Question Regarding Grapplers

[sektr]

Not sure if this is even the right section for this but since it was the only general ASW section I could find I just took a guess at it.

I was just curious about why in GG, Potemkin is a high/top tier character, while in BB Tager is consistently bottom tier. What tools does Potemkin have that Tager doesn't that make him so much more viable in his respective game. Or does it simply have to do with the gameplay mechanics being more suited to grappler style gameplay?

I love me some grapplers, but I can't bring myself to play Tager against anyone other than low-mid calibre players because once everyone knows the matchup really well it's just WAY too much of an uphill battle.

[C0R]

Pot has a second jump. Tager don't.

IMO BB is a bit more mobility oriented and the loss of a second jump means Tager has some very, very, very bad matchups.

[smooshman]

I was just curious about why in GG, Potemkin is a high/top tier character, while in BB Tager is consistently bottom tier.

slidehead.

but seriously, Pot was an incredible grappler. If you consider the concept that a grappler is supposed to be great in there area (close range), and have a hard time getting in, then pot fits it then some. He not only destroyed at his optimum range (which was actually closer to mid range), but he had acutal ways in, and his ATG game was good, JD had obsurd priority. He also had scary anti air.

in comparison to tager, pot can actually get his best damage without having to rely on a random hail mary. there's probably more to say... but I don't really know the specifics.

[rtl42]

Not sure if this is even the right section for this but since it was the only general ASW section I could find I just took a guess at it.

look below the BlazBlue section of subforums.

[sektr]

Couldn't this also fit into the BB section as well though, seeing as it involves both games? That's the only reason I was confused, but thanks.

[Shining Aquas]

I think there's a combination of slidehead, double jump, and the game system favoring Potemkin in his game but not Tager respectively. What I mean regarding the system deal is the really just the difference between Okizeme and Ukemi, as minor as that be, as being one favorable and one unfavorable mechanic for the grappler. Since BB doesn't have that many "true" knockdowns, it is definitely harder to get some decent throw setups going since you don't actually know if your opponent is going to get straight up, bounce up, or roll in a direction (and when as well).

Another thing is that Tager has garbage damage outside of 360's, while most all of Pot's damage is fairly decent regardless of where it came from. Finally, I think since GG is a faster game than BB, it's worth noting that it requires slightly faster reflexes to react to throw setups.

[Zeromus_X]

Finally, I think since GG is a faster game than BB, it's worth noting that it requires slightly faster reflexes to react to throw setups.

Not to mention lolINSTANT STARTUP THROWS

I remember reading a really good post that had the differences between Pot and Tager and why Tager keeps getting thrown the bone because of lack of tools, game mechanics, etc (pretty much what's been said here already). Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: here it is: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?9993-BBCS-II-Loctest-Discussion-not-quot-Complaining-quot&p=750617&viewfull=1#post750617

[rtl42]

Couldn't this also fit into the BB section as well though, seeing as it involves both games? That's the only reason I was confused, but thanks.

you're right, i could've also moved it to the BB gameplay forum, but when i looked through your post, the way it came off sounded more like you were focusing on Potemkin. (on a second look at your first post, that's not true, but that's just how it looked the first time.)

[qwerty]

Not to mention lolINSTANT STARTUP THROWS

I remember reading a really good post that had the differences between Pot and Tager and why Tager keeps getting thrown the bone because of lack of tools, game mechanics, etc (pretty much what's been said here already). Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: here it is: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?9993-BBCS-II-Loctest-Discussion-not-quot-Complaining-quot&p=750617&viewfull=1#post750617

to elaborate a bit on what henaki said in that post, it's worth noting that the most significant difference between the two is that potemkin is actually threatening at close range, whereas tager isn't. a grappler doesn't necessarily need to be good at getting in, but a grappler does have to have a downright scary mixup game once he does get in; and this is what tager doesn't have.

360? even if he ends in gadget, that's hardly enough to keep you where he wants you. though it should be noted that he does have an anti-jump strat in this case (the galileo mixup, where you do 6A and if it's blocked you jump cancel, mash j.A and randomly insert an airthrow hoping for throw reject miss), his options after gadget are effectively the options he has at neutral; which is to say, not much.

sweep? this is bb nigga, i'm just gonna tech away and make you sad.

720? if you think you can land it, sure, why not?

now compare this to potemkin's close range game.

slidehead? you're not safe blocking even outside of pot buster range.

pot buster? hope you knew it was coming, otherwise you're eating 60% or more if he has meter.

sweep? now he gets a free mixup.

and this is just scratching the surface. not to mention he has actual anti-airs: 6P, 2S, 2HS, air buster, heavenly.

[aruren]

Tager's magnetism system is pretty effective in theory, which does work. But it's not as awesome as Potemkin's ways of getting in.

Slide Head (with its 6k feint), Hammer Fall (along with its P feint), Judge Gauntlet, Potemkin Buster FRC, decent combos from almost everywhere and better mixups.

If you ask me, Potemkin Buster >>>> Tager Driver ANY DAY. Specially with how some general mechanics are different with BB and GG.

Though personally I don't think he really sticks out that much in comparison to other players. He's certainly formidable, but hardly not unkillable.

Tager in the other hand relies heavily on magnetism to do most of his approach work, though hitting somebody with magnetism will probably mean they get blasted away from Tager. You have an advantage, but you have to work some more to get them back in optimal range.

Despite this, Tager's strength with his 360s and 720s kind of make up for his lack of mobility options. If up against an experienced grappler a player could be in a lot of trouble since zoning him out is pretty impossible projectile-wise. His invul and priority during 360s and 720s are pretty great and the damage race becomes rather hard to keep up with once hit by one or two of these. I don't think Tager's really lacking all that much, it's just that he doesn't really have a universally effective setup.

[axel]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13965272

In GGXX Potemkin can do what he can from 6:33 onwards.

[zdravkelja]

Oh, nightmares...