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Shoto

Axl v. Sol

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I play Sol and Axl, and there are a few things to note. Most characters can crouch under BR if done near, I.E., Sol does 5k, 2d, BR. You block 5k and 2d, BR goes over your head, you punish. This is useful against Sols who don't bother to hit-confirm. Another weakness of BR: you can be thrown (I think) if it's blocked close up. So don't let him get away with Bandit Revolver! Block low. You'll block 2d, his best normal, you'll block 2k, you'll block GV and then slaughter him. He doesn't have great overheads. His 5d may be fast, but it's short range. Edit: Remember, Riot Stamp is an overhead! Not that it matters much, because it's about as good as H Raisageki. And it's not as if he can combo off it. But still, it may look mid, but you gotta stand up to block it. 2k would probably go under it though.

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I play Sol and Axl, and there are a few things to note. Most characters can crouch under BR if done near, I.E., Sol does 5k, 2d, BR. You block 5k and 2d, BR goes over your head, you punish. This is useful against Sols who don't bother to hit-confirm. Another weakness of BR: you can be thrown (I think) if it's blocked close up. So don't let him get away with Bandit Revolver!

Block low. You'll block 2d, his best normal, you'll block 2k, you'll block GV and then slaughter him. He doesn't have great overheads. His 5d may be fast, but it's short range.

Eh. The only mixup you need to worry about from Sol is his tickthrow, which is a bitch for Axl because of his slow jump and lack of close-range pokes. Everything else is, like you say, low or slow.

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the sol vs axl matchup thread just started recently. does axl get anything if 2S, 5P, j.6P, or 6K if they are blocked?

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the sol vs axl matchup thread just started recently.

does axl get anything if 2S, 5P, j.6P, or 6K if they are blocked?

First off, I don't think are many reasons to ever do j.6P. It was good in Slash, but its time is over.

Secondly, the other three are mainly for AA, and have to be FD'd. While it doesn't let Axl do anything in particular (Except jump and maybe airthrow, or cancel into 2S-->6K until they land, but these options are very spacing specific) it makes them very hard to punish.

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They'll generally drop like rocks after blocking any of your long range things in the air, but the important thing they achieve if blocked is wasting a hell of a lot of their tension(assuming they hit twice) and putting you back in a neutral situation, which in at least half of his matchups is good for Axl.

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First off, I don't think are many reasons to ever do j.6P. It was good in Slash, but its time is over.

It doesn’t cost meter and there is no other move that can realy subsitute for it.

While I agree that it doesn’t get used too much as it actually needs some sort of long range air to air sitution (or a situations where it makes sense to air dash or jump using j.6P to catch them air to air before the get in your anti air range, which is just as rare) this move has it’s situational uses.

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I suppose, but it just seems like j.K, j.D, and Kokuugeki cover the same range collectively, and each individually are better on hit/block (and in the case of Kokuu, more likely to hit, since it has to be faultlessed.)

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kokugeki has a very unreliably hitbox for air to air combat and and even for some air to ground manouvers, while 6P covers the front of Axl and even gets active before it has fully extended.. not to mention that koku makes you drop dead considering momentum while j.6P still keeps it. So the moves are quite diffrent and do not apply to the same situations.

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Granted, it's a poke that covers its range better than any other move Axl has available, but the reward is just too low. It's only lv. 2, it can screw you over positioning-wise on hit if they tech forward, and is only cancellable into special

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hm.. ok I have to admit I'm not sure what it looks like if they tech towards you.. either no one ever tried or it didn't occur to me as a bad situation.. :psyduck: I will see that I try that out in practice with another player and see what could happen^^.

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hm.. ok I have to admit I'm not sure what it looks like if they tech towards you.. either no one ever tried or it didn't occur to me as a bad situation.. :psyduck:

I will see that I try that out in practice with another player and see what could happen^^.

I dunno, my only experience with it is that they get free momentum from the lv. 2 vacuum hit to be right on top of you with all their jump options.

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This place needs some action. I thought I'd share a scrub's thoughts to try and spark it.

Never throw out pokes at long range in attempt to keep away. Sol has many options to use at long range to try and punish whiffed 5P, Rensen, 2P, etc. While you may sometimes land a lucky hit that may not always lead to a combo, eating a CH Gunflame, Bandit Bringer, or Grand Viper will always lead to a combo being done on you.

Instead, throw the keep away strategy out the window, and just let Sol come to you. His high-low mixup isn't too good, however you want to watch out for his command throw. Block like a Jap and force him to try for that Wild Throw. Backdash it, and do your largest damage combo.

From there, if you score a knockdown, don't bother trying to apply okizeme. His upper makes it a guessing game for you if you try to start some kind of pressure. Unless you can hit safe jump-ins 100% of the time, it is too risky to do otherwise.

:eng101:

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I dunno, Backdashing can't really be done on reaction to good wild throw setups, since your backdash does bad things if you try it and he does something else (Too vulnerable and doesn't cover enough distance). Keepaway game should be played v. Sol, because "letting him come to you" can often lead to you getting rushed down and forced to deal with... well... wild throws, which do a lot of damage and are ridiculously hard for Axl to get out of. Just keep in mind that pokes should all be done AFTER Sol acts, and with the specific thing you want to beat in mind. Keeping optimal (Read, almost max) range can prevent you from getting killed by VV or whatever, but for the most part, just keep in mind that 5P, 2S, and 6K are almost exclusively for AA.

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From there, if you score a knockdown, don't bother trying to apply okizeme. His upper makes it a guessing game for you if you try to start some kind of pressure. Unless you can hit safe jump-ins 100% of the time, it is too risky to do otherwise.

I agree dealing with VV is hard on reversal... But it doesn't mean you should never pressure ! On the contrary, letting him get up safely is the worst you can do, as he won't be scared of getting knocked down. That would put you at great disadvantage, and you will feel really uncomfortable the whole time... Minimum okizeme should always be set. Baiting VV is a good option, as he will be punished behind (and he'll think twice about doing it again the next time...). Plus, Benten S FRC on okizeme can easily deal with reversals. Adding a late Raieisageki cross-up can be a nice plan too, especially if jump installed correctly. So if you got 25% meter, use it for the okizeme !

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Sol IAD goes over it. Free get in, if not CH.

Er... AA means you throw it at him when he's in the air, and in a position to get hit by it, not when he's on the ground and you think he might IAD afterwards.

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What should I do against Sol for okizeme? I tried things like 2k and 6H and always end up getting VVed. I'm tempted to say do nothing, but surely there's something I can do... Not sure if Axl's really an oki character, but what I see myself doing a lot recently is going for a knockdown then doing either 2k or 6h or the occasional TK bomber as a meaty. This often seems to get me thrown. So should I bait reversal throws/attacks with dash and FDC or is there something better I can do?

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What should I do against Sol for okizeme? I tried things like 2k and 6H and always end up getting VVed. I'm tempted to say do nothing, but surely there's something I can do...

Not sure if Axl's really an oki character, but what I see myself doing a lot recently is going for a knockdown then doing either 2k or 6h or the occasional TK bomber as a meaty. This often seems to get me thrown. So should I bait reversal throws/attacks with dash and FDC or is there something better I can do?

You can always go with a perfectly spaced 3P, which will clash with VV and barely hit him if he just blocked, then trying to pressure from there. This is safe, but it doesn't actually get you much. If you feel like having two-frame timing and awesome execution timing for ridiculous shenanigans, there's always the meaty Benten S FRC > holding back, using the hit pause on either you blocking VV or him blocking/getting hit by Benten to determine your next move. The real advantage to this is it gives you an excuse to be right next to him on wakeup, allowing for you to go for other oki, most notably TK bomber, which if not for this threat a Sol player would just look for and VV on reaction.

I should also point out that you probably should not be getting VVed out of 2K, as that is unreactionable. If he's just always throwing out VV, then just punish him for it. Run up and look like you're going to do something, but instead FD brake or backdash to block/dodge VV, and punish the crap out of him. He'll either stop doing that, or you'll get lots of free wins.

As for general oki, Axl's not great at it, but he does have lots of solid options. Between 3P, Bomber, and IAD j.S he gets massive advantage off of any real hit and even if the opponent guesses right and blocks Axl is still at frame advantage and can keep pressure, and the opponent basically can't throw you out of these. He also has a lot of lesser options like 2K, 2H, and 6H which aren't quite as good in most situations but serve as extra options, and have their own specific purposes (for instance, Ky is just really bad at dealing with a well-spaced, well-timed meaty 2K). Going for knockdown > rushdown doesn't work on every character, and there's some characters that even though it does work on it's not really ideal, and Axl probably needs to get that knockdown different against a lot of the characters it does work on, but in general that's a pretty solid strat.

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http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4006

There is a paragraph about dealing with reversals in the first post of that thread. Experiment with that stuff.

As sad as it is, Sols VV has so good reach it's next to impossible to reliably space the late meaty 3P so that you will be out of reach for VV once it retracts (and it won't clash since VV has so many invincibility frames).

Basically try to bait him but have a backup plan if he just sits there on wakeup. Once he takes your baits for guaranteed and just starts moving / poking after standing up, use meaties again, but try to trick him into thinking you will expect a VV anyway: Move in in the last possible moment for a meaty 5K / 2K to connect; use long range stuff etc.

After he learned that you use a 3P / 5K as a bait or even whiff a 3P / 5K so early, that you will still have enough time to go on with a meaty or pretty much near meaty 5K etc. (but if he has good reactions and steady nerves he won't fall for that)

btw.: Should you ever realize, that he does anticipate VVs once he thinks he recognizes a setup and believes you will attack anyway (like an early whiffed 5K or something) just block and punish a few times. He's just guessing and “punishing” you for having a much too simple pattern.

Then especially if you have him cornered or near cornered (so that he can't go back) you can always stay in about max range of 2P (so that you can use all your long range tools) and just see how he moves. This is an advantageous situation for your poke game and some players have problems dealing with that, especially those who tend to play reckless. You don't have to do oki every time.

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Er, I agree with Shoto, you can't really do much more than bait a VV except with something that FRCs near the beginning of the active frames (Not just benten. 2H works too. Just not as good a reward for hitting) or an air normal. Sure, 2K may be unreactable in the sense that the Sol player can't have confirmed that you're doing 2K by the time they VV, but a lot of Sols can react to you doing SOMETHING that quickly, so VV still beats 2K and it's not in your arsenal of VV-safe meaties. The best you can really do is get him to do it when you block a few times, get punished, and start second-guessing himself. Of course, blocking won't do you any good against VV RC, since it's now a mixup setup, but at least he can't do it without 50% meter.

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Do a meaty, deep j.H. He has three realistic options against this oki.

1. He can block. You can mixup or continue pressure here.

2. He can backdash. Your j.H whiffs. His backdash has 8 frames invulnerability, 8 more frames recovery. This gives you time to land and punish with a 2D -> Rensen. Have fun here.

3. He can DP. Your j.H goes through his invulnerable uppercut. If you timed the j.H correctly, meaning you did it very low to the ground by the time he got up, you land and block by the time his Viper goes active. Punish if he has less than 50% tension, expect the mixup otherwise.

(4?). I don't know what happens if he does Tyrant's Rave. Maybe someone can test it.

Easiest way to set up this oki is to achieve knockdown through one of his HS Benten combos. Of course, this is all much easier said than done. But hey, you decided to play Axl. :psyduck:

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Er, I agree with Shoto, you can't really do much more than bait a VV except with something that FRCs near the beginning of the active frames (Not just benten. 2H works too. Just not as good a reward for hitting) or an air normal. Sure, 2K may be unreactable in the sense that the Sol player can't have confirmed that you're doing 2K by the time they VV, but a lot of Sols can react to you doing SOMETHING that quickly, so VV still beats 2K and it's not in your arsenal of VV-safe meaties. The best you can really do is get him to do it when you block a few times, get punished, and start second-guessing himself. Of course, blocking won't do you any good against VV RC, since it's now a mixup setup, but at least he can't do it without 50% meter.

Eh, I never really meant that 2K is a safe thing to do against Sol, as it's pretty much not... But I really can't see it being reacted to. It goes active too fast; people just don't have 7-frame reaction time. Clearly, of course, if he's VVing things randomly he's not reacting to anything (except you rushing him, clearly) and you can just rush at him and then block and punish (unless he uses VV RC, in which case mixup, but whatever, it's sol). It doesn't appear to me that you and Shoto have actually said different things than I have; perhaps I phrased what I had to say poorly. Doesn't matter too much, I suppose.

(4?). I don't know what happens if he does Tyrant's Rave. Maybe someone can test it.

Tyrant Rave starts up a frame after H VV, so if you're avoiding that you should be avoiding Tyrant Rave, too.

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