countering but some good ones. Pretty much the primary one Venom should be aware of is 2HS. With it's invincible frames, A good Testament can easily turn a 2HS counter hit into a Badlands loop. Timing is a little strict for Testament but good anticipation will do the trick. I've been hit by this plenty of times in the past.

Johnny: Not much here except that his 2HS can beat out DC.

Sol: Has his uppercut to do the job and if RCed can probably go into a combo. It's also possible to Bandit Revolver it as well but that's MUCH more risky so most Sol players will stick to VV.

Ky: Vapor Thrust will beat DC outright but the after hit won't connect. Ky has other options but this is by far the safest one. Will give Ky a counter hit and a knockdown. If done late, both players will trade or Ky gets hit.

Jam: A fast character like Jam definitely has alot of moves to counter Venom with and that's including her parry. 2D>DC is really bad against Jam because she can counter with almost any of her normals not to mention the uppercut. 2D will lead to a knockdown and possibly a charge for Jam. Jam can also 236S>whatever. HS>DC is a bit safer since Jam can't hit you with her normals but her supers will connect with a counter hit though. The only one that doesn't seem to connect is the 632146+HS super.

Potemkin: Can pretty much Slide Head on reaction if you do 2D>DC. Harder against HS>DC though.

Dizzy: It's possible to punish with 2HS on 2D>DC but more likely than not, she'll end up trading with Venom or getting hit. Have to anticipate it pretty early in order to beat DC for a punish combo though.

Zappa: Ghost summon pretty much beats you out every time. Looks like it's not too hard to do on reaction. Even with a trade Zappa gets 3 souls. Beats out 2D>DC and HS>DC. Does not beat out c.S[2 hit]>DC

[Tigerofthewind]

--------------------Useful Combos--------------------

Off Throws:

Midscreen:

1. Throw>6P>6HS>Summon S/P/D>6HS>Summon>Summon - lands you a knockdown and 3 balls for okizieme

2. Throw>c.S(before 6 hits it was? to make them bounce off the wall)>Summon HSb>c.S>6P>6HS>623K>j.K>land>j.HS - Difficult, but lands a ball summon, a knockdown and pushes the opponent to the corner.

3. Throw>c.S>TK HS Madstruggle - your basic Reload combo. Does shit damage but lands a knockdown and gives time to set a ball or two.

4. Throw>6P>6HS>Summon S/P>6P>6HS>Dubious Curv - one of my favourite combos. Really reliable, moreso than a Carcass loop and lands a knockdown as well as a charged ball.

5. Throw>dashjump>j.K>j.S>j.HS>j.D>depending on distance from the wall and character weight, they will bounce off the wall allowing for 6P>6HS>Dubious - I personally like this combo, but it all depends on experience, knowing when to cancel j.HS>j.D and when to do it. It does get a knockdown in the corner as well as a couple of balls.

Will add more later.

[Tigerofthewind]

Yes, it is safe on Stagger hits. HS is the only move that I can think of where Venom staggers the opponent and is also the only move that will connect with Dubious Curve. Other moves don't connect and the opponent can block quite easily and if they're really good they can backdash to dodge it completely. Backdash window depends on the move and the distance. Pretty much the farther away you are from your opponent when doing Dubious Curve the easier it is for them to dodge it or possibly punish.

[Tigerofthewind]

What do you mean? I don't usually do it on OTG. Well I do but it's 2D>DC. The only reason it counts as OTG because DC is so slow. Do it if you want a charged ball. You can summon after it as well as it's safe because neutral tech and back tech are the only good options for them. You get a 2 ball formation with one ball being charged which is a plus. Most of the players I play with don't realize that you can tech out of it which is good for me. I wouldn't do OTG Dubious Curve in the corner though because if your opponent does realize they can tech then it can mean trouble for you as well as having alot of better options like just summoning or continuing the combo with SA FRC or CR depending how close you are. So it's pretty much best to do it when you're in the corner and you're able to get the random Sweep in and you want them to get off you or when you're at midscreen and you want to push them to a corner because then afterwards you have 2 balls ready to start zoning and space control.

[ky0n01]

hey tiger don't get yourself used to 2d> dubious curve summoning because it isn't safe if IBd. i always do far s> summon ball and if your opponent likes to jump after far s> you can double head morbid their asses :D after far s = free damage. are you still training 6p> hs> cr? if youve already given up then you shouldnt! you can do lots of damage(well not dat much but..) if you master it :D ill be posting some stuff here when im not lazy lol

[Tigerofthewind]

Ya, I've learnt from when I first played Venom that 2d> Dubious Curve is a bad idea. All the examples I've posted I have been punished before with. Still practicing 6P>6HS>CR but not that much. I've realized that my problem is in the initial start up. Either my 6P>6HS is too slow or 6HS>3 is too slow or a combination of the two. It's not far off though. Just like maybe 5 frames late, sometimes even less. But ya, it really helps when doing "damaging" midscreen combos. Something I'm lacking. It also really helps when doing 2D>SA>FRC>6P>6HS combos. My gameplay isn't too focused on damage though but rather mixups, crossups and guard meter raising.

[ky0n01]

My gameplay isn't too focused on damage though but rather mixups, crossups and guard meter raising.

6P> 6HS> CR loop isn't worth doing if...

1. your enemy is on the verge of death

2. if it doesn't end in a knockdown( corner: dubious curve for teh knockdown! )

3. you just wanted to do a combo vid

[Tigerofthewind]

Finally got it. Now just gotta practice it.

[ky0n01]

@tiger Good luck with your Venom I'm sure you'll become N-O like someday hahaha. As for me I've decided to switch to I-no.

[Tigerofthewind]

thanks. That's too bad you're not playing Venom anymore. I have a friend who plays I-No. Hard to play especially on D-pad because your fingers are pretty much raw afterwards. My friends and I did record some matches after the tournament this weekend. Maybe they'll get encoded. I don't know.

[ky0n01]

thanks. That's too bad you're not playing Venom anymore. I have a friend who plays I-No. Hard to play especially on D-pad because your fingers are pretty much raw afterwards.

My friends and I did record some matches after the tournament this weekend. Maybe they'll get encoded. I don't know.

Once you get the hang of it you won't have to put too much pressure on the d-pad.. Just like doing 6p>6hs> cr, you'll lose the timing if you press to hard.. So the key is to press with just the right pressure..

[Tigerofthewind]

Updated: Added a couple of new okizieme formations. Maybe add some pressure strings later on tonight.

[Tigerofthewind]

Updated Okizieme section. Might add combos later.

[ky0n01]

-------------------Shit People Can Punish You With-------------------

Anji's 6K into kou/sou and fuujin h.

Robo ky's dragon punch.

Buri's starship.

Pot buster.

[ShibuyaX]

thanks for the tips in this thread.....im tryin to learn venom cause im bored but anyways nice advice...

[Icolo-]

Yo, first post on here, are there any specific things to know when fighting Chipp, he's deadly and can be really annoying when whizzing above Venom's head during Oki. What's the best way to bait Volcanic Viper? FD too early then they will not do it and what is a good oki setup against Sol. VV tends to rip through my oki game (ball - mixup) sometimes trade hits. Also what is a good set of ball summons against Potemkin, through personal experience they either flick a ball back or slide head even if it means they will get hit by the ball. If the ball travels too slow they get reflected, too fast and I don't know how to follow up. Obviously I'm doing something wrong, I need to patch these things up. I read the matchup thread but somethings were missing.

[ky0n01]

Yo, first post on here, are there any specific things to know when fighting Chipp, he's deadly and can be really annoying when whizzing above Venom's head during Oki.

What's the best way to bait Volcanic Viper? FD too early then they will not do it and what is a good oki setup against Sol. VV tends to rip through my oki game (ball - mixup) sometimes trade hits.

Also what is a good set of ball summons against Potemkin, through personal experience they either flick a ball back or slide head even if it means they will get hit by the ball. If the ball travels too slow they get reflected, too fast and I don't know how to follow up.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong, I need to patch these things up. I read the matchup thread but somethings were missing.

You've probably fought 2 different Sols. Some ppl loves to VV a lot when you dash in but some just don't. Baiting VVs is a good tactic, but for venom, pressuring your opponent is better than baiting. 2s > summon s/p-ball works pretty well when you're zoning them or pressuring them on the corner. But if you're out of tactics and need to bait VVs you can summon a ball near their character while they are down <okizeme, dash summon ball> (most ppl VV subconciously), or N-O's H-ball okizeme(watch it on youtube), or when you're doing the carcass raid pressure they might attempt a VV to get out since the 2nd or 3rd time you do it they can get out. (if they didn't IB/FD)

[ajinkris]

Chipp. I don't get to fight against Chipp very much so I can't really give you any input. All I can say is that instead of going for setups just end all your landed hits into EX or HS Double Head Morbid. The damage is sick. I play like a little girl against Sol. Run away, set lots of balls, dash under him when he airdashes at you, and 6P his ass. Don't spam 2S and 5S too much cause you'll get VV'd from like full screen. Unless the Sol is very defensive (not likely), don't get carried away with your corner pressure, because much of it is VVable. Once they're a bit scared because you landed a combo, try to keep them in the corner but have a little distance. Against Potemkin learn to vary your ball speeds. Good ways to do this are by 5Ping a slow ball then HS Stinger Aiming. Don't use it too much though, cause they'll catch on quickly. You just have to learn to stagger your pokes while not getting caught up in Potemkin's mindgames.

[Icolo-]

Cheers for the input, come to think of it I'm a poke heavy Venom player that relies on Oki to win. I tend to get killed by characters with some form of invulnerable move (Slayer dandy/Sol VV) or outpoked (Bridget). I tend to lose if my plan A doesn't work. Guilty Gear is starting to fade into the void. So I want to do better before that happens!

[ajinkris]

Fade into the void? NEVER. GG is still held in very high esteem amongst fighting game players and is in both SBO and EVO despite Blazblue. I digress. Just because you're an oki/poke Venom doesn't mean you have to completely alter your style to beat certain matchups, you just have to know some trick setups that will mess up your opponent's reversal inputs and timings. Both crossups and ball-protected pressure will have your opponent thinking twice about spamming invulnerable reversals. To mess up reversal input, try this oki trick: knockdown (usually 1hit 2D) > K.ball > 669 (dashing jump) j.K > iad backwards > j.S j.S is Venom's crossup move of choice. The animation stays deceptively facing forward when you are effectively hitting behind you. As you dash-jump kick the K.ball, you will barely pass your opponent, which gives you the illusion of still being in front of him, especially with them focusing on the ball flying at their fallen body. Airdash backwards and hit them with a j.S, which can lead into a number of things, but for now you might just want to practice into > j.S > land > 2K > 2D > X.ball. Another method of preventing heavy VV usage is to toss some balls in front and around you as you move in towards a knocked down opponent. Two example formations of this are: S,P and K,P. The trick is to be far enough away for you to have room to let the balls fly in front of you, spaced out, before you move in. A simple way to perform this is allowing 2D to hit twice. The other important thing to do is to make sure you 66 before you 5P the balls, because if you don't 66 the balls will be hit in a different way (they'll split instead of fly forward straight). By 66 5Ping you push the balls forward slowly and in a parallel manner, covering yourself and causing them to have second thoughts about wake-up VV. Watch some N-O videos if you want a good example of a Venom that pokes and moves extremely well. I also just noticed that you don't play Accent Core. I don't really know the old ball formations, so I'm sorry I can't help you there

[ky0n01]

What the? So we aren't talking about AC VENOM? lol

[ajinkris]

Oh. I might have gotten confused between this thread and another thread. I thought Icolo- didn't play AC. My bad.

[Icolo-]

Cheers for the reply, I go write them down and study the material My main sparring partners are usually Johnny's and Zappa's, so bad habits of overpoking occur really often. I only play AC, havent touched RELOAD for years lol.