TITANIUM BEAST!!! Report post Posted March 21, 2011 The way DID is used in combos, I don't think it's a significant buff. The buff would have been more significant if it had retained the invincibility AND you could still combo off of it midscreen, cuz then you have select strings where you can IB and interrupt with DID for a decently damaging combo. Again, it was probably taken out because most players wouldn't bother with that and would just use CID due to how easy it was (go frame 1 invincibility, go!). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingVe Report post Posted March 21, 2011 It's been talked about in the other boards, but the nerf to C.ID's active frames is also pretty significant. Most notably against Tager, as he can now backdash C.ID. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WolfCrimson Report post Posted March 21, 2011 Well... all I can say is I'm happy for Tager... I feel he deserves it. It just means we have to play less mindlessly against Tager. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingVe Report post Posted March 21, 2011 Heck, C.ID is still far and away the best DP in the game. But now people might have to think slightly more about using it, which I for one, am okay with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WolfCrimson Report post Posted March 21, 2011 C. ID, best DP? I dunno, other DPs like Mu's (the Sims pointer thing), Hazama's (Stance b), Haku's (although it's not a pure DP, but it's really really good), Jin's (b,c and d dp) are really good too. I think I'm missing some as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingVe Report post Posted March 21, 2011 Well, all of those are good in their own right , if you must get plow through something, there is no better move than C.ID, even with it's nerfs. A close might be Makoto's as it can lead to okay damage in certain situations, but it lacks invulnerability, range, active frames, and speed over C.ID. Also, Haz 214D~B, Haku 2147B, and jin 623B are not really reversals, just attacks with invulnerability. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prokiller88 Report post Posted May 22, 2011 Jin's 623C and 623D is definitely a reversal move, but thats beside the point. The nerf to D ID is strange, tbh it was only useful against tager/hakumen as a reversal because the follow up into Berial edge only connected on them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted June 11, 2011 its not strange, It prorates much more better and with the new wallbound, you wouldnt have a reason to use C ID. On topic, we should list the normals that got a hitbox change since thats not listed.Im 150% sure that 5C and 6A changed ALOT compared to CS, I just couldnt pick opponent directly above me with 5C in CS1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 5, 2011 +3 is what the mook said, although given what it says in the notes it doesn't calculate right. It shouldn't even be positive at all. Alright, it's calculed in some weird manner. Deadspike -28f startup, hits on last frame. -Level 4 move, 18 blockstun. -Active 12 frames, and total 54F(I assume it counts the previous stuff, startup and active). So the "true" recovery is 14F. I think Ragna recovers as soon the first active frame hits, meaning he doesnt need to go through the Active ones, I think... Reinforced by: "attack disappears upon being hit" 18f(blck)-14(rcvery) = +4f adv. To become +3, I think Ragna uses an extra frame to cancel de active frames. Thats how I think it was calculated. Edit: Stuff's half wrong, sorry. Correctly stated here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HolyOrderChipp Report post Posted August 21, 2011 Maybe it's weird like HF and is always +3? Though... Never mind, then the recovery listed should be different. Also you guys are gonna come in here and tell me about how you've seen it be +more by timing it meaty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 21, 2011 Maybe it's weird like HF and is always +3? Though... Never mind, then the recovery listed should be different. Also you guys are gonna come in here and tell me about how you've seen it be +more by timing it meaty. Would be exactly the same thing. Deadspike would immediately recover on the last active frame and shit... It doesnt matter when it hits, if the opponent blocks, the advantage will always be the same in this case. Edit: Stuff's half wrong, sorry. Correctly stated here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HolyOrderChipp Report post Posted August 21, 2011 Well I guess the way to test it is to try to link 6C after a meaty normal hit Dead Spike... Or something of that nature. Something that won't normally hit. I would, but I'm away from my console. Though I guess there isn't any other plausible way it works... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KayEff Report post Posted August 21, 2011 > meaty normal hit deadspike > testing frame advantage/blockstun Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 21, 2011 Well I guess the way to test it is to try to link 6C after a meaty normal hit Dead Spike... Or something of that nature. Something that won't normally hit. I would, but I'm away from my console. Though I guess there isn't any other plausible way it works... Meaty Deadspike and Plain Deadspike are the same thing. As soon any of the active frame hits, Ragna will enter in recovery frames. It doesnt matter if it is the first or 179817891th frame. Otherwise, plain Deadspike would leave him at serious disvantage, and would be only useful as a meaty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WolfCrimson Report post Posted August 21, 2011 stuff. Wait, I don't understand your reasoning, how come meaty deadspike (i.e. hitting with the later active frames rather than first) doesn't give more frame advantage? What makes you think it doesn't work? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 22, 2011 Wait, I don't understand your reasoning, how come meaty deadspike (i.e. hitting with the later active frames rather than first) doesn't give more frame advantage? What makes you think it doesn't work? The dog projectile dissappears upon being hit, according to the frame data. Not sure if talks about literally on hit or the projectile itself dissappearing in contact with something, "Upon being hit". IMO, this probably means that as soon any of the 13 active frames hit, you'll jump straight into recovery. The active frames are not part of recovery... Think like this: DS is 28srtup/12actv/54totalrcvery(14f standalone actually). If it hits on 1st, 4th, 10th, 9th, it doesnt matter. You'll always recover in 14 frames, while the opponent is "locked" for 18 frames. It should be +4, but I *think* the game uses one more frame to enter in recovering state... The same logic can be applied to BK Deadspike, it hits 2 more times which means +2 vantage. That's why meaty Deadspike is sort of pointless. Edit: Stuff's half wrong, sorry. Correctly stated here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuminAbyss Report post Posted August 22, 2011 Wake-up, or meaty, Deadspike has the same use as a blocked Deadspike, can used to bait DPs or reversals during or after the move, or on characters without those sorts of tools, be used to start pressure while taking a primer at the very beginning. I kinda think of it the same as the blocked Deadspike, without the risk of being hit out of the start up frames like you sometimes have in a blockstring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kalamity-X Report post Posted August 22, 2011 Baiting DP's with Deadspike is so much fun. Barrel rolllllllllll. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TCSyd Report post Posted August 22, 2011 Well, I did a quick and dirty test in training. First Test: Dead Spike (hit) > 5C = no combo. 3C knockdown > meaty Dead Spike (hit) > 5C = combo. Second Test: Dummy set to block first hit only. Dead Spike (block) > 5A (hit). There's not enough frame advantage to lock the dummy into blocking. 3C knockdown > meaty Dead Spike (block) > 5A (block). Now there is. Conclusion: Meaty Dead Spike = greater +frames. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WolfCrimson Report post Posted August 22, 2011 The dog projectile dissappears upon being hit, according to the frame data. Not sure if talks about literally on hit or the projectile itself dissappearing in contact with something, "Upon being hit". IMO, this probably means that as soon any of the 13 active frames hit, you'll jump straight into recovery. The active frames are not part of recovery... Think like this: DS is 28srtup/12actv/54totalrcvery(14f standalone actually). If it hits on 1st, 4th, 10th, 9th, it doesnt matter. You'll always recover in 14 frames, while the opponent is "locked" for 18 frames. It should be +4, but I *think* the game uses one more frame to enter in recovering state... The same logic can be applied to BK Deadspike, it hits 2 more times which means +2 vantage. That's why meaty Deadspike is sort of pointless. "Disappears upon being hit" means when Ragna is hit before the projectile dog thing hits the opponent. So if ragna is hit during startup just before the active frames, the dog graphic still comes out, but it doesn't hit (i.e. it doesn't have a hitbox). Hell's Fang's description explicitly states that any time the move hits, it'll enter recovery, while Deadspike's description does not state that at all, so it's not right to say that it enters recovery no matter what active frame you hit with. Even testing it out, you can see that meaty deadspike leaves the opponent in blockstun longer after you recover, so meaty deadspike> dash 5B is gapless Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 22, 2011 I see. Then, I have no fucking idea how they calculated the adv. Sorry for stating so much bullshit. Should've tested first. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuminAbyss Report post Posted August 22, 2011 You weren't wrong, Tong, but how you calculated it assumes it's being used in a blockstring, and thus, they block on the first active frame. If you do a meaty Deadspike, they block on later active frames, but the blockstun remains, so they're stuck blocking while you recover normally (cause it is a projectile, and not a physical move that Ragna does such as Hell's Fang). In other words, regardless of what active frame they block, they're stuck in 18 frames of blockstun. However, you recover regardless of whether they block on the first active frame, or the last, at the same speed of 14 frames. 1 frame is used to to jump into recovery animation, so we're at a 3 frame advantage, if the first active frame is blocked. This advantage is based off using it in a blockstring, however, so meaty Deadspike works differently. Just to be sure, someone test if you can 5A Ragna if he attempts to use 5B after a blocked Deadspike, because I'm pretty sure that would get stuffed. You know what, this is confusing, let us just accept that is +3 and go back to raping primers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HolyOrderChipp Report post Posted August 22, 2011 But Lumin, we've been over this, it only works like that if... Wait, duh, I have it. Was gonna say something about how hitstop or blockstop makes it work out, but... No, we're all idiots: The recovery overlaps the active frames! Er, or did you mean that, Lumin? Anyway, it was the assumption that recovery came after all the active frames that made Tong miscalculate, I think. Because it acts as a projectile, it can be recovering and active at the same time. Isn't this how other projectiles are notated, with recovery coming as soon as startup is over? Only difference is that they don't specify active frames, because that varies and is indefinite in principle, if not in practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuminAbyss Report post Posted August 22, 2011 Because it acts as a projectile, it can be recovering and active at the same time. Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. You recover while it's still active, so meaty Deadspike is amazing if used correctly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 23, 2011 To sum it up, Deadspike acts like a standard projectile, like Hishouken. Ragna is not "part" of the active frames, he recovers as soon it is thrown. So, if it hits on the last frame, the 13th, total recovery will occur in 2 frames. On hit, it means monstrous +23 advantage and ~17 on block. A quick test made my aforementioned theory useless. 2D, meaty Deadspike> 6C actually worked. So yeah, HolyOrderChipp was indeed right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites